Rails - Oct 2010 - Use of Editors(like Radrails,Netbeans) in ROR?

Hi All,

Willing to know if by using Editors, will we able to modify things(like
labels,etc) on the view layer. Or is it safer to change them using
individual files in the app/views folder ??
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Premanshu Mishra wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Willing to know if by using Editors, will we able to modify things(like
> labels,etc) on the view layer. Or is it safer to change them using
> individual files in the app/views folder ??
As far as I know, no.
But the magic of rails is that is so simple that you''re better off
using
a regular editor.

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On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 6:14 AM, Premanshu Mishra
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Willing to know if by using Editors, will we able to modify things(like
> labels,etc) on the view layer. Or is it safer to change them using
> individual files in the app/views folder ??
Your question doesn''t make any sense; regardless of what editor or
IDE you use, you''ll be "changing files" in the app directory.

Maybe you can restate?

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@hassan

I believe he wants a wysiwyg for rails views.

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Radhames Brito wrote:
> @hassan
> 
> I believe he wants a wysiwyg for rails views.
You can use any WYSIWYG HTML editor for that -- with all the attendant 
problems.  The OP should learn HTML and do it right. :)

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On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>wrote:
> Radhames Brito wrote:
> > @hassan
> >
> > I believe he wants a wysiwyg for rails views.
>
> You can use any WYSIWYG HTML editor for that -- with all the attendant
> problems.  The OP should learn HTML and do it right. :)
>
>
Yes but he wants one with rails support, you know of any? i never cared to
look.

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On Oct 11, 2010, at 11:05 AM, radhames brito wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org
> > wrote:
> Radhames Brito wrote:
> > @hassan
> >
> > I believe he wants a wysiwyg for rails views.
>
> You can use any WYSIWYG HTML editor for that -- with all the attendant
> problems.  The OP should learn HTML and do it right. :)
>
>
> Yes but he wants one with rails support, you know of any? i never  
> cared to look.
I haven''t used it much at all, but the WYSIWYG Flux from
http://theescapers.com
  purports to do this. I think has some limited ability to create  
controllers and models etc. too. I remember seeing a screencast  
showing this a while back, but I don''t see it on their site any more.

Walter


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Hi All,

Re phrasing my earlier doubt.

I installed radrails but could not use it as i dont understand what help 
it has to offer me. If i have to change the view of my application say 
for example :

i will change a label named "School Name" to "College Name"
will I be
able to change it using radrails or i have to go to my app directory and 
change it there in the particular file.

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> i will change a label named "School Name" to "College
Name" will I be
> able to change it using radrails or i have to go to my app directory and
> change it there in the particular file.
RadRails or any IDE will allow you to edit the files of your
application, so when you say ''using radrails or i have to go to my app
directory'' does not make much sense because both things are one and
the same. The IDE goes to your application and opens the files in it
and when outside of the IDE you also go to your application and open
the files in it. Same difference.

Many people here don''t like IDE''s and like to just use a
''simpler''
editor. Many of them like TextMate. I find IDEs useful if only because
they allow you to search/replace easily any text within the project.
They also help with refactoring, etc.

If you need help with methods, classes, etc. help is usually just a
Ctrl+Space Bar or similar away in the IDE, but I personally prefer
going to ''apidock.com'' and ''ruby-doc.org''.

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pepe wrote in post #949502:
[...]
> Many people here don''t like IDE''s and like to just use a
''simpler''
> editor. Many of them like TextMate. I find IDEs useful if only because
> they allow you to search/replace easily any text within the project.
So do good (non-IDE) editors like TextMate or KomodoEdit.

Please don''t mislead people about the features of editors.
> They also help with refactoring, etc.
Have you ever seen an IDE that actually does this effectively for Ruby?
I have not.  The Ruby Refactoring Browser for Eclipse never seems to
work (unless there''s been a recent upgrade that I missed).

If refactoring tools were out there, this would be a big win.  But they
aren''t, are they?
>
> If you need help with methods, classes, etc. help is usually just a
> Ctrl+Space Bar or similar away in the IDE, but I personally prefer
> going to ''apidock.com'' and
''ruby-doc.org''.
apidock.com is probably the ugliest and most confusing docs site I''ve
seen.  Have you tried http://www.railsapi.com ?

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On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
>> They also help with refactoring, etc.
>
> Have you ever seen an IDE that actually does this effectively for Ruby?
> I have not.
Neither have I.  Every Ruby IDE I''ve tried falls flat on it''s
face as
far as code completion.  That would be the one feature that MIGHT pull
me away from Emacs, but I''ve not seen it up to now.


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Greg Donald wrote in post #949575:
> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
> <lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>> They also help with refactoring, etc.
>>
>> Have you ever seen an IDE that actually does this effectively for Ruby?
>> I have not.
>
> Neither have I.  Every Ruby IDE I''ve tried falls flat on
it''s face as
> far as code completion.
I''ve seen Komodo (and perhaps NetBeans) do decently with Ruby code 
completion.  I was talking here about refactoring tools, not code 
completion.

Then again, I don''t care much about code completion in Ruby, so I
don''t
look particularly hard at its quality in editors I use for Ruby.  (I do 
find it useful in other languages.)
> That would be the one feature that MIGHT pull
> me away from Emacs, but I''ve not seen it up to now.
>
>
> --
> Greg Donald
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>
> i will change a label named "School Name" to "College
Name" will I be
> able to change it using radrails or i have to go to my app directory and
> change it there in the particular file.

What you are trying to ask is, "if you can change the view through a
wysiwyg?" otherwise this still makes no sense, what you want is a
"what you
see is what you get" editor for rails, it does not exist, every IDE out
there is as good as notepad (a little exageration) for programming rails,
but this is not a bad thing it only means that rails is simple and easy to
manage.

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> Please don''t mislead people about the features of editors.
Not trying to. If you read more carefully you''ll notice that I
didn''t
even try to mention a single feature of text editors, among other
things because I don''t really know much about them. I was solely
commenting on IDEs capabilities and why I use them.

Please pay attention before accusing.
> Have you ever seen an IDE that actually does this effectively for Ruby?
> I have not.  The Ruby Refactoring Browser for Eclipse never seems to
> work (unless there''s been a recent upgrade that I missed).
>
> If refactoring tools were out there, this would be a big win.  But they
> aren''t, are they?
Still better to have a computer that helps you and saves you time than
doing the searching, etc. by hand, IMHO. Things might not be perfect
but can save you time.
> apidock.com is probably the ugliest and most confusing docs site
I''ve
> seen.  Have you triedhttp://www.railsapi.com?
Yes I have as well as other sources, as I am sure you do too. The fact
that you don''t like something does not mean others will not or
won''t
find it useful. And the fact that I only mentioned a couple of sites
does not mean that those are the only ones I use or would recommend,
they are just a couple of examples where the OP could find some
information.

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RubyMine has some nice refactoring tools.  I can''t say I''ve
pushed them very
hard, but when I have tried them they''ve worked well.

(Disclaimer: I have no connection to the company, I''m just a RubyMine
user.)

On 12 October 2010 18:05, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
>
> > They also help with refactoring, etc.
>
> Have you ever seen an IDE that actually does this effectively for Ruby?
> I have not.  The Ruby Refactoring Browser for Eclipse never seems to
> work (unless there''s been a recent upgrade that I missed).
>
> If refactoring tools were out there, this would be a big win.  But they
> aren''t, are they?
>
>
> Best,
> --
> Marnen Laibow-Koser
> http://www.marnen.org
> marnen-sbuyVjPbboAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org
>
> --
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pepe wrote in post #949641:
>> Please don''t mislead people about the features of editors.
>
> Not trying to. If you read more carefully you''ll notice that I
didn''t
> even try to mention a single feature of text editors, among other
> things because I don''t really know much about them. I was solely
> commenting on IDEs capabilities and why I use them.
You said you like IDEs because of global search and replace 
capabilities; you seemed to be implying that other editors couldn''t do 
that.

But you yourself have just admitted that you don''t know much about text
editors, so how can you effectively draw comparisons between them and 
IDEs?

Or did you mean something else entirely?

[...]
> Still better to have a computer that helps you and saves you time than
> doing the searching, etc. by hand, IMHO. Things might not be perfect
> but can save you time.
And you don''t need an IDE for that.
>
>> apidock.com is probably the ugliest and most confusing docs site
I''ve
>> seen. Have you triedhttp://www.railsapi.com?
>
> Yes I have as well as other sources, as I am sure you do too. The fact
> that you don''t like something does not mean others will not or
won''t
> find it useful.
Of course it doesn''t.  I just wanted to be sure you were aware of what
I
consider to be a superior alternative.
> And the fact that I only mentioned a couple of sites
> does not mean that those are the only ones I use or would recommend,
> they are just a couple of examples where the OP could find some
> information.
Sure.

Best,
--
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http://www.marnen.org
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Mark Weston wrote in post #949681:
> RubyMine has some nice refactoring tools.  I can''t say
I''ve pushed them
> very
> hard, but when I have tried them they''ve worked well.
>
> (Disclaimer: I have no connection to the company, I''m just a
RubyMine
> user.)
Good to know.  I''ve been trying to avoid spending money on an IDE, but
I
think that I have a copy of RubyMine I can try on my work computer and 
see if it''s worth the money...

...and looking at the website, I see that they also offer the program 
free to open-source projects.  I have several of those, so I could 
probably get a free license that way and try it out.

Best,
--
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http://www.marnen.org
marnen-sbuyVjPbboAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org

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> You said you like IDEs because of global search and replace
> capabilities; you seemed to be implying that other editors
couldn''t do
> that.
To seem to an to actually do are different things.
> But you yourself have just admitted that you don''t know much about
text
> editors, so how can you effectively draw comparisons between them and
> IDEs?
I still fail to see where I compared editors and IDEs although I
understand that maybe by mentioning both in the same paragraph might
have led you to believe I was if I was not very clear in my intention.
> Or did you mean something else entirely?
I meant what I said, no more no less. I just think you read a little
too much in it or I wasn''t clear enough.
> > Still better to have a computer that helps you and saves you time than
> > doing the searching, etc. by hand, IMHO. Things might not be perfect
> > but can save you time.
>
> And you don''t need an IDE for that.
Of course not, the same way that I don''t need an airplane to go from
NY to LA but it just might make things a little easier. If I have a
tool that already provides the functionality (or close) that I need,
why not use it?

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pepe wrote in post #949706:
>> You said you like IDEs because of global search and replace
>> capabilities; you seemed to be implying that other editors
couldn''t do
>> that.
>
> To seem to an to actually do are different things.
>
>> But you yourself have just admitted that you don''t know much
about text
>> editors, so how can you effectively draw comparisons between them and
>> IDEs?
>
> I still fail to see where I compared editors and IDEs although I
> understand that maybe by mentioning both in the same paragraph might
> have led you to believe I was if I was not very clear in my intention.
Likely what happened.  In the context of the discussion as a whole, I 
thought you were comparing IDEs and other editors.  Apparently you 
weren''t.  Sorry for misunderstanding.

[...]
>> > Still better to have a computer that helps you and saves you time
than
>> > doing the searching, etc. by hand, IMHO. Things might not be
perfect
>> > but can save you time.
>>
>> And you don''t need an IDE for that.
>
> Of course not, the same way that I don''t need an airplane to go
from
> NY to LA but it just might make things a little easier. If I have a
> tool that already provides the functionality (or close) that I need,
> why not use it?
Because there are other tools out there providing equivalent 
functionality without the disadvantages?

Anyway, by your own admission, you don''t know much about the 
alternatives.  Get out there and do some research! :)

Best,
--
Marnen Laibow-Koser
http://www.marnen.org
marnen-sbuyVjPbboAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org

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> Likely what happened.  In the context of the discussion as a whole, I
> thought you were comparing IDEs and other editors.  Apparently you
> weren''t.  Sorry for misunderstanding.
Same here.
> >> And you don''t need an IDE for that.
[...]
> Because there are other tools out there providing equivalent
> functionality without the disadvantages?
What disadvantages?

Quote from answer to Mark Weston:
Mark wrote:
> RubyMine has some nice refactoring tools.  I can''t say
I''ve pushed them
> very
> hard, but when I have tried them they''ve worked well.
> (Disclaimer: I have no connection to the company, I''m just a
RubyMine
> user.)
Marnen wrote:
Good to know
> Anyway, by your own admission, you don''t know much about the
> alternatives.  Get out there and do some research! :)
Seems we both have some research to do. ;)

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pepe wrote in post #949821:
>> Likely what happened. In the context of the discussion as a whole, I
>> thought you were comparing IDEs and other editors. Apparently you
>> weren''t. Sorry for misunderstanding.
>
> Same here.
>
>> >> And you don''t need an IDE for that.
> [...]
>> Because there are other tools out there providing equivalent
>> functionality without the disadvantages?
>
> What disadvantages?
IDEs are often bloated and difficult to use compared to editors.  For 
developing with technologies like J2EE, you need the extra power and 
features to make your life easier.  For developing with technologies 
like Rails, the extra features just get in the way and slow things down.

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http://www.marnen.org
marnen-sbuyVjPbboAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org

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> IDEs are often bloated and difficult to use compared to editors.  For
> developing with technologies like J2EE, you need the extra power and
> features to make your life easier.  For developing with technologies
> like Rails, the extra features just get in the way and slow things down.
Yes, sometimes I have found IDEs bloated and slow as a consequence.
I''ll have to check out some editors and see. Thanks Marnen.

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Why should those J2EE guys have all the nice toys?  I want my life made
easier too!

There are reasons why IDEs for RoR haven''t all been stellar, one being
that
all that metaprogramming magic must make Rails a really slippery framework
to build tools for, another the insane pace of change over the last year or
two.  And most importantly the problem of competing with free, and selling
to programmers who are acclimatised to working with open source tools (thus
the prices for software like RubyMine which in any other market would be
absurdly low).

It''s one thing to say that IDEs for Rails aren''t very good
(for reasons x, y
and z).  Another to just generalise that we don''t need no stinking IDE.
 That sounds dangerously close to a kind of programmers'' machismo.

Me, personally, I can''t get enough automation.  Anything my machine can
do
is something I don''t have to.  Scrolling through an RDoc page for the
100th
time is a waste of my time if my IDE can remind me of what I''m looking
for
immediately.  And I most especially want as much debugging help as possible.

Mark


On 13 October 2010 20:55, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> pepe wrote in post #949821:
> >> Likely what happened. In the context of the discussion as a whole,
I
> >> thought you were comparing IDEs and other editors. Apparently you
> >> weren''t. Sorry for misunderstanding.
> >
> > Same here.
> >
> >> >> And you don''t need an IDE for that.
> > [...]
> >> Because there are other tools out there providing equivalent
> >> functionality without the disadvantages?
> >
> > What disadvantages?
>
> IDEs are often bloated and difficult to use compared to editors.  For
> developing with technologies like J2EE, you need the extra power and
> features to make your life easier.  For developing with technologies
> like Rails, the extra features just get in the way and slow things down.
>
> Best,
> --
> Marnen Laibow-Koser
> http://www.marnen.org
> marnen-sbuyVjPbboAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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Mark Weston wrote in post #949967:
> Why should those J2EE guys have all the nice toys?  I want my life made
> easier too!
Your life is already being made easier by Rails.

That sounds snarky on the face of it, but really, what do you want an 
IDE to do for you with Rails?  Very little of the duplicated and 
generated boilerplate that IDEs are so good at maintaining is necessary 
in Rails, so IDEs have no real advantage that I can think of, and in my 
experience they slow everything down.

I love IDEs in other contexts, but I do not think they are necessary or 
desirable for Rails.
>
> There are reasons why IDEs for RoR haven''t all been stellar, one
being
> that
> all that metaprogramming magic must make Rails a really slippery
> framework
> to build tools for, another the insane pace of change over the last year
> or
> two.
Yup.
>  And most importantly the problem of competing with free, and
> selling
> to programmers who are acclimatised to working with open source tools
> (thus
> the prices for software like RubyMine which in any other market would be
> absurdly low).
I started playing with RubyMine today.  So far I''m unimpressed -- I
like
the refactoring tools, but everything else looks so much more 
complicated than in any other IDE or editor -- but I''ll try to find the
time to give it a fair chance.
>
> It''s one thing to say that IDEs for Rails aren''t very
good (for reasons
> x, y
> and z).  Another to just generalise that we don''t need no stinking
IDE.
Why do you want an IDE for Rails?  What, specifically, do you want it to 
do for you?
>  That sounds dangerously close to a kind of programmers'' machismo.
It''s not machismo.  It''s just a recognition that Rails solves
the
problems generally solved by IDEs in other (arguably better) ways: by 
making the actual code simpler!
>
> Me, personally, I can''t get enough automation.
Neither can I.  But I see no point in introducing complexity where the 
extra automation doesn''t actually help.
>  Anything my machine can
> do
> is something I don''t have to.  Scrolling through an RDoc page for
the
> 100th
> time is a waste of my time if my IDE can remind me of what I''m
looking
> for
> immediately.
How does your IDE help with that?
>  And I most especially want as much debugging help as
> possible.
How does your IDE help with that?
>
> Mark
Best,
--
Marnen Laibow-Koser
http://www.marnen.org
marnen-sbuyVjPbboAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org

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Well, firstly let''s be clear I''m not trying to sell RubyMine
as my ideal
IDE.  I''ve paid for it, but I''m sometimes quite equivocal
about whether it''s
much better than a terminal/editor combination.  (Mind you, on the days
I''ve
needed to use the debugger I''ve been very glad to have it.  But
I''m only
starting out with Rails and that hasn''t happened very often yet).

But I haven''t tried all the IDE options available, and there are
features
that are standard for other languages and environments that would be just as
valuable to Ruby/Rails.  I think it''s daft to assert that Rails devs,
just
because they use Rails, can''t benefit from an IDE.

Very little of the duplicated and
> generated boilerplate that IDEs are so good at maintaining is necessary
> in Rails, so IDEs have no real advantage that I can think of, and in my
> experience they slow everything down.
>
I agree about the code generation, but I''m not sure where you think
IDEs
slow you down so much.  A 20 - 30 second load time may not be fun but you
only have to sit through it once a day,.
>  Anything my machine can
> > do
> > is something I don''t have to.  Scrolling through an RDoc page
for the
> > 100th
> > time is a waste of my time if my IDE can remind me of what
I''m looking
> > for
> > immediately.
>
> How does your IDE help with that?
>
Auto-completion and context-sensitive help and documentation; for me two of
the most valuable tools for working with a large framework without having to
memorise APIs
>
> >  And I most especially want as much debugging help as
> > possible.
>
> How does your IDE help with that?
>
By actually having a debugger!

Mark

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Mark Weston wrote in post #950097:
> Well, firstly let''s be clear I''m not trying to sell
RubyMine as my ideal
> IDE.  I''ve paid for it, but I''m sometimes quite equivocal
about whether
> it''s
> much better than a terminal/editor combination.
Exactly.
>  (Mind you, on the days
> I''ve
> needed to use the debugger I''ve been very glad to have it.  But
I''m only
> starting out with Rails and that hasn''t happened very often yet).
If you''re only starting out with Rails, I wonder if you''re
fully aware
of the available options.  Have you used the command-line debugger?
>
> But I haven''t tried all the IDE options available, and there are
> features
> that are standard for other languages and environments that would be
> just as
> valuable to Ruby/Rails.
Such as?
>  I think it''s daft to assert that Rails devs,
> just
> because they use Rails, can''t benefit from an IDE.
What''s daft about that?  The nature of Rails is such that conventional 
IDE features really do it no good at all.  Perhaps a different sort of 
IDE would be helpful, but (with the possible exception of RubyMine) I''m
not sure such a thing exists yet.
>
> Very little of the duplicated and
>> generated boilerplate that IDEs are so good at maintaining is necessary
>> in Rails, so IDEs have no real advantage that I can think of, and in my
>> experience they slow everything down.
>>
>
> I agree about the code generation, but I''m not sure where you
think IDEs
> slow you down so much.  A 20 - 30 second load time may not be fun but
> you
> only have to sit through it once a day,.
True, but big IDEs (being more complex programs) are generally slower 
than simpler editors.  In my experience, they also make common Rails 
shell tasks harder, not easier.
>
>>  Anything my machine can
>
>> > do
>> > is something I don''t have to.  Scrolling through an RDoc
page for the
>> > 100th
>> > time is a waste of my time if my IDE can remind me of what
I''m looking
>> > for
>> > immediately.
>>
>> How does your IDE help with that?
>>
>
> Auto-completion and context-sensitive help and documentation;

You don''t need an IDE for that.  KomodoEdit and jEdit do this too.
> for me two
> of
> the most valuable tools for working with a large framework without
> having to
> memorise APIs
But you *should* be memorizing the API.  (To be fair, I''m constantly 
checking docs as I develop -- usually in my Web browser.  I''ve yet to 
see in-editor documentation that''s as convenient to use.)
>
>>
>> >  And I most especially want as much debugging help as
>> > possible.
>>
>> How does your IDE help with that?
>>
>
> By actually having a debugger!
I have a debugger too, without an IDE.   Do you even know about 
ruby-debug, or are you just stuck in a knee-jerk IDE mentality?
>
> Mark
Best,
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http://www.marnen.org
marnen-sbuyVjPbboAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org

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