Vorbis - Jan 2001 - Bit pealing and streaming

Hi:

Since I'm not a programmer and just want to get stuff worked out properly
in my head, I'm posting this here.

I just want to be sure I have all the concepts regarding vorbis and high
sampling rates at low bit rates all sorted out.  Note that this will
involve questions, some of which I've been looking for answers to for some
time.

The way I understand things is that vorbis is meant to be able to do
44.1khz audio at bit rates as low as 16 kbps per channel, at least in
theory (see vorbis.com & vorbis.org).  However, I am led to understand that
encoding streams below a certain data rate at 44.1khz will involve incoding
at a higher rate and then pealing off bits in order to obtain the desired
data size.  Is this correct?  If so, is this size point yet known or will
this have to be determined as development proceeds?

OK, now suppose you run a server like icecast 2.0, for example.  Will it be
possible for the server to receive a suitably encoded vorbis stream at a
high rate, say 128kbps, and then serve up streams at the right rate for
various connections?  (e.g. pass the full stream on to people using high
bandwidth connections, strip it down for ISDN and strip it down still
further for modem users, all on the one server?)  If this were possible,
this would make life much easier for content providers, being able to make
one version of the content and letting the server slice and dice it to suit
the listener.  This would mean the need for some smarts in the server and
client to determine the optimal data rate.

This of course raises the issue of the processing power needed to do the
pealing.  Is this very resource intensive?  Note that a person wanting to
stream to a server via modem would have to be able to cope with the need to
encode at a higher bit rate *and* peal the data, both in realtime, before
uploading it to the server.  Is this asking too much?  You could have more
smarts here to allow the server and sourcer to determin the highest
sustainable bitrate, with perhaps some fascility for manual over-ride.

Another question.  Seeing you can peal down 44.1khz, can you do the same
to, say, 22.05khz and get, say, 8kbps per channel?  I kinda like the idea
of being able to broadcast at 22.05khz in 16kbps stereo, so I'd like to
know if I should stop dreaming now before I get too set on the idea.

As you've probably guessed, I have a use in mind.  I am involved with a
project called ACB radio (http://www.acbradio.org), and particularly the
ACB radio interactive channel.  This is an interesting channel as it
involves a host of broadcasters from around the world sharing the one
server with scheduled hand-over points.  Some of us are on cable/DSL and
some of us are not.  Likewise our listeners.  If vorbis will be able to do
all that I think it can (above), this would overcome pretty much all that
MP3 does not let us do.

The only thing then that I'd want to lobby for is for all the players to
cope with a change in data rate, that being where one broadcaster switches
over to another.  This might not affect people listening at low bit rates,
as the server would downscale anyway, but say a modem broadcaster handed
over to a broadband user,.  This would result in a change in data rate for
any other cable listeners.  MP3 does not cope well with this at all, and
I'd like to see vorbis address this issue if this is at all possible.

Keep up the great work!

Geoff.

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> From: Geoff Shang <gshang@uq.net.au>
> 
> Since I'm not a programmer and just want to get stuff worked out
properly
> in my head, I'm posting this here.
I'm not a Vorbis wizard, but I think somebody should at least
make some answer, and I haven't seen another one, so I will
spout off a bit.  The wizards will no doubt correct my egregious
errors.
> The way I understand things is that vorbis is meant to be able to do
> 44.1khz audio at bit rates as low as 16 kbps per channel, at least
> in theory (see vorbis.com & vorbis.org).  However, I am led to
> understand that encoding streams below a certain data rate at
> 44.1khz will involve incoding at a higher rate and then pealing off
> bits in order to obtain the desired data size.  Is this correct?
Not quite.  There's a lot more to audio encoding than throwing away
bits.  The raw sound data consists of samples at 44 kHz, i.e. one sample
every 1/44 ms = 23 microseconds.  Each sample is a 16 bit integer giving
the instantaneous amplitude of the waveform at that instant.  That works
out to 705 kbits/sec of raw data.  If you were to compress this by
simply throwing away 9 out of 10 samples it would sound horrible
(painful speaker-damage horrible).

Fortunately sound waves are not random, but are fairly smooth and
repetitious.  The coded form does not contain samples at all.  It
contains (very roughly speaking) data about the pitch, duration, and
loudness of the notes that make up the sound.  The decoder uses that
information to rebuild the sound by regenerating the notes and adding
them together.  (Macho math supressed).  Vorbis uses a variable bit
rate encoder, which means that a minute of a simple sound, like say
the hum of a refrigerator, may be coded into many fewer bits than a
minute of, say, Frank Zappa's "Zombie Woof".  (Just as the musical
score by FZ takes more pages than "low G whole note and repeat 60
times".)
> If so, is this size point yet known or will
> this have to be determined as development proceeds?
I don't understand the question.  What "size point" are you
asking about?
> OK, now suppose you run a server like icecast 2.0, for example.
> Will it be possible for the server to receive a suitably encoded
> vorbis stream at a high rate, say 128kbps, and then serve up streams
> at the right rate for various connections?
If somebody writes the code.  I don't know what icecast 2.0 does
at this time, presumably not that.  Does it do that for sound
encoded in some other format, or are we starting from scratch?
> (e.g. pass the full stream on to people using high bandwidth
> connections, strip it down for ISDN and strip it down still further
> for modem users, all on the one server?)  If this were possible,
> this would make life much easier for content providers, being able
> to make one version of the content and letting the server slice and
> dice it to suit the listener.  This would mean the need for some
> smarts in the server and client to determine the optimal data rate.
I see no reason why that would not be possible in priciple.  At
worst you decode the Vorbis stream to get back the original
waveform, and then re-encode at the lower rate.
 
> This of course raises the issue of the processing power needed to do the
> pealing.  Is this very resource intensive?
Compared to what?  (I don't know.)  Don't try it on a TRS-80!
> Note that a person wanting to stream to a server via modem would
> have to be able to cope with the need to encode at a higher bit rate
> *and* peal the data, both in realtime, before uploading it to the
> server.  Is this asking too much?
Yes.  Re-coding at a lower bit rate is possible, but there is no
going back.  Once you have thrown away information it is gone.
If you don't ask for real-time, then it is possible.  You can
spend all day uploading the megabyte file that contains your
three minute hit single through a 2400baud modem, somebody else
could spend half a second downloading it through a T1 line.
Either way it takes three minutes to play it.
> Another question.  Seeing you can peal down 44.1khz, can you do the same
> to, say, 22.05khz and get, say, 8kbps per channel?  I kinda like the idea
> of being able to broadcast at 22.05khz in 16kbps stereo, so I'd like to
> know if I should stop dreaming now before I get too set on the idea.
This sounds like you are confusing the sampling rate of the raw sound
with the bit-rate of the encoded data.
> I am involved with a project called ACB radio
> (http://www.acbradio.org), and particularly the ACB radio
> interactive channel.
Involved how?
> If vorbis will be able to do all that I think it can (above), this
> would overcome pretty much all that MP3 does not let us do.
As Scotty says: you can't change the laws of physics.

Who programs the server?  You might reasonably lobby the Vorbis
wizards to put calls in libvorbis that would allow for re-coding
at a lower average bit rate, but that still leaves a lot of
work to make the server pick the rates and send the proper
bit stream in the proper direction.  Are the icecast programmers
interested in doing that?  I'm not sure what Icecast is.
Is it free (Open Source, GPL) software?

    -- Keith

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