Does the reason Theora is relatively safe from patent infringement lawsuit have more to do with it actually not being encumbered, or is it because its use is decentralized? For example, FreeType is not patent-free, nor is Linux, yet they succeed because on the one hand, they are open source, and those who maintain them do not guarantee anything regarding patents, it is up to each individual user to deal with those issues; and on the other hand, the very fact that it's not one but many infringers makes it far more difficult for a patent troll to extract anything. People use Linux even though Microsoft (for example) is known to have patents that cover parts of it; and people could probably use the patented algorithms in FreeType without being worried about a suit. I for one doubt that Theora truly does not infringe on some patent or other, because I believe that the way the patent system works today, it is impossible to write anything of significance without accidentally "trespassing" on this or that patent. Shayne
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:00, Shayne Wissler <wissler at gmail.com> wrote:> Does the reason Theora is relatively safe from patent infringement > lawsuit have more to do with it actually not being encumbered, or is > it because its use is decentralized? > > For example, FreeType is not patent-free, nor is Linux, yet they > succeed because on the one hand, they are open source, and those who > maintain them do not guarantee anything regarding patents, it is up to > each individual user to deal with those issues; and on the other hand, > the very fact that it's not one but many infringers makes it far more > difficult for a patent troll to extract anything. People use Linux > even though Microsoft (for example) is known to have patents that > cover parts of it; and people could probably use the patented > algorithms in FreeType without being worried about a suit. > > I for one doubt that Theora truly does not infringe on some patent or > other, because I believe that the way the patent system works today, > it is impossible to write anything of significance without > accidentally "trespassing" on this or that patent. > > > ShayneXiph have investigated the matter and came to the conclusion that Theora probably doesn't infringe on any patents. 'Probably not' is about the best you can get for a patent situation. Xiph can't make their findings public, because if they would, it would give attackers a list of patents that are probably not infringed, but can still be sued for. Freetype has a few known patented technologies, which are #ifdef-ed out at compile time by default. No known patented technology is being used by default. Linux infringes on no known technologies. Microsoft says Linux is infringing on $scarynumber of their patents, but they deliberately don't list them. OIN bought a few patents from Microsoft, which turned out to be quite dubious. As always, the scare of patents is enough to make money off of. Software patents suck. -- Remco
On Oct 10, 2009, at 1:00 AM, Shayne Wissler wrote:> People use Linux even though Microsoft (for example) is known to > have patents that cover parts of it;Please don't try spreading their FUD campaign. Microsoft also made similar statements in 2004 at [1]. People have already told Microsoft to "put up or shut up" in regard to their statements and itemize the specific patents they believe are being infringed. Have they done that? No. As a result, most people seem to consider Microsoft' s statement nothing more than an attempt to spread FUD, and you're helping by both believing it and then spreading it. [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4021775.stm> I for one doubt that Theora truly does not infringe on some patent > or otherWhat evidence do you base this on? Have you paid to conduct your own patent search or simply attempting to spread more FUD?
Here is a blog entry from 2007 discussing the potential "submarine patent" problem as it related to Theora: http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2007/12/video-element-and-ogg-theora.html Here's a more recent discussion that indicates that Apple's problem with Theora is precisely from the issue I tried to underscore: that no one has been sued over Theora precisely because it hasn't been embraced by a large company yet, and there's a risk of submarine patent if they do: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-June/020620.html This is not "FUD", this is the fact of life for people who try to write any kind of software nowadays. Suppose Apple did adopt Theora, and the submarine came up (and supposing one is indeed lurking, we should expect it to wait until broad adoption). Then what happens to all of us small-time/non-profit users? Right now we're OK, but after that, it seems we'd be screwed. Shayne