Hey folks. I know tags aren't anyone's favorite subject, but I'd like to make a suggestion for a tag that I think is quite important -- a quality tag. So important, I think, that oggenc really ought to automatically create one when the -q option is used. As all of us know, in the Vorbis codec the quality of the stream is often a more important (and more informative) value than the stream's nominal bitrate. Yet the latter is tagged and the former not -- this is quite a shame. Sitting around on #vorbis at opn, I notice that we get a lot of people coming in asking for explanations about what -q n means for any value of n. They have no real intuitive concept, I feel, because they haven't knowingly heard different quality outputs unless they've done some tests themselves. So people make graphs against bitrate and try to explain it that way... which is really largely useless, IMHO. Every day that goes by, more and more people are coming to Ogg Vorbis and more and more people are encoding. With projects like giFT promising a robust p2p network in the near future, there will be a lot of sharing of ogg files -- in fact, there already is -- and people who haven't yet encoded will benefit greatly from "Hey, I like how this sounds. What quality is it?" and being able to check. I'm not the only person to ask about this -- some others have on #vorbis -- and I think it would be a real godsend. Somebody should just make it official, and add the necessary code to oggenc to have it automated. I propose: QUALITY=<number> Hope some of you agree. -- Alexander Poquet | We leave the obvious generalizations to the atpoquet@ucdavis.edu | reader. -- Israel Herstein Use of PGP preferable in reply | Use Linux! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis/attachments/20020130/54515e97/part-0001.pgp
Alexander Poquet wrote:> Hey folks. > > I know tags aren't anyone's favorite subject, but I'd like to make a suggestion > for a tag that I think is quite important -- a quality tag. ><p>Seconded. It would be really cool if it showed up in Winamp as well... <p><p><p><p><p><p> -- <\___/> / O O \ \_____/ FTB. <p><p><p><p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Alexander Poquet wrote:> QUALITY=<number> > > Hope some of you agree.I absolutely agree, although we don't "really" need a quality tag. The nominal bitrate already shows roughly what quality level has been used, e.g. 160032 (160kbps) for q5, 80kbps for q1, etcetc. More important than that is whether bitrate management has been used or not. I'd rather go for something like an ENCSETTINGS tag or whatever (let's fight over that for 2 months, please :) ) and put the quality related commandline parameters in that. (E.g. ENCSETTINGS=-b 96 -M 105, ENCSETTINGS=-q 3.45, ...) It shouldn't be too difficult for encoders with graphical interfaces to figure out what commandline would have been used. Its advantages are that it's short, readable to humans that know oggenc, it CAN be used by players to form more human readable sentences like those from the next example in any language. Not so good about it is that it's not "really" human readable ... it's knowledge about commandline parameters that has to be there to be able to understand it, and no player exists that would create nice sentences, yet (and support for it can take quite a while). Another suggestion would be to make it very human readable, to let the encoder puzzle together valid sentences. Stuff like that: ENCODED_USING=[ True VBR | Managed bitrates ] at [ quality level <n> | <n> kilobits ] [ . | , limited to [ max. <n> kbps ] [ . | (and) min. <n> kbps. ] ] D'uh, does that make sense to anyone? I think this is far from proper BNF ... ;) The advantage of the big human readable thing is that those users who never touch the command prompt would know what the fuzz is all about. What I don't like about it is that this long sentence makes it pretty exhausting if you feel like going through a whole bunch of Ogg files. A less pretty but maybe more readable version would be something like ENCODED_USING=[ True VBR | Managed bitrates ] (ENCSETTINGS) This means I'd put the encoding parameters fom idea number 1 in brackets behind the mode. Idea number 2 and 3 have both the disadvantage that they're always in English. I don't really care about it, because I understand it. :) If this should be a major problem for some people, I'd still suggest idea number 1, i.e. an ENCSETTINGS compatible tag. In a second thought, I'd go for ENCSETTINGS myself - this would be the most flexible and easy solution. We don't have an 1.0 release, so ironing out all scary technical things for the dumb user market shouldn't be a top priority yet. <p>Moritz -- _______________________________________________________________________ "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 31 January 2002 01:58, you wrote:> I know tags aren't anyone's favorite subject, but I'd likeI think this is a good idea. Just please don't post hundreds of angry mails about it as it is usual when somebody starts talking about tags on this list. ;-) - -- - -M - --- Magnus von Koeller --- email: magnus@vonkoeller.de address: Georg-Westermann-Allee 76 38104 Braunschweig Germany phone: +49-531-2094886 mobile: +49-179-4562940 web: http://www.vonkoeller.de -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8WR8BUIvM6e6BgFARAqaoAJ0WlR2WydowuehNzTrlaIhWxBkvuwCfTsQr tb/lf5o5PTPTSeIxIh+i+3A=ARN+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
> I'd rather go for something like an ENCSETTINGS tag or whatever (let's > fight over that for 2 months, please :) ) and put the quality related > commandline parameters in that.This may be encoder version specific -- you would have to include its version, too. As the encoder evolves and more different command lines exist, this may get very messy.> Another suggestion would be to make it very human readable, to let the > encoder puzzle together valid sentences. Stuff like that:What about something in-between? I would suggest XML; use tags for whatever encoding parameter you need, and do it with some abstraction from the real command line parameter to remove the dependency from the encoder version. This would be human readable as it is (at least for the experts), but it may easily transformed to a 'dummy user cleartext'. So long Friedrich <p>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----> Von: Moritz Grimm [mailto:gtgbr@gmx.net] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 31. Januar 2002 09:47 > An: vorbis@xiph.org > Betreff: Re: [vorbis] Quality & Tags--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 04:58:09PM -0800, Alexander Poquet wrote:> Hey folks. > > I know tags aren't anyone's favorite subject, but I'd like to make a suggestion > for a tag that I think is quite important -- a quality tag.This got much discussion... as does everything about tags. This is my personal stance on the subject, and I don't necessarily mean it to be taken as gospel: This is up to the encoder app (as every app will have a different way of setting up the encode process, not to mention that int he future not every encoder will be based on libvorbis), but it's actually a reasonable thing. It does pass the 'something I'd jot down on the recording' test. Int he case of oggenc, it could simply be the quality related arguments passed ont eh command line. Monty --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
sorry <sheepish grin> Andy Moz wrote> > Andy wrote: > > i was just thinking something like maybe putting atext file with> > the same name in the same folder as the song, thenif you're sending> > it online, these two would be zipped into any kindof compressed> > archive, and the peer-to-peer software would bedesigned to look in> > these compressed archives and show you the textfile inside this> > archive before you download the song. > > But this is the Vorbis list, where we talk about themusic> compression, so isn't that sort of thing a bit quiteoff topic? I> mean, you're talking about formalising the humaninteraction before> you swap files, but this list is about how tocompress music.> > Moz > > > --- >8 ---- > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to'vorbis-request@xiph.org'> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.No subject is needed.> Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will beignored/filtered. Andy (Dale) andycool22@peoplepc.com AndyCool22 on AIM ICQ # 76178574 MSN Messenger andycool22@msn.com Yahoo! Messenger - andycool22 ________________________________________________ PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.