In case there are any Debian developers around here, I wanted to point out message <20020828154322.GA15114@chulak.naquadah.org> on the debian-devel list this morning. Another Debian developer is proposing to submit an mp3->vorbis transcoding program for inclusion in Debian. I have objected to this on the grounds that the resulting vorbis files will sound like crap, and I have also pointed out that the vorbis developers have a low opinion of this sort of transcoding (I think this is an accurate representation of the developers' views -- if not, I apologise for the mistake). I also observed that if such transcoding is really necessary, it's as trivial as decoding the mp3 to .wav and then vorbis-coding the .wav, therefore a dedicated program isn't really worthwhile. It might help for other Debian developers who are involved with vorbis to make their views known in this thread on debian-devel. Thanks. The thread can be found here in the list archives: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2002/debian-devel-200208/msg01794.html Craig -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis/attachments/20020828/d985c953/part-0001.pgp
> apologise for the mistake). I also observed that if such transcoding is > really necessary, it's as trivial as decoding the mp3 to .wav and then > vorbis-coding the .wav, therefore a dedicated program isn't really > worthwhile.Except that you lose any comments from the original file. Hopefully the transcoder would add a tag stating that it sounds crappy because it started life as an mp3. At any rate I agree you should leave your mp3s 'AS IS' and only oggenc your *.wav, *.au, and *.aiff files. -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:49:34 -0700, Craig Dickson wrote:> debian-devel list this morning. Another Debian developer is proposing to > submit an mp3->vorbis transcoding program for inclusion in Debian. I > have objected to this on the grounds that the resulting vorbis files > will sound like crap, and I have also pointed out that the vorbis > developers have a low opinion of this sort of transcoding (I think thisIn this case the quality issues are irrelevant since the patent royalties prohibit (free) distribution of such a tool anyway. Software that transcodes mp3 to vorbis is still utilizing an mp3 decoder of some sort. David ------- David Parker <david@neongoat.com> Neon Goat Productions http://www.neongoat.com 0xF90FFFE5 / F362 51F7 6D51 85EB AF68 75B9 D29B 1AFC F90F FFE5 ------- --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Wed, 2002-08-28 at 11:49, Craig Dickson wrote:> debian-devel list this morning. Another Debian developer is proposing to > submit an mp3->vorbis transcoding program for inclusion in Debian. I > have objected to this on the grounds that the resulting vorbis files > will sound like crap, and I have also pointed out that the vorbis > developers have a low opinion of this sort of transcoding (I think this > is an accurate representation of the developers' views -- if not, I > apologise for the mistake). I also observed that if such transcoding is > really necessary, it's as trivial as decoding the mp3 to .wav and then > vorbis-coding the .wav, therefore a dedicated program isn't really > worthwhile.(Disclaimer: I'm not a Debian developer.) You are correct that generally developers and "power-Vorbis" users have a generally low opinion of transcoding. We discourage such activity because transcoding: * Lowers the quality slightly of the resulting file. (Assuming a comparable quality setting is used on the Ogg file.) * Does not show off the improved quality Vorbis provides. * Produces files that, if they were to be released into general distribution via file trading networks, would not accurately reflect the excellent quality/bitrate ratio achievable with Vorbis. ("These Vorbis files sound like my MP3s!") Many users do not realize these things, assuming that lossy coding works like the Zip and friends. So part of the transcoding objection is just an excuse to perform "user education." However, if one really understands the above caveats, I personally don't see why transcoding should be so taboo. I can see two useful cases: * Compatibility with hardware/software -- This is more likely a reason to transcode from Ogg to MP3 and not the other way around. * Ethical reasons -- Some people may not wish to use decoders of dubious legal standing. I imagine this is the reason that Debian would be concerned about MP3s. As another poster already pointed out in this thread, a transcoder would have the same licensing issues that a decoder would have, so Debian would gain no additional "purity" by including one. Assuming that issue can be worked around, I would personally like to see a transcoder that both warns users of the problems with transcoding AND automatically marks the output files as transcoded so they can be readily identified. Are there any suggestions for a "unofficial standard" transcoding marker? Perhaps just a Vorbis comment: TRANSCODED=Freeform string describing previous encoding Example: TRANSCODED=192kbps MP3 --- Stan Seibert <p><p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Stan Seibert wrote:>Are there any suggestions for a "unofficial standard" transcoding >marker? Perhaps just a Vorbis comment: > >TRANSCODED=Freeform string describing previous encoding > >Example: > >TRANSCODED=192kbps MP3 >Stan, i think your message is the most very reasonable, and a good idea. I'd like to add a couple of thoughts. Frist, I think it is now evident that people want to, and *will* transcode mp3's into Ogg Vorbis files. Fighting this fact and saying it should never be allowed to happen is not productive whatsoever, IMO. So what is to be done? The Ogg Vorbis community should provide users with a way to transcode mp3's into Vorbis. Why? Because it would give us an opportunity to educate the users. If you imagine a future where people are moving away from mp3's in great numbers, and transcoding their mp3's into Vorbis, then I think that it's better if the Vorbis community is providing the tools, rather than someone else. If the 'standard' tool is a Xiph tool, then people will just use the Xiph tool, instead of an independantly produced tool. This would give us the opportunity to educate users about what transcoding does to the sound files and make them think twice before going ahead. Secondly, if the transcoder generated a TRANSCODED flag, hopefully the TRANSCODED tag would become standard, and any other transcoders (from MusicMatch for example) would adopt the same policy of generating the TRANSCODED flag. Playback software might also flag the file on playback to alert the user. The issue here, as I see it, is that the Vorbis community feels like they would be cheated if transcoding were common. The public's opinion of Vorbis would be lessened not by the fault of the codec itself, but because of foolish users. Thus, Vorbis would be cheated out of support because on the false assumption that a transcoded file is the best quality Vorbis offers. However, because transcoding is possible, and also unpreventable, I think the best solution would be to mitigate the negative effects of this, by encouraging the use of a TRANSCODED tag, to inform people that this is not a true example of Vorbis' capability. So let's imagine a user (male :) who wants to transcode mp3's to Vorbis: User wants to transcode, but doesn't have the tools. So he searches google, or something similar. He finds a page, that links him to the tool at Xiph's webiste. However, once there he finds a stern warning, telling him that unless he really know what he's doing, he should not do this. He reads, and understand what he's getting into, and goes ahead. The resulting Ogg Vorbis files aren't of the best quality, but reason is made known by the TRANSCODED tag. This is getting long, so i'll stop myself here. :) But I think that the above situation would be much better than the current situation, which seems to be that the user doesn't know what he's doing, and when he asks, he get curt, perhaps harsh answers which say "Don't do it", without a full explanation. And then if he does do it, no one (meaning you and I) has any way of identifying the output. Jonathan P.S. A TRANSCODED tag would also be useful for identifying all sorts of transcoding that will occur, like DVD (AC3) to Vorbis, or MiniDisc to Vorbis. The situation driving both these transcodings are pretty easily concieved. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
if u get the lame mp3 decoder is that free? <p>¸_./'\._¸ ¸.·¤**¤·.¸.·¤**¤·.. *·. .·* *Andy Dale* /.·*·.\*.·¤**¤·.¸¸.·¤**¤·.* andycool22@peoplepc.com AndyCool22 on AIM ICQ # 76178574 MSN Messenger andycool22@msn.com Yahoo! Messenger - andycool22 ________________________________________________ PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Stan Seibert wrote:> Are there any suggestions for a "unofficial standard" transcoding > marker? Perhaps just a Vorbis comment: > > TRANSCODED=Freeform string describing previous encoding > > Example: > > TRANSCODED=192kbps MP3I'd rather see this done more generally, e.g.: FILE_HISTORY=Encoded with OggEnc-1.0 (libvorbis-1.0) FILE_HISTORY=Monoized with VorbisTweak-0.01 --mono FILE_HISTORY=Peeled with aardappelschilmesje-0.2 --max=36 or, for your case, FILE_HISTORY=Transcoded from MP3 (CBR, 192kbps, M/S stereo) <p>Comments? (no pun intended :) ) Segher --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 09:49:34AM -0700, Craig Dickson wrote:> In case there are any Debian developers around here, I wanted to point > out message <20020828154322.GA15114@chulak.naquadah.org> on the > debian-devel list this morning. Another Debian developer is proposing to > submit an mp3->vorbis transcoding program for inclusion in Debian.Others already pointed out possible licensing issues. I'll address the 'transcoding is bad' issue. I have in mind a concession to human nature: Folks are going to transcode, and most are going to transcode for not-terribly-practical reasons. I suggest that if we do make a transcoder, it should be Official and only allow ahlving the estimated bitrate. Eg, 128kbps mp3 -> q0 and so on. This way, yes, people will still encode crappy mp3s to Ogg, but at least they'll get smaller files for about the same quality, and we won't get mail along the lines of 'you d00ds sux0r. I turned all my 128kbps mp3s into Ogg and they're the same size." or "they're just as big and don't sound better." Monty --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.