wine users - Apr 2006 - Re: Re-proposal: web forums

Paul wrote:
> No seriously, I don't have the time to spend going out and monitoring a
> dozen forums.  I find mail lists much more convenient ... the
> information comes to me, I don't have to go to the information.
I feel the same.
I'd like to know exactly what it is that people find so convenient about
forums.
I'd also like to know why the wine list archives can't provide the
same convenience.

Two things come to mind:

 * Ability to apply a 'star' rating to topics (called
"sticky"?) that
are enlightened and/or of general interest.  (I think that designated
forum administrators perform this task.)

* Ability to post under a pseudonym (without going through the trouble
of finding a free e-mail provider, creating an account, figuring out
how their web interface works, etc.)

* ... What else?

Molle Bestefich wrote:
>Paul wrote:
>  
>
>>No seriously, I don't have the time to spend going out and
monitoring a
>>dozen forums.  I find mail lists much more convenient ... the
>>information comes to me, I don't have to go to the information.
>>    
>>
>
>I feel the same.
>I'd like to know exactly what it is that people find so convenient about
forums.
>I'd also like to know why the wine list archives can't provide the
>same convenience.
>
>Two things come to mind:
>
> * Ability to apply a 'star' rating to topics (called
"sticky"?) that
>are enlightened and/or of general interest.  (I think that designated
>forum administrators perform this task.)
>  
>
Actually, "sticky" posts are ones that don't or can't get
deleted
>* Ability to post under a pseudonym (without going through the trouble
>of finding a free e-mail provider, creating an account, figuring out
>how their web interface works, etc.)
>
>* ... What else?
>
How about the ability to post/read/respond to messages even when you're
not at your own computer?  Many people on Yahoo Groups, for instance,
don't even have a computer at home and access their groups from works or
library computers.  To my mind, this is probably the most important
advantage a forum has over an email list.

David Shaw

Segin wrote:
> People get upset with me cause I won't reveal my real name,
That, or maybe just because you act like an asshole :-).

n0dalus wrote:
> Some ideas:
> - Threads get shown in usual bulletin board style
What exactly is that?

I agree that the pipermail interface is nothing short of absolutely horrible.
I don't think I can emphasize that enough.

It's broken too, as is evident if you try one of the top links on this page:
http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/
I'll bet noone has noticed because it's so inadequate that noone uses
it.
> - Moderators can move threads from the main area to other sections.
It would be nice to be able to filter out the noise.

I wonder how automated that should be.  We could:
 - star interesting topics
 - apply a slashdot-like rating system
 - sort by how many replies a posting got
 - sort by average number of vowels per word... whatever :-)

Another great boon would be a google-ish search engine able to search
both mailing lists, the ticket system and the documentation and
present the results in a comprehensible way.  Something like the
little miracle that Trac accomplishes, eg.:
http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/search
> Threads can be created by users directly in user-writable sections
Probably not too hard to implement.

We could allow pseudonyms too, by having a 'hide my email address'
checkbox and obfuscating users email addresses and supplying them with
a <random>@obfuscated.winehq.org address.

Anything the user enters in the hypothetical web interface would seem
to come from that address, anything going to that address would be
forwarded to the user.  There should be a confirmation email the first
time a user posts, so we at least know that his real email address
(that we hide) exists.

I'm not even sure a password would be needed for obfuscated access -
since the user is the only person knowing his real email address, that
could suffice as login information when posting to the lists through
the web interface.
> - Users on the forum can send messages to other users in a similar fashion
One of the points of avoiding phpBB or similar would be to keep the
communication in one place.  So I don't think we want to encourage
private communication between users by letting the web interface be
some kind of IM system, if that's what you propose.
> - Reply notifications can be configured by the user to be sent to their
personal address
Hmm, I guess you could conjure up something like that.

It should crawl the list archives and forward postings that the user
would like to watch.

And at the same time we need to block Cc's sent from people on the
list to <random>@obfuscated.winehq.org from going through, since the
crawler will forward the appropriate postings.

Doesn't sound bad at all.
> - Posts are all plain text, with optional attachments (some reasonable
limits apply)
Sounds good, I hate those pesky icons and and animated smileys
littering phpBB forums :-).


All this makes me wonder if someone hasn't already invented some fancy
software to make mailing lists more available to the average Joe User.
 Anyone know?

Molle Bestefich wrote:
>Paul wrote:
>  
>
>>No seriously, I don't have the time to spend going out and
monitoring a
>>dozen forums.  I find mail lists much more convenient ... the
>>information comes to me, I don't have to go to the information.
>>    
>>
>
>I feel the same.
>I'd like to know exactly what it is that people find so convenient about
forums.
>I'd also like to know why the wine list archives can't provide the
>same convenience.
>
>Two things come to mind:
>
> * Ability to apply a 'star' rating to topics (called
"sticky"?) that
>are enlightened and/or of general interest.  (I think that designated
>forum administrators perform this task.)
>
>* Ability to post under a pseudonym (without going through the trouble
>of finding a free e-mail provider, creating an account, figuring out
>how their web interface works, etc.)
>
>  
>
People have problems with pseudonyms, I am evidence to that. People get 
upset with me cause I won't reveal my real name, and act as if I am 
discredible cause of such.
>* ... What else?
>
>
>
>  
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-users/attachments/20060422/e34aca4e/attachment-0001.htm

Molle Bestefich wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>   
>> No seriously, I don't have the time to spend going out and
monitoring a
>> dozen forums.  I find mail lists much more convenient ... the
>> information comes to me, I don't have to go to the information.
>>     
>
> I feel the same.
> I'd like to know exactly what it is that people find so convenient
about forums.
> I'd also like to know why the wine list archives can't provide the
> same convenience.
>
> Two things come to mind:
>
>  * Ability to apply a 'star' rating to topics (called
"sticky"?) that
> are enlightened and/or of general interest.  (I think that designated
> forum administrators perform this task.)
>
> * Ability to post under a pseudonym (without going through the trouble
> of finding a free e-mail provider, creating an account, figuring out
> how their web interface works, etc.)
>
> * ... What else?
You can't reply to the archives.. you still have to sign up for the 
mailing list.  I don't like having my inbox flooded with emails from the 
devel and bugs lists.  If I go to a forum, I see a topic once and read 
all of the posts to that topic if I want to, whereas I have to delete 
every email I dont want/need to read and then delete it from the trash 
(or shift+del to avoid the trash)..  I'd prefer the forums because I can 
turn off email notifications and then if my email changes, I just change 
it in 1 place instead of 2 or more like with the lists, and if I cant 
check my email for several days, I dont have to sort thru 700 emails, I 
just read thru the forum posts.

It's a lot more convenient..

Now sure I like having the emails sent to my inbox, and just leave 
Thunderbird open, but sometimes I wish I could just browse for it.

Tom

P.S. It's easier to link to a forum post in the wiki than to a ML 
thread, because you have to click several extra links to find the thread 
and/or individual post in the ML archives, whereas you can search for 
the post and get a relatively small list of threads on a forum.

Jeff Vian wrote:
>>How about the ability to post/read/respond to messages even when
you're
>>not at your own computer?  Many people on Yahoo Groups, for instance,
>>don't even have a computer at home and access their groups from
works or
>>library computers.  To my mind, this is probably the most important
>>advantage a forum has over an email list.
>>
>>David Shaw
>>
>>    
>>
>
>Web mail accounts such as yahoo or msn and the like do not tie you to
>your home computer either.
>
>
>  
>
Indeed - but many offices and libraries firewall such sites.  And they
all have a fairly limited capacity.

Personally, I like the way Yahoo Groups does it - it's effectively an
email list, but with a relatively effective web interface within which I
can usually find relevant archived posts within a couple of minutes.

The Wine-users etc. archives, on the other hand, I find totally
impenetrable and impossible to find relevant posts from the past in any
reasonable amount of time.

I'm not knocking those who designed it, I'm sure that, to them, it's
totally transparent and the easiest system in the world to use - I know,
I've designed Grud alone knows how many forms, all of which have made
perfect sense to me, but many of which have extracted the response
'Eh?!' from the intended users and I feel this is probably the same kind
of situation  :-)

Fora (posh, eh  ;->  ) and email lists each have their pros and cons and
those who like one tend to dislike the other.  I feel this is a debate
which is never going to reach a conclusion which will satisfy everyone
(emacs or vi?  Mac or PC?  Anyone?  ;->  ) so all I will say further on
the matter is this - *please* add a search function to the archives and
then at least *I'll* be happy  :-)

David Shaw

Le dimanche 23 avril 2006 ? 12:41 -0500, Tom Spear (Dustin Booker,
Dustin Navea) a ?crit :
> But I still want to get certain threads delivered to my mailbox, so I 
> suffer thru all the ones I don't read.  Where if I subscribe to a forum
> thread, then I get all posts to that thread in my mailbox (how i like 
> it) and can click a link in the email that takes me directly to that 
> thread (like bugzilla does for its bugs) so I can post.
What about using your mail client and its ability to access nntp
mailing-lists ?

I'm subscribed to many mailing lists but none are configured to send me
a copy of the messages to my mailbox; I just access them like normal
(separate) mailbox, I can see them threaded or not, search and filter
messages, etc. It's faster and more convenient than using a web forum.

Regards.

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 191 bytes
Desc: Ceci est une partie de message
	=?ISO-8859-1?Q?num=E9riquement?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_sign=E9e?Url :
http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-users/attachments/20060424/0ecd0749/attachment-0001.pgp

Jonathan Ernst wrote:
> Le dimanche 23 avril 2006 ? 12:41 -0500, Tom Spear (Dustin Booker,
> Dustin Navea) a ?crit :
>
>   
>> But I still want to get certain threads delivered to my mailbox, so I 
>> suffer thru all the ones I don't read.  Where if I subscribe to a
forum
>> thread, then I get all posts to that thread in my mailbox (how i like 
>> it) and can click a link in the email that takes me directly to that 
>> thread (like bugzilla does for its bugs) so I can post.
>>     
>
> What about using your mail client and its ability to access nntp
> mailing-lists ?
>   
How do you propsose I access the NNTP threads?  My ISP's news server has 
been down forever, and as far as I can tell, google only lets you access 
the newsgroups thru the browser thru their site..

Joseph Garvin wrote:
> 1. They can bookmark forum posts.
>
> 2. Webmail interfaces are very popular but often suck at threading
> mailing lists.
Good points.
> 3. phpbb has become so widespread that signing up for a forum is
> something that they know how to do and are familiar with.
>
> 4. phpbb is so widespread that it's a familiar interface.
Bull, if you ask me.

Nobody will care whether it's phpBB or something that provides the
exact same features and solutions.  If anything, I think it's easy to
point out a better direction than what phpBB does.  You could start by
stripping away the ugly theme, going minimalistic with icons and
colors.  And make it less clique-ish-prone.
> 5. Subscribing to a mailing lists requires setting up filters so that
> you're main inbox isn't flooded with posts.
>
> 6. A forum has a throttleable amount of involvement. I don't want to
> have to subscribe to a mailing list to just ask one question and then
> probably never participate again, and then have to go through the whole
> sign up process again on the off chance that I do have another question.
>
> 7. Nobody whines when you attach large images or files.
Good points.

I like #7, haven't heard that one before :-).
> 8. It is easily searchable, and unlike the giant "wine-users" or
> "wine-devel" lists, you can narrow your search to specific
subforums.
>
> 9. Posts that aren't active get filtered down to the bottom. Browsing
> the web interface to the mailing list just gives me a giant topic dump
> for the last month.
>
> 10. Sticky posts can alert users to the presence of the FAQ and answers
> to popular problems (like, click here for the WoW patch).
Fine points..
> I wouldn't worry about communication between the lists and the
> forums at all.
I'm personally not convinced.

I don't like sending people to more different places than we already
are for no apparent good reason...
> Doing all the work to improve the mailing list web interface seems like
> a bad idea when you can just spare yourself all the work and use
> something like phpbb. Why reinvent the wheel?
phpBB is a wheel..
What I proposed is more of an anti-gravity device :-).

I agree that it might be overkill to make our own software if Google
Groups can provide most of what people are looking for.  (I'm not sure
that it can, though.)

On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 17:30 +0200, Molle Bestefich wrote:
> I'd like to know exactly what it is that people find so convenient
about forums.
A lot. If forums are made, they should be user, not developer, targeted.
Normal users, as opposed to power hackers, prefer forums for a variety
of reasons:

1. They can bookmark forum posts.

2. Webmail interfaces are very popular but often suck at threading
mailing lists.

3. phpbb has become so widespread that signing up for a forum is
something that they know how to do and are familiar with.

4. phpbb is so widespread that it's a familiar interface.

5. Subscribing to a mailing lists requires setting up filters so that
you're main inbox isn't flooded with posts.

6. A forum has a throttleable amount of involvement. I don't want to
have to subscribe to a mailing list to just ask one question and then
probably never participate again, and then have to go through the whole
sign up process again on the off chance that I do have another question.

7. Nobody whines when you attach large images or files.

8. It is easily searchable, and unlike the giant "wine-users" or
"wine-devel" lists, you can narrow your search to specific subforums.

9. Posts that aren't active get filtered down to the bottom. Browsing
the web interface to the mailing list just gives me a giant topic dump
for the last month.

10. Sticky posts can alert users to the presence of the FAQ and answers
to popular problems (like, click here for the WoW patch).

Nobody on wine-devel should be concerned that they can't read a phpbb in
mutt. Wine forums would be about centering users discussion in one
place. I wouldn't expect the moderators to be actual wine developers,
but people pulled from the community. The Ubuntu forums do this. The
Ubuntu developers do not do much direct posting and everything works
great. I wouldn't worry about communication between the lists and the
forums at all.

There is also a tendency for users that read both to arise and post
important stuff back on the forums. For example, Stefan's ddraw->d3d
patch would probably get immediately posted by someone, despite starting
on the list. The community just takes it and runs with it.

I think wine forums would get a lot more people running wine
succesfully. Right now if you want to run World of Warcraft on wine, you
need to hunt down a specific popular thread on gentoo.org. It'd be a lot
easier for all wine users if they could just go to one place.

Doing all the work to improve the mailing list web interface seems like
a bad idea when you can just spare yourself all the work and use
something like phpbb. Why reinvent the wheel?