I realize that the Rails list has historically been open to job postings, and I generally think that''s a good idea. Recently, though, there have been several posts by third-party recruiters and recruitment firms. My experience with third-party recruiters has been pretty mediocre, and none of the employers I''ve ever had were interested in hiring through them. There are also plenty of stories on the web describing third-party recruiters as liars or worse. Even without that background, though, I''ve noticed that job notices from employers themselves make an effort to be informative and to attract quality candidates, notices from third-party recruiters are usually nothing more than anonymized copy and paste from some job website. I propose that we, as a community, consider this list closed to third-party recruiters while continuing to welcome job notices from direct employers. Job notices are always noise here, as opposed to the signal of technical discussion of Rails, but those from third-party recruiters are actively unpleasant and largely useless noise in a way in which direct employer notices are not. --Greg --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
> > I propose that we, as a community, consider this list closed to > third-party > recruiters while continuing to welcome job notices from direct > employers. > Job notices are always noise here, as opposed to the signal of > technical > discussion of Rails, but those from third-party recruiters are > actively > unpleasant and largely useless noise in a way in which direct employer > notices are not. >And you don''t even see the ones I filter out which don''t even mention rails. Fred> --Greg > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 06:01:06PM +0100, Frederick Cheung wrote:> > I propose that we, as a community, consider this list closed to > > third-party recruiters while continuing to welcome job notices from > > direct employers. Job notices are always noise here, as opposed to the > > signal of technical discussion of Rails, but those from third-party > > recruiters are actively unpleasant and largely useless noise in a way > > in which direct employer notices are not. > > And you don''t even see the ones I filter out which don''t even mention > rails.I appreciate your efforts. I guess I''m asking you to expand them. Are you willing? Do you want some consensus before you do?> > --Greg > Fred--Greg --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Sep 18, 6:30 pm, Gregory Seidman <gsslist+...-dNXPQ6k9rNiG6BJUYyje5axOck334EZe@public.gmane.org> wrote:> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 06:01:06PM +0100, Frederick Cheung wrote: > > > I propose that we, as a community, consider this list closed to > > > third-party recruiters while continuing to welcome job notices from > > > direct employers. Job notices are always noise here, as opposed to the > > > signal of technical discussion of Rails, but those from third-party > > > recruiters are actively unpleasant and largely useless noise in a way > > > in which direct employer notices are not. > > > And you don''t even see the ones I filter out which don''t even mention > > rails. > > I appreciate your efforts. I guess I''m asking you to expand them. Are you > willing? Do you want some consensus before you do?It makes very little difference to me either way. Personally I dislike most of the job postings, but them I''m just 1 of 15000 people in this google group. Some form of community consensus would be nice. Fred --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Sep 18, 1:08 pm, Frederick Cheung <frederick.che...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> It makes very little difference to me either way. Personally I dislike > most of the job postings, but them I''m just 1 of 15000 people in this > google group. Some form of community consensus would be nice. > > Fred+1 Direct employers only Jeff --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On 18-Sep-08, at 2:23 PM, Jeff wrote:> > On Sep 18, 1:08 pm, Frederick Cheung <frederick.che...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> > wrote: > >> It makes very little difference to me either way. Personally I >> dislike >> most of the job postings, but them I''m just 1 of 15000 people in this >> google group. Some form of community consensus would be nice. >> >> Fred > > +1 Direct employers only > > Jeff+1 Jodi --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Gregory Seidman wrote:> Job notices are always noise here, as opposed to the signal > of technical discussion of Rails,I guess my reaction to that statement would depend on what you mean by ''technical discussion of Rails. You mean to include the dozens of "will somebody do my homework?" that we get per week? What about the "my framework''s bigger than your''s" posts we endure. Or, one of my favorite recurring discussions --- "let''s start a beginner''s list. these beginners are _soooo_ not ME.". I''d much rather figure out a way to eliminate the dozens, if not hundreds, of those I see each week than the three or four job postings, no matter what their source.> but those from third-party recruiters are actively unpleasantIt''s three or four a week, Greg. What''s got your back up?> and largely useless noise in a way in which direct employer > notices are not.While I don''t disagree that postings from employers are typically better, the impact of screening postings from third-party recruiters would be nothing but negative WRT the growth of the job market for RoR developers. The fact is that large companies rely on 3rd-party recruiters to fill their position openings. There are more than a few of us out here working hard to get RoR positions opened up in those companies. Ignore the posts if they bother you. Best regards, Bill --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Bill Walton <bill.walton-xwVYE8SWAR3R7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org>wrote:> > Ignore the posts if they bother you. >I''m with Bill. -- Tim --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 02:32:36PM -0500, Bill Walton wrote:> Gregory Seidman wrote: > > Job notices are always noise here, as opposed to the signal > > of technical discussion of Rails, > > I guess my reaction to that statement would depend on what you mean by > ''technical discussion of Rails. You mean to include the dozens of "will > somebody do my homework?" that we get per week? What about the "my > framework''s bigger than your''s" posts we endure. Or, one of my favorite > recurring discussions --- "let''s start a beginner''s list. these beginners > are _soooo_ not ME.". I''d much rather figure out a way to eliminate the > dozens, if not hundreds, of those I see each week than the three or four job > postings, no matter what their source.The beginner''s list discussion is a trap that every technical mailing list I''ve ever been on has fallen into. Same with do my homework. Over and over. The problem there is filtering. The people who participate in all of those discussions are mainly the same people who contribute in valuable ways to other threads. (Even the kids with homework sometimes become valuable contributors.) The same cannot be said for job announcements. Direct employer job announcements are sometimes posted by folks who contribute to discussions and just want to help their company fill a spot. Other times it''s an actual HR type. As a category, they cannot be said to be posted by noncontributing people. They also contribute some value to the ever-changing segment of the list membership seeking employment. In comparison, job announcements from third-party recruiters contribute less value and are 100% posted by people who contribute in no (other?) valuable way. More below.> > but those from third-party recruiters are actively unpleasant > > It''s three or four a week, Greg. What''s got your back up?A third-party job announcement is spam masquerading as value. It''s unsolicited and commercial, clearly, but it''s worse than that. Anyone who responds to the posting, regardless of whether they get the job or not, is permanently in the recruiter''s database and will continue to get spammed by the recruiter indefinitely. Third-party recruiters work exactly like spammers, and for the same reasons: even a very small conversion rate pays off, and it''s simple to take a shotgun approach by spamming everyone. I saw two or three messages just today. I''m worried that the trickle will become a flood.> > and largely useless noise in a way in which direct employer notices are > > not. > > While I don''t disagree that postings from employers are typically better, > the impact of screening postings from third-party recruiters would be > nothing but negative WRT the growth of the job market for RoR developers. > The fact is that large companies rely on 3rd-party recruiters to fill > their position openings. There are more than a few of us out here > working hard to get RoR positions opened up in those companies.More power to you, but third-party recruiters do not aid in your endeavors. The best at what they do rarely, if ever, get involved with third-party recruiters. The candidates third-party recruiters bring in average below the level of direct hires, and poor candidates for these jobs you''re trying to open up does nothing to help your cause. If there''s a job opening at your company, go ahead and post it here. You''re providing at least as much value to the list membership and to your employer as any third-party recruiter could, and you''re saving your employer the recruiter''s fee.> Ignore the posts if they bother you.I delete 80-95% of the messages I receive from all the mailing lists I''m on by looking at nothing more than their subjects. The problem is that there is no good way to distinguish by subject an interesting direct job announcement from recruiter trash. If the recruiter spam increases, I''ll stop bothering with job announcements at all and just delete them outright. I won''t be the only one. The legitimate, direct announcements will disappear into the noise and companies will have more trouble filling RoR positions. There is no win from ignoring the problem.> Best regards, > Bill--Greg --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
I read almost all the ''job post'' entries on this mailing list (and several other ruby related lists). I can''t say I''ve ever been interested in one posted by a 3rd party. I''m not sure that outright banning them is necessary, but I certainly wouldn''t want the postings by 3rd-party recruiters to increase. Either way, they still have lots of ways to contact the rails community through sites dedicated to hiring. I guess the ideal would be that they had to pay to post (and the money would go to thank our wonderful moderators, of course). But I guess that isn''t quite how these mailing lists are meant to work! --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Gregory Seidman wrote:> They also contribute some value to the ever-changing > segment of the list membership seeking employment.Thanks for recognizing the needs of those list members.> I saw two or three messages just today. I''m worried > that the trickle will become a flood.I''ll come at this from two directions: 1) Let''s deal with it then. OTOH, I''m all in favor of disaster planning. So how ''bout you take the lead and start working up some quantiative triggers and the actions those would invoke and the resources required to accomplish those actions (human or machine cycles) and we can work together to get everything ready for the flood. 2) Let it rain! One way I look at the postings here is as a measure of which way the market for RoR talent is moving. But then, I leave the tv downstairs turned on to CNN or MSNBC for pretty much the same reason: I stop and take a look at the ticker any time I walk by. It''s not generally actionable, but I find it interesting.> The best at what they do rarely, if ever, get involved with > third-party recruiters.This is sounding a bit elistist. Remember the folks you mentioned above? Bill --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
As much as I hate to receive spam job posts, we shouldn''t forget that these jobs ( and job posts ) do play a HUGE role in Rails'' overall success and enable people to work on the stuff we love. So if these ads are helping even a very small fraction of the 15k userbase, they''re worth keeping. However, I do vote for us trying to enforce ''[JOBS]'' subject prefix, so that people can easily filter those emails if they want to. On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 6:01 PM, Frederick Cheung <frederick.cheung-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > >> >> I propose that we, as a community, consider this list closed to >> third-party >> recruiters while continuing to welcome job notices from direct >> employers. >> Job notices are always noise here, as opposed to the signal of >> technical >> discussion of Rails, but those from third-party recruiters are >> actively >> unpleasant and largely useless noise in a way in which direct employer >> notices are not. >> > > And you don''t even see the ones I filter out which don''t even mention > rails. > > Fred >> --Greg >> >> >> > > > > >-- Cheers! - Pratik http://m.onkey.org --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Why don''t you guys just create a different forum for these job postings? Would that benefit the whole RoR community? On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Bill Walton <bill.walton-xwVYE8SWAR3R7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org>wrote:> > Gregory Seidman wrote: > > They also contribute some value to the ever-changing > > segment of the list membership seeking employment. > > Thanks for recognizing the needs of those list members. > > > I saw two or three messages just today. I''m worried > > that the trickle will become a flood. > > I''ll come at this from two directions: > > 1) Let''s deal with it then. OTOH, I''m all in favor of disaster planning. > So how ''bout you take the lead and start working up some quantiative > triggers and the actions those would invoke and the resources required to > accomplish those actions (human or machine cycles) and we can work together > to get everything ready for the flood. > > 2) Let it rain! One way I look at the postings here is as a measure of > which way the market for RoR talent is moving. But then, I leave the tv > downstairs turned on to CNN or MSNBC for pretty much the same reason: I > stop and take a look at the ticker any time I walk by. It''s not generally > actionable, but I find it interesting. > > > The best at what they do rarely, if ever, get involved with > > third-party recruiters. > > This is sounding a bit elistist. Remember the folks you mentioned above? > > Bill > > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
What you mean like http://railswork.com/? ----- Ryan Bigg Freelancer Skype: radarlistener MSN & Gtalk: radarlistener-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org On 19/09/2008, at 12:19 PM, cherrian harada wrote:> Why don''t you guys just create a different forum for these job > postings? Would that benefit the whole RoR community? > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Bill Walton > <bill.walton-xwVYE8SWAR3R7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > Gregory Seidman wrote: > > They also contribute some value to the ever-changing > > segment of the list membership seeking employment. > > Thanks for recognizing the needs of those list members. > > > I saw two or three messages just today. I''m worried > > that the trickle will become a flood. > > I''ll come at this from two directions: > > 1) Let''s deal with it then. OTOH, I''m all in favor of disaster > planning. > So how ''bout you take the lead and start working up some quantiative > triggers and the actions those would invoke and the resources > required to > accomplish those actions (human or machine cycles) and we can work > together > to get everything ready for the flood. > > 2) Let it rain! One way I look at the postings here is as a measure > of > which way the market for RoR talent is moving. But then, I leave > the tv > downstairs turned on to CNN or MSNBC for pretty much the same > reason: I > stop and take a look at the ticker any time I walk by. It''s not > generally > actionable, but I find it interesting. > > > The best at what they do rarely, if ever, get involved with > > third-party recruiters. > > This is sounding a bit elistist. Remember the folks you mentioned > above? > > Bill > > > > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Yes! That''s great... So, why not have the recruiters post their job listing instead of sending e-mails directly to the discussion forum? That sounds like a possible good solution.... On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Ryan Bigg <radarlistener-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> What you mean like http://railswork.com/? > ----- > Ryan Bigg > Freelancer > Skype: radarlistener > MSN & Gtalk: radarlistener-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org > > > > > > > On 19/09/2008, at 12:19 PM, cherrian harada wrote: > > Why don''t you guys just create a different forum for these job postings? > Would that benefit the whole RoR community? > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Bill Walton <bill.walton-xwVYE8SWAR3R7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org>wrote: > >> >> Gregory Seidman wrote: >> > They also contribute some value to the ever-changing >> > segment of the list membership seeking employment. >> >> Thanks for recognizing the needs of those list members. >> >> > I saw two or three messages just today. I''m worried >> > that the trickle will become a flood. >> >> I''ll come at this from two directions: >> >> 1) Let''s deal with it then. OTOH, I''m all in favor of disaster planning. >> So how ''bout you take the lead and start working up some quantiative >> triggers and the actions those would invoke and the resources required to >> accomplish those actions (human or machine cycles) and we can work >> together >> to get everything ready for the flood. >> >> 2) Let it rain! One way I look at the postings here is as a measure of >> which way the market for RoR talent is moving. But then, I leave the tv >> downstairs turned on to CNN or MSNBC for pretty much the same reason: I >> stop and take a look at the ticker any time I walk by. It''s not generally >> actionable, but I find it interesting. >> >> > The best at what they do rarely, if ever, get involved with >> > third-party recruiters. >> >> This is sounding a bit elistist. Remember the folks you mentioned above? >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
the list could be re-implemented as a rails application with socially moderated member accounts.. we are so many in here that it could be the fastest project ever deployed! ;D On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:19 PM, cherrian harada <cchin19-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> Yes! That''s great... > So, why not have the recruiters post their job listing instead of sending > e-mails directly to the discussion forum? That sounds like a possible good > solution.... > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Ryan Bigg <radarlistener-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>wrote: > >> What you mean like http://railswork.com/? >> ----- >> Ryan Bigg >> Freelancer >> Skype: radarlistener >> MSN & Gtalk: radarlistener-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 19/09/2008, at 12:19 PM, cherrian harada wrote: >> >> Why don''t you guys just create a different forum for these job >> postings? Would that benefit the whole RoR community? >> >> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Bill Walton <bill.walton-xwVYE8SWAR3R7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org>wrote: >> >>> >>> Gregory Seidman wrote: >>> > They also contribute some value to the ever-changing >>> > segment of the list membership seeking employment. >>> >>> Thanks for recognizing the needs of those list members. >>> >>> > I saw two or three messages just today. I''m worried >>> > that the trickle will become a flood. >>> >>> I''ll come at this from two directions: >>> >>> 1) Let''s deal with it then. OTOH, I''m all in favor of disaster >>> planning. >>> So how ''bout you take the lead and start working up some quantiative >>> triggers and the actions those would invoke and the resources required to >>> accomplish those actions (human or machine cycles) and we can work >>> together >>> to get everything ready for the flood. >>> >>> 2) Let it rain! One way I look at the postings here is as a measure of >>> which way the market for RoR talent is moving. But then, I leave the tv >>> downstairs turned on to CNN or MSNBC for pretty much the same reason: I >>> stop and take a look at the ticker any time I walk by. It''s not >>> generally >>> actionable, but I find it interesting. >>> >>> > The best at what they do rarely, if ever, get involved with >>> > third-party recruiters. >>> >>> This is sounding a bit elistist. Remember the folks you mentioned above? >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>-- Emanuele Tozzato +1 (619) 549 3230 4955 Narragansett Ave Apt #9 San Diego Ca 92107-3157 http://mekdigital.com --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
I agree completly. lets built it. On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Emanuele Tozzato <etozzato-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>wrote:> > the list could be re-implemented as a rails application with socially > moderated member accounts.. we are so many in here that it could be the > fastest project ever deployed! ;D > > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:19 PM, cherrian harada <cchin19-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>wrote: > >> Yes! That''s great... >> So, why not have the recruiters post their job listing instead of sending >> e-mails directly to the discussion forum? That sounds like a possible good >> solution.... >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Ryan Bigg <radarlistener-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>wrote: >> >>> What you mean like http://railswork.com/? >>> ----- >>> Ryan Bigg >>> Freelancer >>> Skype: radarlistener >>> MSN & Gtalk: radarlistener-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 19/09/2008, at 12:19 PM, cherrian harada wrote: >>> >>> Why don''t you guys just create a different forum for these job >>> postings? Would that benefit the whole RoR community? >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Bill Walton <bill.walton-xwVYE8SWAR3R7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org>wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Gregory Seidman wrote: >>>> > They also contribute some value to the ever-changing >>>> > segment of the list membership seeking employment. >>>> >>>> Thanks for recognizing the needs of those list members. >>>> >>>> > I saw two or three messages just today. I''m worried >>>> > that the trickle will become a flood. >>>> >>>> I''ll come at this from two directions: >>>> >>>> 1) Let''s deal with it then. OTOH, I''m all in favor of disaster >>>> planning. >>>> So how ''bout you take the lead and start working up some quantiative >>>> triggers and the actions those would invoke and the resources required >>>> to >>>> accomplish those actions (human or machine cycles) and we can work >>>> together >>>> to get everything ready for the flood. >>>> >>>> 2) Let it rain! One way I look at the postings here is as a measure of >>>> which way the market for RoR talent is moving. But then, I leave the tv >>>> downstairs turned on to CNN or MSNBC for pretty much the same reason: I >>>> stop and take a look at the ticker any time I walk by. It''s not >>>> generally >>>> actionable, but I find it interesting. >>>> >>>> > The best at what they do rarely, if ever, get involved with >>>> > third-party recruiters. >>>> >>>> This is sounding a bit elistist. Remember the folks you mentioned >>>> above? >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > -- > Emanuele Tozzato > +1 (619) 549 3230 > 4955 Narragansett Ave Apt #9 > San Diego Ca 92107-3157 > http://mekdigital.com > > > >-- with love sreeprasad --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
I say, we use red. It''ll shine brightly in sunlight. And will look lovely under moonlight On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:01 AM, sreeprasad sp <sreeprasad.sp-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> I agree completly. lets built it. > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Emanuele Tozzato <etozzato-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> > wrote: >> >> the list could be re-implemented as a rails application with socially >> moderated member accounts.. we are so many in here that it could be the >> fastest project ever deployed! ;D >> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:19 PM, cherrian harada <cchin19-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> >> wrote: >>> >>> Yes! That''s great... >>> So, why not have the recruiters post their job listing instead of sending >>> e-mails directly to the discussion forum? That sounds like a possible good >>> solution.... >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Ryan Bigg <radarlistener-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> What you mean like http://railswork.com/? >>>> ----- >>>> Ryan Bigg >>>> Freelancer >>>> Skype: radarlistener >>>> MSN & Gtalk: radarlistener-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 19/09/2008, at 12:19 PM, cherrian harada wrote: >>>> >>>> Why don''t you guys just create a different forum for these job >>>> postings? Would that benefit the whole RoR community? >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Bill Walton <bill.walton-xwVYE8SWAR3R7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Gregory Seidman wrote: >>>>> > They also contribute some value to the ever-changing >>>>> > segment of the list membership seeking employment. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for recognizing the needs of those list members. >>>>> >>>>> > I saw two or three messages just today. I''m worried >>>>> > that the trickle will become a flood. >>>>> >>>>> I''ll come at this from two directions: >>>>> >>>>> 1) Let''s deal with it then. OTOH, I''m all in favor of disaster >>>>> planning. >>>>> So how ''bout you take the lead and start working up some quantiative >>>>> triggers and the actions those would invoke and the resources required >>>>> to >>>>> accomplish those actions (human or machine cycles) and we can work >>>>> together >>>>> to get everything ready for the flood. >>>>> >>>>> 2) Let it rain! One way I look at the postings here is as a measure of >>>>> which way the market for RoR talent is moving. But then, I leave the >>>>> tv >>>>> downstairs turned on to CNN or MSNBC for pretty much the same reason: >>>>> I >>>>> stop and take a look at the ticker any time I walk by. It''s not >>>>> generally >>>>> actionable, but I find it interesting. >>>>> >>>>> > The best at what they do rarely, if ever, get involved with >>>>> > third-party recruiters. >>>>> >>>>> This is sounding a bit elistist. Remember the folks you mentioned >>>>> above? >>>>> >>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Emanuele Tozzato >> +1 (619) 549 3230 >> 4955 Narragansett Ave Apt #9 >> San Diego Ca 92107-3157 >> http://mekdigital.com >> >> > > > > -- > with love > sreeprasad > > > >-- Cheers! - Pratik http://m.onkey.org --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
I believe it''s a mistake to apply stereotypes to third-party recruiters. I''ve worked with enough of them over a twenty year contracting career to know they''re just people, exactly like the rest of us. The best are true professionals, very good at what they do and a real pleasure to work with. The worst can be so bad as to reflect poorly upon the entire human race. But far and away, most are simply average, decent folk doing their best to make a living. That said, I also believe it''s inappropriate for recruiters to troll technical forums for recruits. I suspect it''s ineffective as well: I''d never go to a hardware store to shop for groceries, and I''d never come here to look for a job. Call me old-fashioned, but I believe jobs belong on a job board. On Sep 18, 12:19 pm, Gregory Seidman <gsslist+...-dNXPQ6k9rNiG6BJUYyje5axOck334EZe@public.gmane.org> wrote:> I realize that the Rails list has historically been open to job postings, > and I generally think that''s a good idea. Recently, though, there have been > several posts by third-party recruiters and recruitment firms. My > experience with third-party recruiters has been pretty mediocre, and none > of the employers I''ve ever had were interested in hiring through them. > There are also plenty of stories on the web describing third-party recruiters > as liars or worse. > > Even without that background, though, I''ve noticed that job notices from > employers themselves make an effort to be informative and to attract > quality candidates, notices from third-party recruiters are usually nothing > more than anonymized copy and paste from some job website. > > I propose that we, as a community, consider this list closed to third-party > recruiters while continuing to welcome job notices from direct employers. > Job notices are always noise here, as opposed to the signal of technical > discussion of Rails, but those from third-party recruiters are actively > unpleasant and largely useless noise in a way in which direct employer > notices are not. > > --Greg--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---