Hello Ivo:
One more from me and I suppose a retort by you
and that's it ... no flame war please. Let's see
if we can keep this discussion objective.
I've had enough life experience to have seen and
heard the mistakes you've made many times. Point by point:
* This is a tech list that I joined a number
of years ago because of a serious intent to use
the Speex product in my business (not TSC). I
didn't join it simply and nihilistically to bash the author.
* You and I have always had the right to
speak freely ... and there are always
consequences to what we say. Jean made an error
in injecting political rhetoric into his answer
to Thomas Leigh. And, yes, that's Business 101. I
now choose to probably not use the product
because I choose not to support anti free market thinking.
* Free Market is not an American Capitalist
"buzz word" as you pejoratively and dismissively
put it. It is, in fact, the essential
characteristic of a very good system called Capitalism.
* You note that Xiph.Org Foundation is a
non-profit organization presumably to elevate its
agenda to some worldly wonderful purpose ... as
if to say "our work is so profoundly important to
humanity, that we forego profit". Non-profit is a
tax term meant to gain subsidy from governments
in the form of tax exemption. And we taxpayers
pay for that subsidy. No, Speex is not a
Communist "plot", as you sardonically put it. It
is simply socialistically funded. An organization
declares that it has no profits by completely
distributing any revenues to its members and
paying for services to its suppliers. Now I don't
claim to know anything about Xiph's accounting,
but we do know that it has expenses that must be covered.
* Now let's deal with who pays for Open
Source because it is certainly not free. I
believe Jean (and you) do eat everyday and you
and he pay for living quarters. In fact, you do
get paid for your work as does he. You either are
recipients of grants or welfare (same thing), or
you do your work on "company time" while the boss
is not watching, or the boss knowingly pays for
your work and passes that expense onto his
customers (after all, he must make profit to pay his living expenses).
* And finally ... how and why did Open Source
come to be? I'm sure you must lament everyday the
notion that Microsoft is the epitome of
Capitalist success. Concomitantly, it must
therefore be destroyed! Right? Open Source is an
anti Microsoft religion practiced by people who
hold these views and their "profit" beyond money
income is knowing that they are soldiers in this
profoundly important movement (sorry, couldn't
resist sarcastically poking a bit of fun).
Enjoy. Have a nice life.
At 10:55 PM 8/31/2007 +0100, Ivo Emanuel Gon??alves
wrote:>Hello Mr Loebel, > that's business 101 Speex is
>a not business, nor is Jean-Marc selling a
>product. The Xiph.Org Foundation, of which
>Jean-Marc is a member with his Speex project, is
>a non-profit organization. > Speex may be a very
>good product, but we will never use it because
>of > the politics that you espouse If you would
>like to pay for a special US$1000 Speex license,
>I'm sure Jean-Marc will be glad to provide you
>with one. > some of us out here believe strongly
>in the free market. I believe "Free Market" is
>an American capitalist buzz word. Jean-Marc is
>Canadian. Regardless, I'm sure he strongly
>believes in free speech, which means he may
>humoristically dismiss Microsoft's product and
>make fun of it publicly. It's not going to
>affect Microsoft's sells, positively or
>negatively. There will always be those who will
>look with suspicion towards a free gift. And
>there are those who understood that Speex is a
>better format and will not join a technical
>mailing list to bash the project's author for no
>reason other than bashing the project's
>author. > the rantings of left wing academics
>who typically have no > real world business
>experience! You confuse me, Mr Loebel. It
>appears you believe Speex is some sort of
>communist plot, or did I understand you wrong? >
>The Tech Startup Connection > (formerly The
>PARALLEL Processing Connection) I wish the best
>of luck towards your company, which means
>serious business. I'm sure it will be greatly
>relevant in the free market you speak of,
>because its Executive Director, who writes
>e-mail messages like a 16 year old, knows all
>there is about marketing and establishing a
>company's reputation. My best regards, Ivo Emanuel Gon??alves
---
B. Mitchell Loebel, Executive
Director 408 425-9920
The Tech Startup Connection
(formerly The PARALLEL Processing Connection)
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B. Mitchell Loebel wrote: Firstly when you talk about the main Speex developer, you should call him his proper name "Jean-Marc" rather than "Jean".> I now choose to probably not use the product > because I choose not to support anti free market thinking.Choice is good.> * Free Market is not an American Capitalist > "buzz word" as you pejoratively and dismissively > put it. It is, in fact, the essential > characteristic of a very good system called Capitalism.I agreed, IMO capitalism has its flaws but as a socio- economic system it provides a better quality of life and more opportunity than any other socio-economic system we humans have come up with.> * You note that Xiph.Org Foundation is a > non-profit organization presumably to elevate its > agenda to some worldly wonderful purpose ... as > if to say "our work is so profoundly important to > humanity, that we forego profit". Non-profit is a > tax term meant to gain subsidy from governments > in the form of tax exemption. And we taxpayers > pay for that subsidy.I think you will find that Xiph has an absolutley tiny income, which is mostly spent on servers and bandwidth. Xiph does not as far as I know have a single full time paid employee. As such, Xiph costs (in terms of not paying tax) the tax payer close to nothing. It does however provide what I and very many other consider very useful software.> It is simply socialistically funded.Rubbish! It is funded by donations. Those donations are spent on servers and bandwidth. There is no profit to tax even if Xiph wasn't a non-profit organisation. Let me remind you, that most western governments choose to give churches and other religious organisations non-profit, tax-free status as well. Are those "socialistically funded"? I believe that Bill Gates has show a couple of billion dollars into non-profit organisations. Are they "socialistically funded"?> * Now let's deal with who pays for Open > Source because it is certainly not free. I > believe Jean (and you) do eat everyday and you > and he pay for living quarters. In fact, you do > get paid for your work as does he. You either are > recipients of grants or welfare (same thing), or > you do your work on "company time" while the boss > is not watching, or the boss knowingly pays for > your work and passes that expense onto his > customers (after all, he must make profit to pay > his living expenses).I don't want to speak for Jean-Marc, but I do know him well enough to know that he works for a government funded research organisation here in Australia. Part of that work includes working on Speex. As an Australian tax-payer I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is governement funded research being patented and locked up for the exclusive use of some company.> * And finally ... how and why did Open Source > come to be?In the beginning of the computer age, all software was open source freely shared among users.> I'm sure you must lament everyday the > notion that Microsoft is the epitome of > Capitalist success.Like Jean-Marc says, Microsft has been convicted of anti- competitive conduct (but received no more than a slap on the wrist). Microsoft used its huge reserves of cash to drive competitors out of business. This most certainly is not a Free Market. A Free Market is where consumers can choose a product form a number of competing vendors.> Concomitantly, it must therefore be destroyed!No. Microsoft must play within the rules of the Free Market. There is also some validity in the claim that Micorosoft should be punished for its previous bad behaviour which got it to its current position. Erik -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Erik de Castro Lopo ----------------------------------------------------------------- "The very definition of hell is having to maintain someone else's Perl code." -- Anonymous
1. I really HATE POLITICS. 2. I think Speex is a great solution to the problem of compressing human speech. 3. Good heavens people can we please stop throwing around words like communist and socialism. 4. Government funded research has done a lot for the US and other countries. Going all the way back to the NACA cowling and airfoils that where vital in the development of airliners and the fighters and bombers that won World War II to the weather satellites and NOAA today. I have no problem with Australia using the public research that my tax dollars in the US produces so it only seems fair that I get to use Speex :) As too how good Speex is? Well Microsoft used it in XBox live for years. So can we really end all this junk and all of us get back to writing code? PS if you don't like Speex then don't use it is the way I look at it.