... and try to write some documentation It is completely unusefull to develop, develop, develop without documentation, tutorials etc... -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Get a grip dude. Buy the book and start coding. Imagine all the people that started many months ago without docs. Are we special? No We just loved it and STARTED -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
"Buy the book"...you say like this is the Bible.. You couldn''t say "buy one of the tens of great books about rails", right? there are 1 or 2 books everyone talks about... documentation is just missing in rails...:( peter wrote:> Get a grip dude. > > Buy the book and start coding. > > Imagine all the people that started many months ago > without docs. > > Are we special? No > We just loved it and STARTED-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Agile Web Development With Rails = Rails bible Programming Ruby = Ruby bible Ruby for Rails = better understanding of what Ruby''s role in Rails is bible http://rails.rubyonrails.org/ = Rails API bible Craig On Mon, 2006-11-06 at 14:16 +0100, Bob wrote:> "Buy the book"...you say like this is the Bible.. > You couldn''t say "buy one of the tens of great books about rails", > right? there are 1 or 2 books everyone talks about... > documentation is just missing in rails...:( > > peter wrote: > > Get a grip dude. > > > > Buy the book and start coding. > > > > Imagine all the people that started many months ago > > without docs. > > > > Are we special? No > > We just loved it and STARTED > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
ljredpath-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
2006-Nov-06 13:32 UTC
Re: ****[Rails] Re: Stop developing Rails !!!
Have you actually looked at the API docs Bob? They aren''t perfect but there is plenty of information there. Plenty of other people have learn Rails quite successfully with the current documentation. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Bob wrote:> ... and try to write some documentation It is completely unusefull to > develop, develop, develop without documentation, tutorials etc...Cool, looking forward to seeing documentation patches from you. You did just volunteer, didn''t you? -- Jakob Skjerning - http://mentalized.net --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Bob wrote:> documentation is just missing in rails...:(http://api.rubyonrails.com/ http://www.google.com/ What more do you need? :-) Here''s a list of Rails Books: http://www.rubyonrails.com/books The Agile book is good, recipes and ruby for rails are good as well. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Bob wrote:> ... and try to write some documentation > It is completely unusefull to develop, develop, develop without > documentation, tutorials etc...The new Ruby on Rails eCommerce books just came out (Apress.com) Other books: Ruby for Rails (Manning.com) Ruby on Rails up and running (oreilly.com) Ruby on Rails 1st and 2nd additions Rails Recipes Ruby Cookbook (oreilly.com) The Ruby Way 2nd Edition (just released) McGraw Hill(?) LOTS of Ruby and Rails info out there, even more books coming out over the next three months. Compare this to one book for TurboGears (so far), and a yet to be finished book for Django. Rails at this point has very solid documentation already. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
You are severely disturbed if you think that Google and the (current) API docs are all you need to learn Rails. I don''t think API docs are a good place to point newbies; I think RDocs are great for people who "get it" but need a little nudging. I agree with the OP. Rails'' docs suck for over half of the people who are going to come to Rails. This is why we have a lot people asking questions on the mailing list that could/should be answered by quality documentation. I''m working on trying to fix this documentation conundrum that with my books, but I''m only one person and the featureset is so fluid that it''s hard (at this point, impossible) to keep up. I think it''s kind of ridiculous to ask someone to pay $40 for book to be able to use your framework because your documentation is terrible. I really hope that the documentation drive takes off and produces something useful. I apologize for the rant. --Jeremy On 11/6/06, David Coleman <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > Bob wrote: > > documentation is just missing in rails...:( > > http://api.rubyonrails.com/ > http://www.google.com/ > > What more do you need? :-) > > Here''s a list of Rails Books: > http://www.rubyonrails.com/books > > The Agile book is good, recipes and ruby for rails are good as well. > > > > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On 11/6/06, Trace Donaldson <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > > Bob wrote: > > ... and try to write some documentation > > It is completely unusefull to develop, develop, develop without > > documentation, tutorials etc... > > The new Ruby on Rails eCommerce books just came out (Apress.com)How is Apress with updates to the PDF ? Looks like an interesting book. The TOC of the O''Reilly Rails Cookbook looks great. If it''s anythign like the Ruby Cookbook it''s never leaving my side. Stuart Other books:> > Ruby for Rails (Manning.com) > Ruby on Rails up and running (oreilly.com) > Ruby on Rails 1st and 2nd additions > Rails Recipes > Ruby Cookbook (oreilly.com) > The Ruby Way 2nd Edition (just released) McGraw Hill(?) > > LOTS of Ruby and Rails info out there, even more books coming out over > the next three months. Compare this to one book for TurboGears (so > far), and a yet to be finished book for Django. Rails at this point has > very solid documentation already. > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > >-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_ambient --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
I agree there are some good books out there. But a fuller online documentation would be very useful. I think there is potential if people contribute to either: Ruby on Rails Manual <http://railsmanual.org/> or http://rdoc.caboo.se/ (Actually, a combination of the approaches from the above two sites would be nice.) Something like this would be cool to develop: http://djangobook.com/ At the same time, we can''t expect the Rails Devs to do all this. It''s nice enough of them to be putting time into developing the framework in the first place. A must say though that a lack of clear documentation does make Rails adoption difficult especially once you get past the real basics. If you''re saving time coding but have to spend that time googling for answers and asking on mailing lists or experimenting with trial and error because the parameters for some method aren''t clearly documented, well, it gets a little discouraging. (That said, I''m still a Rails convert!) On 11/6/06, Dark Ambient <sambient-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > On 11/6/06, Trace Donaldson <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > > > > Bob wrote: > > > ... and try to write some documentation > > > It is completely unusefull to develop, develop, develop without > > > documentation, tutorials etc... > > > > The new Ruby on Rails eCommerce books just came out ( Apress.com) > > > > How is Apress with updates to the PDF ? Looks like an interesting book. > The TOC of the O''Reilly Rails Cookbook looks great. If it''s anythign like > the Ruby Cookbook it''s never leaving my side. > > Stuart > > Other books: > > > > Ruby for Rails ( Manning.com) > > Ruby on Rails up and running (oreilly.com) > > Ruby on Rails 1st and 2nd additions > > Rails Recipes > > Ruby Cookbook (oreilly.com) > > The Ruby Way 2nd Edition (just released) McGraw Hill(?) > > > > LOTS of Ruby and Rails info out there, even more books coming out over > > the next three months. Compare this to one book for TurboGears (so > > far), and a yet to be finished book for Django. Rails at this point has > > > > very solid documentation already. > > > > -- > > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_ambient > > >-- "Impossible is nothing." --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
In some terms I must agree with Bob. It is really hard to find the right path. For me that I am coming from the ASP Classic world it is even harder - because I think in a total different way. A couple of minutes ago I had a problem with my password in the user account that dont needs to be validated when the user updates the account data and dont inserts a new password and only needs to be validated when the user enteres a new password. Ok, I found the solution here in the forum but it looks really strange to me and I wonder how I could get onto this solution by myself. validates_presence_of :password, :if => :password_required? validates_confirmation_of :password, :if => :password_required? def password_required? hashed_password.blank? or not password.blank? end I even couldnt find the ".blank?" thing and what it does. Its not avail. in the API nor in the RUBY docs - or I am too stupid. I can imagine that it checkes if a string is blank - but than I tried it somewhere else in the code and it doesnt work. So I am unsure why it is not working. And the error messages are another great mess. For me they are saying absolutly nothing. I am really interested in coding in rails and leave ASP for ever behind - because the modell behavior is really great but the way is hard. Also in the Agile Web development book are "MANY" bugs - which doesnt make it easier. I am sitting here since 2 Weeks and coding my first app with rails but most of the code is from the forum - and some code I dont even know what it is doing. On the plus side: Its getting better every day. Andreas - a total noob here! -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
and one last thing: why is there no api and docs that are searchable? would be great -andreas -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Andreas Schneider wrote:> and one last thing: > why is there no api and docs that are searchable? > would be great > > -andreasWhat seems to be really sad is that over $10k was collected to greatly improve the documentation. I''ve not heard any more about those plans. Anyone? -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On 11/6/06, Andreas Schneider <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > > and one last thing: > why is there no api and docs that are searchable? > would be great > >There are a few: Ruby on Rails Manual <http://railsmanual.org/> API with live-search <http://api.rails2u.com/> gotAPI.com :: Reference Lookup Service <http://www.gotapi.com/index.html> -- "Impossible is nothing." --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Here''s an update: http://blog.caboo.se/articles/2006/10/27/doc-project-update Watch their blog for updates. After reading that I feel no more educated about where the money went/is going, but at least it''s something. --Jeremy On 11/6/06, Bill <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > Andreas Schneider wrote: > > and one last thing: > > why is there no api and docs that are searchable? > > would be great > > > > -andreas > > What seems to be really sad is that over $10k was collected to greatly > improve the documentation. I''ve not heard any more about those plans. > > Anyone? > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Nov 6, 2006, at 10:01 AM, Andreas Schneider wrote:> > It is really hard to find the right path. For me that I am coming from > the ASP Classic world it is even harder - because I think in a total > different way. >I think this is probably the most insightful point... Rails is an extraction of ideas and what DHH (and many others) consider to be best practices. So for many of us, it is easy to find the answers, because we already think that way. I''ve rarely had any problem finding what I need, and IRC usually provides the rest. But just before rails came about, I already was looking for ways to do things this way; rails just did it first and better. :)> I even couldnt find the ".blank?" thing and what it does. Its not > avail.IIRC, blank? was added in recent edge rails, so if you are using the stable release, it may not be there. Same caveat if you have bought the beta version of "Agile Programming with Rails". I wonder if some of the forum and wiki pages also suffer from this. People need to be clear what version they are using; due to the incredibly fast pace of development, I suspect a lot of people are using edge rails.> - because the modell behavior is really great but the way is hard. > Also > in the Agile Web development book are "MANY" bugs - which doesnt > make it > easier. >Again, what version of rails and what version of that book?> I am sitting here since 2 Weeks and coding my first app with rails but > most of the code is from the forum - and some code I dont even know > what > it is doing. > > On the plus side: Its getting better every day.As I said before, I think the biggest issue is learning to think in a different way. It''s sorta like the transition from being a procedural programmer to a OO programmer. David Morton Maia Mailguard http://www.maiamailguard.com mortonda-0/IDydmJJnNeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFT2DBUy30ODPkzl0RAs4iAKDQGbvCcspUGQwBeU4yqStCqlvTbgCfbnLh OR+ijMbP6lxM/8fA/ajYIvo=QERo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
With the ri browser in radrails or the rdoc widget at http://widgets.precisionis.com.au/ you can search through the api. Fred -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Nov 6, 2006, at 7:30 AM, Jeremy McAnally wrote:> I think it''s kind of ridiculous to ask someone to pay $40 for book to > be able to use your framework because your documentation is terrible.Though it''s not ridiculous to pay $40 for a book that will teach you to use a framework that has less than ideal documentation, if buying that book and using that framework might save you more time *per day*, and therefore make you more money *per day*, than the book will cost you, assuming you charge about 1 book/hour. :-) -- -- Tom Mornini, CTO -- Engine Yard, Ruby on Rails Hosting -- Reliability, Ease of Use, Scalability -- (866) 518-YARD (9273) --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Well a documentation in HTML is great. Is there some free software avail. that can index html files to build a simple search? To add another thing on the rails problems: The Installation => on OS X! it took me 5 tries and over 3 days to get it running with mysql - no joke! The worst thing is that you also need to be very familiar with OSx Unix commands and that you need to compile everything. I know this is a known practice in the opensource world - I personaly like installers. Than I know what to deinstall. All the things that I donwloaded and did a ''tar xyz someting'' - I dont know how many files are now on my mac to make ruby and rails working. I also wonder why the download urls of those installers and tar packages are on totaly different servers? Thats confusing? You need to be a real geek to get that baby running. I know there is also locomotive - but I heard it is better to compile everything so it could be better updated later - dont know why? - at the end - I dont know how to update - is there an update function or a magic word that i need to insert into the shell? For me - all the things that I done with rails are more coincidences. problems with Textmate are also not easy to me. I wonder why most of the keyshortcuts not working? -andreas -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Right, but many poor students like myself can''t shovel out that kind of money at every little piece of tech that flights our fancy. If I can''t tell that it''s going to save me money (i.e., by using it in a real situation), then I''m not going to shovel the money out. Fortunately, I''ve been doing web development for a while, so I picked up on enough basics to know that Rails could save me a butt load of time. But I know other people who have been doing app development for a while or don''t know anything about web development who refuse to pick up Rails because they don''t see the benefit in it, _mostly_ because they don''t understand enough about it to put it into use and gauge it''s usefulness. --Jeremy On 11/6/06, Tom Mornini <tmornini-W/9V78bTXriB+jHODAdFcQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > On Nov 6, 2006, at 7:30 AM, Jeremy McAnally wrote: > > > I think it''s kind of ridiculous to ask someone to pay $40 for book to > > be able to use your framework because your documentation is terrible. > > Though it''s not ridiculous to pay $40 for a book that will teach you to > use a framework that has less than ideal documentation, if buying that > book and using that framework might save you more time *per day*, and > therefore make you more money *per day*, than the book will cost you, > assuming you charge about 1 book/hour. :-) > > -- > -- Tom Mornini, CTO > -- Engine Yard, Ruby on Rails Hosting > -- Reliability, Ease of Use, Scalability > -- (866) 518-YARD (9273) > > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On documentation: I''ve found the following CHM version of the Rails API to be very helpful. Quick and easy to search. View with xCHM on *nix. http://delynnberry.com/2006/10/16/rails-chm-documentation-version-1-1-6 On 11/6/06, Jeremy McAnally <jeremymcanally-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > > Right, but many poor students like myself can''t shovel out that kind > of money at every little piece of tech that flights our fancy. If I > can''t tell that it''s going to save me money (i.e., by using it in a > real situation), then I''m not going to shovel the money out. > > Fortunately, I''ve been doing web development for a while, so I picked > up on enough basics to know that Rails could save me a butt load of > time. But I know other people who have been doing app development for > a while or don''t know anything about web development who refuse to > pick up Rails because they don''t see the benefit in it, _mostly_ > because they don''t understand enough about it to put it into use and > gauge it''s usefulness. > > --Jeremy > > On 11/6/06, Tom Mornini <tmornini-W/9V78bTXriB+jHODAdFcQ@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > > On Nov 6, 2006, at 7:30 AM, Jeremy McAnally wrote: > > > > > I think it''s kind of ridiculous to ask someone to pay $40 for book to > > > be able to use your framework because your documentation is terrible. > > > > Though it''s not ridiculous to pay $40 for a book that will teach you to > > use a framework that has less than ideal documentation, if buying that > > book and using that framework might save you more time *per day*, and > > therefore make you more money *per day*, than the book will cost you, > > assuming you charge about 1 book/hour. :-) > > > > -- > > -- Tom Mornini, CTO > > -- Engine Yard, Ruby on Rails Hosting > > -- Reliability, Ease of Use, Scalability > > -- (866) 518-YARD (9273) > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- "Impossible is nothing." --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
There is good stuff out there. Maybe not obvious to find though, for example getting rails up and running on OS X is dead easy with this step by step thingy: http://hivelogic.com/articles/2005/12/01/ruby_rails_lighttpd_mysql_tiger. The widget I linked to earlier is pretty handy for searching through the docs, i use it all the time. It probably would be handy if everything was available for download from one place, but then the people writing rails aren''t the same as the people writing ruby, who aren''t the same as the people writing mysql who aren''t the sames as the ones writing lighttpd. But once you''ve got the basics you can just gem install blah for post things As for being a geek, well you are are a programmer after all :-) Fred -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Hello David,> > I even couldnt find the ".blank?" thing and what it does. Its not > > avail. > > IIRC, blank? was added in recent edge rails, so if you are using the > stable release, it may not be there.#blank? is in ActiveSupport since 1.2.1, so it's in Rails since 0.14.1. -- Jean-François. -- À la renverse. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
ljredpath-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
2006-Nov-06 17:12 UTC
Re: Stop developing Rails !!!
"The worst thing is that you also need to be very familiar with OSx Unix commands and that you need to compile everything" No offence but I find it slightly annoying when I read this. You''re meant to be a programmer for crying out loud! Why do you need a graphical UI to hold your hand? If you don''t know your way around a Unix terminal - learn! No programmer worth their salt should be afraid of getting down and dirty with the terminal, or learning how to do so. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
There is indeed *very* poor documentation regarding rails. I was looking about rjs for instance, and believe me, it was very difficult for me to find some usefull tutorials... This is a problem with almost all open source software. Everyone like to code, but who likes to write doc? Frederick Cheung wrote:> There is good stuff out there. Maybe not obvious to find though, for > example getting rails up and running on OS X is dead easy with this step > by step thingy:-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
yeah, I agree. Tutorial and API alone is not enough. Rails is just a web dev framework in Ruby. so Ruby is must before even trying Rails. I found that "The Little Book of Ruby" was very helpful in learning enough Ruby to be able to read Rails code. Then went to rubyonrails.org tutorial page and tried all tutorial there. And then went to Barns and Noble got Ruby Cookbook (couldn''t wait 3 day shipping from amazon) and read chapter 15. Then finally I was able to consume Rails API documentation and have fun, having fun, of course I am happy. It took me 3 weeks for this, with 2 kids and 1 wife screaming at you all the time and full time work during the day. pretty good no? :) now I have to think about how to make living with Rails. -- 1. read "The Little Book of Ruby" 2. do all Tutorial from rubyonrails.org 3. read Ruby Cookbook from Oreilly Chapter 15 (US $49.99). 4. read Rails API On 11/6/06, Andreas Schneider <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > In some terms I must agree with Bob. > > It is really hard to find the right path. For me that I am coming from > the ASP Classic world it is even harder - because I think in a total > different way. > > A couple of minutes ago I had a problem with my password in the user > account that dont needs to be validated when the user updates the > account data and dont inserts a new password and only needs to be > validated when the user enteres a new password. Ok, I found the solution > here in the forum but it looks really strange to me and I wonder how I > could get onto this solution by myself. > > validates_presence_of :password, :if => :password_required? > validates_confirmation_of :password, :if => :password_required? > > def password_required? > hashed_password.blank? or not password.blank? > end > > I even couldnt find the ".blank?" thing and what it does. Its not avail. > in the API nor in the RUBY docs - or I am too stupid. I can imagine that > it checkes if a string is blank - but than I tried it somewhere else in > the code and it doesnt work. So I am unsure why it is not working. And > the error messages are another great mess. For me they are saying > absolutly nothing. > > I am really interested in coding in rails and leave ASP for ever behind > - because the modell behavior is really great but the way is hard. Also > in the Agile Web development book are "MANY" bugs - which doesnt make it > easier. > > I am sitting here since 2 Weeks and coding my first app with rails but > most of the code is from the forum - and some code I dont even know what > it is doing. > > On the plus side: Its getting better every day. > > Andreas - a total noob here! > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Andreas Schneider wrote:> and one last thing: > why is there no api and docs that are searchable? > would be great > > -andreasYou can search the api''s here http://www.gotapi.com/ or here: http://railsmanual.org/ I agree that it''s hard sometimes to find the "right" way to do something, but that''s part of the fun IMO :-) -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jeremy McAnally wrote:> But I know other people who have been doing app development for > a while or don''t know anything about web development who refuse to > pick up Rails because they don''t see the benefit in it, _mostly_ > because they don''t understand enough about it to put it into use and > gauge it''s usefulness.That is their problem. There is enough information on the web pointing out the usefulness of Rails. It took myself and others in my company under an hour, almost 2 years ago now to run a simple demo which showed us the immediate benefit of using Rails and ActiveRecord over JBoss and Hibernate given our requirements. If you want to evangelize rails then do so, but don''t push for the rails core team or DHH to write beginner level documentation just to open the eyes of people who are too stubborn to check it out.> I think it''s kind of ridiculous to ask someone to pay $40 for book to > be able to use your framework because your documentation is terriblYou say you a poor college student, I am sure you''ve made worse decisions with your loan money then spending $20 for the PDF or $40 for the book. It is great that Rails is an open source free agile web framework. It is sad that so many people who want to *make* money using it expect that everything should be handed to them for *free*. And if your take on books that cost money is because the documentation sucks, I am so glad that Ruby or Rails doesn''t need 1000+ books (like Java or anything .NET) just to show you how the language and it''s libraries work. In a way I like the lack of beginner level documentation. I know it limits the growth of Ruby and/or Rails, but you at least get people who you know actually understand the langauge/technology and not those who just know how-to copy/paste. Zach -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFT3FUMyx0fW1d8G0RApUOAJ4ydDIbclO62Aj5wJgSJ3C+Gei4+ACZASw8 8Kig/lYQwtX3BZ+ZQ8txSOM=hEOb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
thanks fred and david the gotapi site is very usefull and the os x widget is also not bad I am optimistic to get into rails deeper and deeper with fun lots of things make this language a future language. on the down side - I need to finish my app fast :) -andreas -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
> There is indeed *very* poor documentation regarding rails. I was looking > about rjs for instance, and believe me, it was very difficult for me to > find some usefull tutorials... > > This is a problem with almost all open source software. > Everyone like to code, but who likes to write doc?http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/rjsrails/ $10. I haven''t read it though, but seems to be what you want.> > > Frederick Cheung wrote: >> There is good stuff out there. Maybe not obvious to find though, for >> example getting rails up and running on OS X is dead easy with this step >> by step thingy: > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
> If you want to evangelize rails then do so, but don''t push for the rails core team or DHH to write beginner level documentationI''m not pushing the core team; they''re too busy writing code (at least they should be! ;). I''m not really pushing anyone. All that''s needed is an open, introductory text. It shouldn''t be this hard, especially since the community invested thousands of dollars in something that hasn''t seen the light of day yet (even though i''m sure they''re working on it).> just to open the eyes of people who are too stubborn to check it out.That''s a completely false blanket statement. I''ve worked in computer science departments and companies where people were Java and PHP whizzes, but couldn''t understand the whole concept of architecture patterns or HTTP and web applications. I wouldn''t say they''re stubborn, they just need more cottling. It''s stupid and arrogant to say, "Well if they don''t get it, they''re just stubborn."> You say you a poor college student, I am sure you''ve made worse decisions with your loan money then spending $20 for the PDF or > $40 for the book.Heh, yeah. I''m sure _single_ college students probably do, but being married and having to actually pay bills with a monthly income that can be described as dismal (i.e., like half the poverty level), it''s very difficult for me to release that much money for something like a book about a web development framework.> In a way I like the lack of beginner level documentation. I know it limits the growth of Ruby and/or Rails, but you at least get > people who you know actually understand the langauge/technology and not those who just know how-to copy/paste.That''s just selfish and, really, childish. "Let''s keep the stupids out!" Sheesh. Again I say, this is the attitude that makes people hate Perl. --Jeremy On 11/6/06, zdennis <zdennis-aRAREQmnvsAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Jeremy McAnally wrote: > > > But I know other people who have been doing app development for > > a while or don''t know anything about web development who refuse to > > pick up Rails because they don''t see the benefit in it, _mostly_ > > because they don''t understand enough about it to put it into use and > > gauge it''s usefulness. > > That is their problem. There is enough information on the web pointing out the usefulness of Rails. It took myself and others in > my company under an hour, almost 2 years ago now to run a simple demo which showed us the immediate benefit of using Rails and > ActiveRecord over JBoss and Hibernate given our requirements. > > If you want to evangelize rails then do so, but don''t push for the rails core team or DHH to write beginner level documentation > just to open the eyes of people who are too stubborn to check it out. > > > I think it''s kind of ridiculous to ask someone to pay $40 for book to > > be able to use your framework because your documentation is terribl > > You say you a poor college student, I am sure you''ve made worse decisions with your loan money then spending $20 for the PDF or > $40 for the book. > > It is great that Rails is an open source free agile web framework. It is sad that so many people who want to *make* money using it > expect that everything should be handed to them for *free*. > > And if your take on books that cost money is because the documentation sucks, I am so glad that Ruby or Rails doesn''t need 1000+ > books (like Java or anything .NET) just to show you how the language and it''s libraries work. > > In a way I like the lack of beginner level documentation. I know it limits the growth of Ruby and/or Rails, but you at least get > people who you know actually understand the langauge/technology and not those who just know how-to copy/paste. > > Zach > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFFT3FUMyx0fW1d8G0RApUOAJ4ydDIbclO62Aj5wJgSJ3C+Gei4+ACZASw8 > 8Kig/lYQwtX3BZ+ZQ8txSOM> =hEOb > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
I think halting development of Rails is the last thing anyone should want. I''ll have to presume you were being facetious. There have been many good points in this thread, but "the docs suck" was not one of them. I get blocked on things periodically, and find it difficult to pull out of the usual resources, but more often than not the patterns are predictable and once I''ve figured it out, I get a "d''oh" moment when I realize it was documented all along, but not in the place I expected. Look, Microsoft throws hundreds of thousands of dollars at documentation and the ASP.Net documentation is nearly impossible to use. Certainly, it''s no more than a catalog of methods and attributes. You''re reduced to Google and MSDN searches if you want any context. Or a bookshelf full of $45-75 (USD) books that try to make sense of the overall usage of the framework. Rails is supposed to be a snap, but like most other frameworks, there are: - Configuration options on the machine and if you aren''t used to setting up servers, etc. it''s another learning curve - Ruby. Ok, it''s a different language. Ruby is seductively easy to use for simple tasks, but can have nuances that are not immediately apparent - Rails. It''s a framework. There is a set of patterns Rails addresses. The API documentation is reasonable if not exhaustive about how Rails addresses the problem domain it covers. There is so much enthusiasm for Rails that the Net is full of articles and new books are coming out with increased frequency. Over time, the documentation is sure to improve, but Rails may not be for everyone. If you''re trying to tie a few Web pages together programmatically, PHP may be lower hanging fruit and a more comfortable solution. If you are going for a real Web application and don''t mind chasing a dynamic, young framework, then Rails may be the most exciting place to put your learning skills to work. How about starting a page on the Wiki called "ObscureOrUndocumentedIssues" so anyone with a little extra bandwidth can try to fill in some gaps? My $.02 On Nov 6, 2006, at 4:44 AM, Bob wrote:> > ... and try to write some documentation > It is completely unusefull to develop, develop, develop without > documentation, tutorials etc... > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
aminox-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
2006-Nov-06 18:06 UTC
Re: Stop developing Rails !!!
I''ve to agree to a certain extent with Bob. I started developing on Rails couple of months ago and almost stopped entirely due to the lack of relevant and up to date online literature. The API page is no better (if not worse) than JavaDocs, which is to say pretty useless. Most, if not all, of the available tutorials are outdated and incompatible with newer versions of Rails. DaveThomas'' book is great to be sure, but not a substitute for readily available online lit. When you''re trying to get people on board, you need to make sure those people have all they need in order to be productive and start using your framework in a real-world fashion. By not having robust (and up to date) literature you simply are implicitily fending off would-be adopters. It''s not a matter of being lazy or not putting some effort, it''s a matter of getting past the hype and hooplah and opening the framework to everyone who wants to take a stab at it. Bob ha escrito:> ... and try to write some documentation > It is completely unusefull to develop, develop, develop without > documentation, tutorials etc... > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
David Morton wrote:> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > On Nov 6, 2006, at 10:01 AM, Andreas Schneider wrote: > > > > It is really hard to find the right path. For me that I am coming from > > the ASP Classic world it is even harder - because I think in a total > > different way. > > > > I think this is probably the most insightful point... Rails is an > extraction of ideas and what DHH (and many others) consider to be > best practices. So for many of us, it is easy to find the answers, > because we already think that way. I''ve rarely had any problem > finding what I need, and IRC usually provides the rest. But just > before rails came about, I already was looking for ways to do things > this way; rails just did it first and better. :) > > > I even couldnt find the ".blank?" thing and what it does. Its not > > avail. > > IIRC, blank? was added in recent edge rails, so if you are using the > stable release, it may not be there. Same caveat if you have bought > the beta version of "Agile Programming with Rails". I wonder if > some of the forum and wiki pages also suffer from this. People need > to be clear what version they are using; due to the incredibly fast > pace of development, I suspect a lot of people are using edge rails. > > > > - because the modell behavior is really great but the way is hard. > > Also > > in the Agile Web development book are "MANY" bugs - which doesnt > > make it > > easier. > > > > Again, what version of rails and what version of that book? > > > > I am sitting here since 2 Weeks and coding my first app with rails but > > most of the code is from the forum - and some code I dont even know > > what > > it is doing. > > > > On the plus side: Its getting better every day. > > As I said before, I think the biggest issue is learning to think in a > different way. It''s sorta like the transition from being a procedural > programmer to a OO programmer. > > > David Morton > Maia Mailguard http://www.maiamailguard.com > mortonda-0/IDydmJJnNeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) > > iD8DBQFFT2DBUy30ODPkzl0RAs4iAKDQGbvCcspUGQwBeU4yqStCqlvTbgCfbnLh > OR+ijMbP6lxM/8fA/ajYIvo> =QERo > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----The problems with documentation are not new, in fact some people are actually trying to do something about it by hiring a professional to spend some quality time with the docs. http://blog.caboo.se/pages/documentation_drive _Kevin --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
<...>> It''s not a > matter of being lazy or not putting some effort, it''s a matter of > getting past the hype and hooplah and opening the framework to everyone > who wants to take a stab at it.<...> I still think this is the matter of being lazy. Also, I do not think it is a good idea to open it to everyone. "These people should not be helped. There is an informal mountaineering rule that you never help incompetents up a mountain to killed higher up, only down, to get out alive." http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2003/04/03/Bruce-Eckel-said-SOAP-sucks#c1049439459 Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
aminox-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
2006-Nov-06 18:22 UTC
Re: Stop developing Rails !!!
"I still think this is the matter of being lazy. Also, I do not think it is a good idea to open it to everyone. " Very opinionated answer there. I''m sure the developers of Rails DO WANT to give access to whoever wants it. If you don''t, I strongly advise to start your own framework with your own exclusive rules. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
> I am really interested in coding in rails and leave ASP for ever behind > - because the modell behavior is really great but the way is hard. Also > in the Agile Web development book are "MANY" bugs - which doesnt make it > easier.Let''s set the record straight. There are NOT many bugs in the Agile Web Development book. The framework has changed significantly since the first edition was written. That''s no the fault of the author. The rewrite is available as a beta book. Purchase that one and you''ll get the latest info and the final version when it''s done. Michael --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
So now we take advice on how to treat users and fellow developers from a Java guy? I''m sure you can fork Rails and have fun with your "smart" community of people who "get it." I''m pretty sure the Rails core would rather leave theirs open. --Jeremy On 11/6/06, Rimantas Liubertas <rimantas-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > <...> > > It''s not a > > matter of being lazy or not putting some effort, it''s a matter of > > getting past the hype and hooplah and opening the framework to everyone > > who wants to take a stab at it. > <...> > > I still think this is the matter of being lazy. Also, I do not think > it is a good > idea to open it to everyone. > > "These people should not be helped. There is an informal > mountaineering rule that you never help incompetents up a mountain to > killed higher up, only down, to get out alive." > > http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2003/04/03/Bruce-Eckel-said-SOAP-sucks#c1049439459 > > > Regards, > Rimantas > -- > http://rimantas.com/ > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Nov 6, 2006, at 9:52 AM, Jeremy McAnally wrote:>> You say you a poor college student, I am sure you''ve made worse >> decisions with your loan money then spending $20 for the PDF or >> $40 for the book. > > Heh, yeah. I''m sure _single_ college students probably do, but being > married and having to actually pay bills with a monthly income that > can be described as dismal (i.e., like half the poverty level), it''s > very difficult for me to release that much money for something like a > book about a web development framework.I want to make it completely clear that what I''m about to say is not meant to be condescending at all, merely a statement of fact and my observations. If you live in the United States, or anywhere else in the world that practices some form of capitalism, you need to understand that lack of capital is going to bring substantial disadvantages to those with capital. After all, it''s literally the name of the game. The good news is that if you''re willing to risk the $20-40 of capital and buy the wonderful documentation available, then you should be able to gain a subtantial improvement in your monthly income that will more than offset the price of the docs. Hang in there. Starving student is a difficult role to play. Rails should be able to improve your lot substantially. -- -- Tom Mornini, CTO -- Engine Yard, Ruby on Rails Hosting -- Reliability, Ease of Use, Scalability -- (866) 518-YARD (9273) --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jeremy McAnally wrote:> It''s stupid and arrogant to > say, "Well if they don''t get it, they''re just stubborn."I didn''t say that people who don''t get it are stubborn. I am weary of people who *don''t* want to get it.>> In a way I like the lack of beginner level documentation. I know it limits the growth of Ruby and/or Rails, but you at least get >> people who you know actually understand the langauge/technology and not those who just know how-to copy/paste. > > That''s just selfish and, really, childish. "Let''s keep the stupids > out!" Sheesh.I didn''t say "Let''s keep the stupids out". I am weary of programmers who know how-to copy/paste code from tutorials but don''t take the time to understand how it works.> Again I say, this is the attitude that makes people hate Perl.This is a blank statement. I am a person, and I am included in the above "people". The attitude and belief that people learn or try-to-learn a language/framework that they are going to use (or say they know how-to use) is not one that makes me hate Perl (or any language community). Rails is young compared to other languages and frameworks, documentation will come over time. Asking for them is not a bad thing, but sometimes how people ask (or demand) for things can really rub the community the wrong way. As other people have pointed out this thread, there are lots of books coming from lots of publishers. And just because it isn''t free doesn''t mean it should be overlooked. At some point you''ll have to weigh in the opportunity cost for buying a book and not buying a book, save $5 a week, and in a month you''ll be able to buy the PDF. If there is a local RUG in your area, perhaps they will give or share a book with you. I collected pop cans to buy my first nintendo, it can be done. Where there is a will, there is a way, no one said it would be free or easy. Zach -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFT4MAMyx0fW1d8G0RAomPAJ4iUcgHxscVA9RfIVIM5NU35LMNJwCff+L/ 7rl+V+z1pQN8TJnznrOCpbE=CvOO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
> From: David Morton <mortonda-0/IDydmJJnNeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> > On Nov 6, 2006, at 10:01 AM, Andreas Schneider wrote: >> >> It is really hard to find the right path. For me that I am coming from >> the ASP Classic world it is even harder - because I think in a total >> different way. >> > > I think this is probably the most insightful point...I agree - coming from the Java world, it took me a while to understand some of the philosophy behind ROR. It was almost a month before I realized I didn''t have to download gems before installing. It took me longer to understand the philosophy behind Java. Although I have dozens of books on Java, the ones I have on Ruby and Rails are as good as any on Java. My thanks goes out to the people who have worked on the documentation - excellent job. While there is always room for improvement, I have found all the answers I''ve needed in my 2 months of using ruby and rails every day - until today, hence my first post to the mailing list. I look forward to the day I can contribute to both the code and the documentation. Perhaps I can help with the overviews soon. Ric Turley --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
George wrote:> There is indeed *very* poor documentation regarding rails. I was looking > about rjs for instance, and believe me, it was very difficult for me to > find some usefull tutorials... > > This is a problem with almost all open source software. > Everyone like to code, but who likes to write doc? > >I find this hard to believe - the first site listed in google search of "rails rjs" has been Cody Fauser''s site for at least a couple of months - you will find no better reference than his PDF booklet at O''Reilly (linked from his site). <soapbox> Perhaps all this complaining is about the lack of quality FREE documentation, and to some extent that is true, but it''s not just a RoR thing. I don''t think I''ve had respect for the delivered doc of any major dev/design product I''ve purchased in the past 10 years. I usually toss delivered doc and instead look first to PeachPit Visual Quickstart/Quickpro guides, or O''Reilly books if I want to really learn something well and quickly - and I pay $20 - $50 for those proven sources of information. It is true that no one likes to write doc. As such, it should not be any surprise that in the open source world documentation is lacking - open source projects thrive because the people working on them enjoy it. Absent sustaining enjoyment of doing something (which as stated is missing when it comes to doc), there generally needs to be a profit motive. I have no problem coming here and sharing what I know with folks asking questions, because when I have a question I get paid back in spades, but if I took a significant amount of time to write something on a quality par with the likes of Fauser''s booklet, then yes I''d probably like to be compensated for it. On the other side of the fence, as a developer, I have no problem paying reasonable money for really good information, and likewise I have no tolerance for people who are reluctant to pay $10 or $20 for the same. I''m not saying posters on this thread necessarily are those people, but we''ve all seen posts along the lines of "that book looks good, sure, but do you know where I can find that same high-quality, step-by-step, teach-me-everything-I-need-to-know treasure-trove of info, but for free?" No, I''m sorry, I don''t. </soapbox> c. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Rdoc does an amazing job of self documenting uncommented code No other languages core documentation even comes close to facilitating that here: http://rubyonrails.org/docs http://www.ruby-doc.org/core http://www.ruby-doc.org/stdlib That said rails has some fragmentation issues in this area. I usually come across these when looking for examples and tutorials for plugins and gems. I guess I could generate the documentation for the plugins myself but im lazy -----Original Message----- From: rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org [mailto:rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Ric Turley Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 11:00 AM To: rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Subject: [Rails] Re: Stop developing Rails !!!> From: David Morton <mortonda-0/IDydmJJnNeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org> > On Nov 6, 2006, at 10:01 AM, Andreas Schneider wrote: >> >> It is really hard to find the right path. For me that I am coming from >> the ASP Classic world it is even harder - because I think in a total >> different way. >> > > I think this is probably the most insightful point...I agree - coming from the Java world, it took me a while to understand some of the philosophy behind ROR. It was almost a month before I realized I didn''t have to download gems before installing. It took me longer to understand the philosophy behind Java. Although I have dozens of books on Java, the ones I have on Ruby and Rails are as good as any on Java. My thanks goes out to the people who have worked on the documentation - excellent job. While there is always room for improvement, I have found all the answers I''ve needed in my 2 months of using ruby and rails every day - until today, hence my first post to the mailing list. I look forward to the day I can contribute to both the code and the documentation. Perhaps I can help with the overviews soon. Ric Turley --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
> I didn''t say that people who don''t get it are stubborn. I am weary of people who *don''t* want to get it.But let''s be frank here, how many people are like that? Some people simply don''t make the connection between some things; trust me, I worked as a sysadmin/help desk person for a computer science department. Some people can write amazing thesis projects that blow my mind, but can''t connect that information with real-to-life situations. I think it''s the same with the documentation. Sure, show me a recipe book application, but what can those concepts do for me?> I didn''t say "Let''s keep the stupids out". I am weary of programmers who know how-to copy/paste code from tutorials but don''t take > the time to understand how it works.I fail to see how beginner documentation inhibits that?> This is a blank statement. I am a person, and I am included in the above "people". The attitude and belief that people learn or > try-to-learn a language/framework that they are going to use (or say they know how-to use) is not one that makes me hate Perl (or > any language community).No. The attitude of "RTFM!" or "If you don''t get it you''re just stupid" is what makes people (e.g., me) hate much of the community around Perl and Lisp and other "elitist" (generalization, I know) languages. People saying that we don''t need documentation to keep people out who need it are exhibitng that same attitude. --Jeremy On 11/6/06, zdennis <zdennis-aRAREQmnvsAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Jeremy McAnally wrote: > > > It''s stupid and arrogant to > > say, "Well if they don''t get it, they''re just stubborn." > > I didn''t say that people who don''t get it are stubborn. I am weary of people who *don''t* want to get it. > > > >> In a way I like the lack of beginner level documentation. I know it limits the growth of Ruby and/or Rails, but you at least get > >> people who you know actually understand the langauge/technology and not those who just know how-to copy/paste. > > > > That''s just selfish and, really, childish. "Let''s keep the stupids > > out!" Sheesh. > > I didn''t say "Let''s keep the stupids out". I am weary of programmers who know how-to copy/paste code from tutorials but don''t take > the time to understand how it works. > > > > Again I say, this is the attitude that makes people hate Perl. > > This is a blank statement. I am a person, and I am included in the above "people". The attitude and belief that people learn or > try-to-learn a language/framework that they are going to use (or say they know how-to use) is not one that makes me hate Perl (or > any language community). > > Rails is young compared to other languages and frameworks, documentation will come over time. Asking for them is not a bad thing, > but sometimes how people ask (or demand) for things can really rub the community the wrong way. > > As other people have pointed out this thread, there are lots of books coming from lots of publishers. And just because it isn''t > free doesn''t mean it should be overlooked. At some point you''ll have to weigh in the opportunity cost for buying a book and not > buying a book, save $5 a week, and in a month you''ll be able to buy the PDF. > > If there is a local RUG in your area, perhaps they will give or share a book with you. I collected pop cans to buy my first > nintendo, it can be done. Where there is a will, there is a way, no one said it would be free or easy. > > Zach > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFFT4MAMyx0fW1d8G0RAomPAJ4iUcgHxscVA9RfIVIM5NU35LMNJwCff+L/ > 7rl+V+z1pQN8TJnznrOCpbE> =CvOO > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
I understand that, but I also don''t see why that has to be the case. Call me a community or a hippie, but if there is the possibility of this information being available to everyone, then why avoid it? Maybe it''s not the people trying to learn that are lazy or stubborn but we the community who are refusing to offer this to everyone.> The good news is that if you''re willing to risk the $20-40 of capital > and buy the wonderful documentation available, then you should be able > to gain a subtantial improvement in your monthly income that will more > than offset the price of the docs.Of course, but the money is just one issue...time is another story. ;) --Jeremy On 11/6/06, Tom Mornini <tmornini-W/9V78bTXriB+jHODAdFcQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > On Nov 6, 2006, at 9:52 AM, Jeremy McAnally wrote: > > >> You say you a poor college student, I am sure you''ve made worse > >> decisions with your loan money then spending $20 for the PDF or > >> $40 for the book. > > > > Heh, yeah. I''m sure _single_ college students probably do, but being > > married and having to actually pay bills with a monthly income that > > can be described as dismal (i.e., like half the poverty level), it''s > > very difficult for me to release that much money for something like a > > book about a web development framework. > > I want to make it completely clear that what I''m about to say is not > meant to be condescending at all, merely a statement of fact and my > observations. > > If you live in the United States, or anywhere else in the world that > practices some form of capitalism, you need to understand that lack > of capital is going to bring substantial disadvantages to those with > capital. After all, it''s literally the name of the game. > > The good news is that if you''re willing to risk the $20-40 of capital > and buy the wonderful documentation available, then you should be able > to gain a subtantial improvement in your monthly income that will more > than offset the price of the docs. > > Hang in there. Starving student is a difficult role to play. Rails > should be able to improve your lot substantially. > > -- > -- Tom Mornini, CTO > -- Engine Yard, Ruby on Rails Hosting > -- Reliability, Ease of Use, Scalability > -- (866) 518-YARD (9273) > > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 10:30:55AM -0500, Jeremy McAnally wrote: } You are severely disturbed if you think that Google and the (current) } API docs are all you need to learn Rails. I don''t think API docs are a } good place to point newbies; I think RDocs are great for people who } "get it" but need a little nudging. We call those people who "get it" programmers. Google will find you the first edition of AWDWR which is free for download. That will teach you the basic concepts behind of Rails (MVC, convention over configuration, app/* directories, ActiveRecord, etc.). The rest is just the API, which is reasonably well documented online. Failing that, there is the source itself. If you understand Ruby well enough to use Rails effectively, you understand it well enough to read, comprehend, and even introspect the Rails source code. Of course, many people are coming to Rails without strong Ruby knowledge; that''s fine, and they are encouraged to buy books and read the mailing list archives and learn both Ruby and Rails. } I agree with the OP. Rails'' docs suck for over half of the people who } are going to come to Rails. This is why we have a lot people asking } questions on the mailing list that could/should be answered by quality } documentation. I''m working on trying to fix this documentation } conundrum that with my books, but I''m only one person and the } featureset is so fluid that it''s hard (at this point, impossible) to } keep up. } } I think it''s kind of ridiculous to ask someone to pay $40 for book to } be able to use your framework because your documentation is terrible. } I really hope that the documentation drive takes off and produces } something useful. Translation: Despite having provided this excellent web application framework into which you have invested many hours of work at no charge, you suck because I have to pay money for documentation of a quality similar to that of the framework itself. I am unwilling to dedicate any time, effort, or money to learning to use this excellent product; it is your responsibility to spoonfeed it to me at no charge. This translation is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but I hope it points out the absurdity of complaining about the cost of documentation for free (and Free) software. } I apologize for the rant. Accepted. Incidentally, you should check your local public library (and school library, since I believe you mentioned being a student) to see if they have AWDWR. If they do, you have access to the book at no cost. If not, most librarians (both public and academic) are delighted to get feedback from patrons on what books they''d like to see. Generally, librarians make guesses on what to purchase based on their own preferences or what they''ve heard from their friends, but can order and have a book on the shelves within a month if there is a request from a patron (and the book isn''t hideously expensive). Make friends with your librarians; they are there to help you and the good ones are eager to do so. } --Jeremy --Greg --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
> Incidentally, you should check your local public library (and school > library, since I believe you mentioned being a student) to see if they have > AWDWR. If they do, you have access to the book at no cost. If not, most > librarians (both public and academic) are delighted to get feedback from > patrons on what books they''d like to see. Generally, librarians make > guesses on what to purchase based on their own preferences or what they''ve > heard from their friends, but can order and have a book on the shelves > within a month if there is a request from a patron (and the book isn''t > hideously expensive). Make friends with your librarians; they are there to > help you and the good ones are eager to do so.A lot of libraries can do inter-library transfers as well, which opens it up to just about every library in the country. My sister in law in Hershey, PA regularly gets books from the new york library through her local library... Someone''s gotta have it :) --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
> We call those people who "get it" programmers.Do we? There are a lot of aspects of many programming languages that I don''t understand yet. LISP, for example, blows my mind. It''s not that I don''t think I couldn''t get it, I just haven''t found something that explains the concepts in terms low enough that a lowly former-C#-programmer-turned-Ruby can understand. Same problem here. I''ve talked to a number of people who just can''t put the pieces together from the free resources available. It''s nothing that''s a tragedy, it''s just a fact.> Google will find you the > first edition of AWDWR which is free for download. That will teach you the > basic concepts behind of Rails (MVC, convention over configuration, app/* > directories, ActiveRecord, etc.). The rest is just the API, which is > reasonably well documented online.Are you sure? I haven''t been able to find that legally.> Failing that, there is the source itself. If you understand Ruby well > enough to use Rails effectively, you understand it well enough to read, > comprehend, and even introspect the Rails source code. Of course, many > people are coming to Rails without strong Ruby knowledge; that''s fine, and > they are encouraged to buy books and read the mailing list archives and > learn both Ruby and Rails.Right, but I''m sure a lot of people aren''t community oriented. They can learn Ruby from the first edition Pickaxe (I did), but asking them to join mailing lists and forums because the docs aren''t very good isn''t a good thing (in my opinion). Perhaps I''m a shade more antisocial than most, though.> Translation: Despite having provided this excellent web application > framework into which you have invested many hours of work at no charge, you > suck because I have to pay money for documentation of a quality similar to > that of the framework itself. I am unwilling to dedicate any time, effort, > or money to learning to use this excellent product; it is your > responsibility to spoonfeed it to me at no charge.Is "spoonfeeding" so much to ask for from _someone_? PHP manages to do it. Java manages to do it. Python does it. Heck, Django is doing it. We can''t? I''m not criticizing the core team; I''m just throwing out the fact that the docs aren''t very conducive to learning with. My point: when people like you and others who have posted here just say, "well if they don''t get it from what''s available TOO BAD," just save the keystrokes and help write some documentation so the next time someone asks a question like that they will either already know the answer or you can refer the to the documentation specifically. --Jeremy On 11/6/06, Gregory Seidman <gsslist+ror-dNXPQ6k9rNiG6BJUYyje5axOck334EZe@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > On Mon, Nov 06, 2006 at 10:30:55AM -0500, Jeremy McAnally wrote: > } You are severely disturbed if you think that Google and the (current) > } API docs are all you need to learn Rails. I don''t think API docs are a > } good place to point newbies; I think RDocs are great for people who > } "get it" but need a little nudging. > > We call those people who "get it" programmers. Google will find you the > first edition of AWDWR which is free for download. That will teach you the > basic concepts behind of Rails (MVC, convention over configuration, app/* > directories, ActiveRecord, etc.). The rest is just the API, which is > reasonably well documented online. > > Failing that, there is the source itself. If you understand Ruby well > enough to use Rails effectively, you understand it well enough to read, > comprehend, and even introspect the Rails source code. Of course, many > people are coming to Rails without strong Ruby knowledge; that''s fine, and > they are encouraged to buy books and read the mailing list archives and > learn both Ruby and Rails. > > } I agree with the OP. Rails'' docs suck for over half of the people who > } are going to come to Rails. This is why we have a lot people asking > } questions on the mailing list that could/should be answered by quality > } documentation. I''m working on trying to fix this documentation > } conundrum that with my books, but I''m only one person and the > } featureset is so fluid that it''s hard (at this point, impossible) to > } keep up. > } > } I think it''s kind of ridiculous to ask someone to pay $40 for book to > } be able to use your framework because your documentation is terrible. > } I really hope that the documentation drive takes off and produces > } something useful. > > Translation: Despite having provided this excellent web application > framework into which you have invested many hours of work at no charge, you > suck because I have to pay money for documentation of a quality similar to > that of the framework itself. I am unwilling to dedicate any time, effort, > or money to learning to use this excellent product; it is your > responsibility to spoonfeed it to me at no charge. > > This translation is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but I hope it points out the > absurdity of complaining about the cost of documentation for free (and > Free) software. > > } I apologize for the rant. > > Accepted. > > Incidentally, you should check your local public library (and school > library, since I believe you mentioned being a student) to see if they have > AWDWR. If they do, you have access to the book at no cost. If not, most > librarians (both public and academic) are delighted to get feedback from > patrons on what books they''d like to see. Generally, librarians make > guesses on what to purchase based on their own preferences or what they''ve > heard from their friends, but can order and have a book on the shelves > within a month if there is a request from a patron (and the book isn''t > hideously expensive). Make friends with your librarians; they are there to > help you and the good ones are eager to do so. > > } --Jeremy > --Greg > > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
None of ours do actually; I checked when I first became interested in Rails and just checked again. I put in a "request" a while back (a lot of good those do), but I haven''t seen anything of it yet. They have 5-6 python books, so I''m hopeful! --Jeremy On 11/6/06, Philip Hallstrom <rails-SUcgGwS4C16SUMMaM/qcSw@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > > Incidentally, you should check your local public library (and school > > library, since I believe you mentioned being a student) to see if they have > > AWDWR. If they do, you have access to the book at no cost. If not, most > > librarians (both public and academic) are delighted to get feedback from > > patrons on what books they''d like to see. Generally, librarians make > > guesses on what to purchase based on their own preferences or what they''ve > > heard from their friends, but can order and have a book on the shelves > > within a month if there is a request from a patron (and the book isn''t > > hideously expensive). Make friends with your librarians; they are there to > > help you and the good ones are eager to do so. > > A lot of libraries can do inter-library transfers as well, which opens it > up to just about every library in the country. My sister in law in > Hershey, PA regularly gets books from the new york library through her > local library... > > Someone''s gotta have it :) > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
The number of replies and level of invective here I think does equate to "where there''s smoke, there''s fire". I bought the books and read this list for quite a while, worked through the few tutorials out there and just played around; BUT, I only did that on the 4th or 5th go around after the buzz around the framework was almost deafening. I ignored it and went back to PHP the first 3 or 4 times because I couldn''t find the good 50,000 ft view/introduction to review. I don''t begrudge anyone for making a buck, and selling the documentation (in the form of AWDWR) I don''t find unseemly but it does/will slow adoption and critical mass. As others have said, I too believe that good ''free'' documentation will eventually emerge, it just takes time and someone that wants to Shepherd it. Perhaps it''s not a direct comparison, but consider how easy the PHP docs are to use ... want to know about something ... type http://php.net/somethingand up comes syntax, description and user annotated examples; an RDOC API dump is nowhere near as nice. We''ll get there someday, till then you have to have faith it''s worth learning and buy the book(s). On 11/6/06, Bob <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > > ... and try to write some documentation > It is completely unusefull to develop, develop, develop without > documentation, tutorials etc... > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Andreas Schneider wrote:> The Installation => on OS X! > it took me 5 tries and over 3 days to get it running with mysql - no > joke!I take it you didn''t use Locomotive? Use Locomotive. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
I have read this and would recommend it to anyone trying to understand RJS. Regards, John On 11/6/06, Philip Hallstrom <rails-SUcgGwS4C16SUMMaM/qcSw@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > > > There is indeed *very* poor documentation regarding rails. I was looking > > about rjs for instance, and believe me, it was very difficult for me to > > find some usefull tutorials... > > > > This is a problem with almost all open source software. > > Everyone like to code, but who likes to write doc? > > http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/rjsrails/ > > $10. I haven''t read it though, but seems to be what you want. > > > > > > > Frederick Cheung wrote: > >> There is good stuff out there. Maybe not obvious to find though, for > >> example getting rails up and running on OS X is dead easy with this > step > >> by step thingy: > > > > -- > > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > > > > > > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 1. Good documentation is great. I am not advocating there we don''t write documentation as a community. I am advocating that people suggesting that rails development stop so the rails-core folks can write documentation are requesting something ridiculous. 2. I never said people are stupid. I said people are stubborn, and that people who don''t want to learn what they are using, bother me. 3. I never said RTFM. The following things are bothersome: 1. Programmers who blame not getting over a obstacle or a concept on everyone else. The mentality of "it''s because the community didn''t have good enough documentation for me" doesn''t fly. How many ruby / rails programmers are there they had less documentation then that which is already out there now, but somehow managed to learn it. (do note, this is not stating that there shouldn''t be documentation or more documentation) 2. Programmers who think that somehow they are entitled to *everything* for free. 3. Helping people who want to be helped is awesome. Spoon feeding people who are too lazy to spend a few minutes trying to figure something out is annoying. 4. Programmers who don''t want to excel in their craft, and lack the motivation to do anything about it. 5. Programmers who think every concept should click right away, and complain if it doesn''t. Some concepts you understand through experience. If you lack experience then don''t expect to get everything. It is not my job or anyone else''s job to make you get it. The community will help you along the way, but don''t blame the community on your ability or unwillingness to take the time to understand things. If there is a concept you don''t get post it to the ML, or to ruby-forum. You are responsible for your own success, and so are those that you know who won''t try rails. If they dont'' take a few minutes to check it out, it''s their own fault, not mine and not the communities. Zach Jeremy McAnally wrote:>> I didn''t say that people who don''t get it are stubborn. I am weary of people who *don''t* want to get it. > > But let''s be frank here, how many people are like that? Some people > simply don''t make the connection between some things; trust me, I > worked as a sysadmin/help desk person for a computer science > department. Some people can write amazing thesis projects that blow > my mind, but can''t connect that information with real-to-life > situations. I think it''s the same with the documentation. Sure, show > me a recipe book application, but what can those concepts do for me? > >> I didn''t say "Let''s keep the stupids out". I am weary of programmers who know how-to copy/paste code from tutorials but don''t take >> the time to understand how it works. > > I fail to see how beginner documentation inhibits that? > >> This is a blank statement. I am a person, and I am included in the above "people". The attitude and belief that people learn or >> try-to-learn a language/framework that they are going to use (or say they know how-to use) is not one that makes me hate Perl (or >> any language community). > > No. The attitude of "RTFM!" or "If you don''t get it you''re just > stupid" is what makes people (e.g., me) hate much of the community > around Perl and Lisp and other "elitist" (generalization, I know) > languages. People saying that we don''t need documentation to keep > people out who need it are exhibitng that same attitude. > > --Jeremy > > On 11/6/06, zdennis <zdennis-aRAREQmnvsAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote: > Jeremy McAnally wrote: > >>>> It''s stupid and arrogant to >>>> say, "Well if they don''t get it, they''re just stubborn." > I didn''t say that people who don''t get it are stubborn. I am weary of people who *don''t* want to get it. > > >>>>> In a way I like the lack of beginner level documentation. I know it limits the growth of Ruby and/or Rails, but you at least get >>>>> people who you know actually understand the langauge/technology and not those who just know how-to copy/paste. >>>> That''s just selfish and, really, childish. "Let''s keep the stupids >>>> out!" Sheesh. > I didn''t say "Let''s keep the stupids out". I am weary of programmers who know how-to copy/paste code from tutorials but don''t take > the time to understand how it works. > > >>>> Again I say, this is the attitude that makes people hate Perl. > This is a blank statement. I am a person, and I am included in the above "people". The attitude and belief that people learn or > try-to-learn a language/framework that they are going to use (or say they know how-to use) is not one that makes me hate Perl (or > any language community). > > Rails is young compared to other languages and frameworks, documentation will come over time. Asking for them is not a bad thing, > but sometimes how people ask (or demand) for things can really rub the community the wrong way. > > As other people have pointed out this thread, there are lots of books coming from lots of publishers. And just because it isn''t > free doesn''t mean it should be overlooked. At some point you''ll have to weigh in the opportunity cost for buying a book and not > buying a book, save $5 a week, and in a month you''ll be able to buy the PDF. > > If there is a local RUG in your area, perhaps they will give or share a book with you. I collected pop cans to buy my first > nintendo, it can be done. Where there is a will, there is a way, no one said it would be free or easy. > > Zach >>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFT5p/Myx0fW1d8G0RAopdAJ9zBkqPJJinQ23YJ3klNmdGkhkkLgCeNQ6W Dmtk+6NRa2iRQML830fmXcU=u07O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jeremy McAnally wrote:> > My point: when people like you and others who have posted here just > say, "well if they don''t get it from what''s available TOO BAD," just > save the keystrokes and help write some documentation so the next time > someone asks a question like that they will either already know the > answer or you can refer the to the documentation specifically. >If you don''t get something and someone explains it to you and you get it, you could also write some documentation for the next person. That would show your appreciation for the person who took the time out to help you *get it*. Zach -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFT5yeMyx0fW1d8G0RAnq2AJ9MrcrShk/2aDJLNAT8RmatK+DOMwCfT1nO vN11bOutxkwrX0lMWR2NtP8=/sKu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
> If you don''t get something and someone explains it to you and you get it, you could also write some documentation for the next > person. That would show your appreciation for the person who took the time out to help you *get it*.Precisely. :) This all seems quite silly; all I''m asking is why _not_ have good, free, introductory docs? If someone is willing to do it (which I would hope they are since we have about $15K sitting in a fund somewhere for it), then why not do it? The reasons seem to be: people shouldn''t have to be spoonfed, it''s not my job, the core team is busy enough. These are all remedied (hopefully) by the documentation project. --Jeremy On 11/6/06, zdennis <zdennis-aRAREQmnvsAAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Jeremy McAnally wrote: > > > > > My point: when people like you and others who have posted here just > > say, "well if they don''t get it from what''s available TOO BAD," just > > save the keystrokes and help write some documentation so the next time > > someone asks a question like that they will either already know the > > answer or you can refer the to the documentation specifically. > > > > If you don''t get something and someone explains it to you and you get it, you could also write some documentation for the next > person. That would show your appreciation for the person who took the time out to help you *get it*. > > Zach > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFFT5yeMyx0fW1d8G0RAnq2AJ9MrcrShk/2aDJLNAT8RmatK+DOMwCfT1nO > vN11bOutxkwrX0lMWR2NtP8> =/sKu > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
aminox-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
2006-Nov-06 20:53 UTC
Re: Stop developing Rails !!!
I''m just curious...has ever an announcement been made to the end that Rails should be only learned and used by the few, the proud, the illuminati? Sorry, man, but in my perception the end users will ultimately be the judges of the success of the framework. Those of us who are coming from PHP, Java, or even Py need some guide to getting around and used to Ruby/Rails. I don''t consider myself lazy or a cheapskate...however, there are times when I DO NEED info ASAP...i.e...info I can find by googling (sic). It does not have to do with my logic, arithmetic or RDBMS know-how..it has to do wih the way that Rails handles some things or events. With that arrogant and pedantic attitude of, "if you can''t find the answer, tough luck, good ridance," will only alienate people who might have a thing or two to contribute. The old proverb comes to mind..."Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and feed him until 2050 or so." By denying the online lit needs work you''re implying that you don''t want to teach people how to fish, instead you prefer answer the same question here over and over and over and over. I''ve yet to hear anyone complaining about too much documentation. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 aminox-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote:> I''m just curious...has ever an announcement been made to the end that > Rails should be only learned and used by the few, the proud, the > illuminati?No one said that, and I never implied that. Reread my posts please, I never indicated either of these things.> > With that arrogant and pedantic attitude of, "if you can''t find the > answer, tough luck, good ridance," will only alienate people who might > have a thing or two to contribute.I have not seen anyone say or imply this either.> By denying the online lit needs work > you''re implying that you don''t want to teach people how to fish,I am not denying better documentation would be useful, and I have not seen anyone say that. The closest thing I''ve said in relationship to this: "In a way I like the lack of beginner level documentation. I know it limits the growth of Ruby and/or Rails, but you at least get people who you know actually understand the langauge/technology and not those who just know how-to copy/paste." If you like to code with people who don''t understand something and don''t take the time to learn it (they just copy/paste it without putting much or any effort to learning how it works) then you are certainly in a different mindset of programming as a craft then myself.> instead you prefer answer the same question here over and over and over > and over.Yes, people who don''t take the time to learn how something works are not people I would spend alot of time trying to move into the ruby / rails community. People who want to take the time and learn how it works but need guidance along the way, those are the people I will fend for. Please do not confuse the belief that programmers should put time, energy and effort into learning their craft, with the mentality of a l33t-ist. They are completely different.> > I''ve yet to hear anyone complaining about too much documentation.Java has way too many books at Barnes and Nobles. So does .NET. It takes up too much space for good books on other languages. Thank goodness for Powell''s Technical Books! Zach -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFT6S/Myx0fW1d8G0RAiccAJ94Uc2LV2gLuJmuVF6l25+bid7d2ACfT87M hgo0HxTtRxOwbFcNsXNVE7c=ocom -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
check this one out.. http://start.gotapi.com/ -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
George wrote:> There is indeed *very* poor documentation regarding rails.I find a lot of these statements a little hard to swallow. No, Rails documentation is not at the level ASP or PHP documentation is, and it is certainly not all in one place (I will admit the wiki on RoR.com really needs to be cleaned, condensed and updated). But for someone who came from an extremely modest PHP background, I felt there was plenty of information available, especially for the newbie. Getting comfortable with the API reference is a must, as is getting a book (AWDWR is indispensible, imo). Beyond that, it takes some digging with google, but there is a tremendous amount of articles and blogs out there covering most major Rails topics. Not to mention this forum is just about as valuable as anything out there. The Rails community is extremely welcoming to new members. So yea, it takes some effort and some patience, but if you want to start making Rails apps, a web browser and google are your best friend. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
marston-8Qo2DTIsO68RmelmmXo44Q@public.gmane.org
2006-Nov-06 22:40 UTC
Re: Stop developing Rails !!!
Oh how I would *LOVE* a docs system for Rails (or Ruby for that matter) similar to php.net. Hank Marquardt wrote:> Perhaps it''s not a direct comparison, but consider how easy the PHP docs are > to use ... want to know about something ... type > http://php.net/somethingand up comes syntax, description and user > annotated examples; an RDOC API > dump is nowhere near as nice.--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On 11/6/06, marston-8Qo2DTIsO68RmelmmXo44Q@public.gmane.org <marston-8Qo2DTIsO68RmelmmXo44Q@public.gmane.org> wrote:> Oh how I would *LOVE* a docs system for Rails (or Ruby for that matter) > similar to php.net.I suspect the Ruby and Rubyonrails docs folks have never used the PHP manual much.. so they just shrug off this sort of remark as a non-important comparison. I understand their point of view and why they may have it, but then they aren''t the ones spoiled to using the best manual in the world either. I''m sure things will get better over time. Meanwhile you can always buy some books like I did. *shrug* -- Greg Donald http://destiney.com/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Hopefully we can expect an avalanche of documentation patches from those complaining here. I agree the docs are kind of sparse and lacking, but as you figure things out, SUBMIT DOC PATCHES!!! Joe -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
>>> Cayce BalaraOf course searching on google "rails rjs" will give me something about rjs in rails...I was telling that I had some problems with rjs and I just couldn''t find any help... this ''fast and easy blah blah web framework'' make me loose some time.. and not because it is something wrong with the code, but because there is no documentation, examples; don''t tell me to search on google and find a tutorial, I had a specific problem and doc was missing... Believe me I found on the famous ror.com wiki, v**g_r_a ads or empty pages, links to another empty pages, toturials for obsolete ror1.0 etc If you want rails become more and more popular, it *really* must be easy to use, using empty words (developing without pain etc) is just not enough. If you have a problem, you have to be able to find the solution. I couldn''t. Maybe I wasn''t good enough. Maybe I am good enough just for php or .net Cayce Balara wrote:> George wrote: >> There is indeed *very* poor documentation regarding rails. I was looking >> about rjs for instance, and believe me, it was very difficult for me to >> find some usefull tutorials... >> >> This is a problem with almost all open source software. >> Everyone like to code, but who likes to write doc? >> >> > > I find this hard to believe - the first site listed in google search of > "rails rjs" has been Cody Fauser''s site for at least a couple of months > - you will find no better reference than his PDF booklet at O''Reilly > (linked from his site). > > <soapbox>-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
A couple of things: - If you see Wiki spam, please help us all by backing out until the real page reappears. - If you ask a loosely formed question of Google, you can expect to be awash with random hits. Let''s say the problem you were trying to solve was "hmmmm, I want to replace something on the page and I forget the exact function name." Typing "rails rjs replace" provides a number of great hits right up top. Just narrowing the search makes a world of difference. Give it a try. On Nov 6, 2006, at 3:14 PM, George wrote:> >>>> Cayce Balara > > Of course searching on google "rails rjs" will give me something about > rjs in rails...I was telling that I had some problems with rjs and I > just couldn''t find any help... this ''fast and easy blah blah web > framework'' make me loose some time.. and not because it is something > wrong with the code, but because there is no documentation, examples; > don''t tell me to search on google and find a tutorial, I had a > specific > problem and doc was missing... > Believe me I found on the famous ror.com wiki, v**g_r_a ads or empty > pages, links to another empty pages, toturials for obsolete ror1.0 etc > If you want rails become more and more popular, it *really* must be > easy > to use, using empty words (developing without pain etc) is just not > enough. If you have a problem, you have to be able to find the > solution. > I couldn''t. Maybe I wasn''t good enough. Maybe I am good enough just > for > php or .net > > > Cayce Balara wrote: >> George wrote: >>> There is indeed *very* poor documentation regarding rails. I was >>> looking >>> about rjs for instance, and believe me, it was very difficult for >>> me to >>> find some usefull tutorials... >>> >>> This is a problem with almost all open source software. >>> Everyone like to code, but who likes to write doc? >>> >>> >> >> I find this hard to believe - the first site listed in google >> search of >> "rails rjs" has been Cody Fauser''s site for at least a couple of >> months >> - you will find no better reference than his PDF booklet at O''Reilly >> (linked from his site). >> >> <soapbox> > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
http://www.railmanual.org/ and http://www.rubymanual.org/ are open and ready for your use. I''m not sure many people use them though... --Jeremy On 11/6/06, Greg Donald <gdonald-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > On 11/6/06, marston-8Qo2DTIsO68RmelmmXo44Q@public.gmane.org <marston-8Qo2DTIsO68RmelmmXo44Q@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > Oh how I would *LOVE* a docs system for Rails (or Ruby for that matter) > > similar to php.net. > > I suspect the Ruby and Rubyonrails docs folks have never used the PHP > manual much.. so they just shrug off this sort of remark as a > non-important comparison. I understand their point of view and why > they may have it, but then they aren''t the ones spoiled to using the > best manual in the world either. > > I''m sure things will get better over time. Meanwhile you can always > buy some books like I did. *shrug* > > > -- > Greg Donald > http://destiney.com/ > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
What gets me is that if you want to do something clever, quite often the documentation trail just peters out. Take generators. Code generation is incredibly useful, but I''ve been searching for ages trying to find out how the deeper parts of the system work. The only way I found to do it was to take apart an existing generator, but I got lost in a tangle of Rails features with no idea of the philosophy behind them. (obviously, most other generator writers had left well enough alone...) Worse, the further I got, the less documentation there was. It came down to ''Look at the code'' or even ''This class exists, but I won''t tell you a single thing about it.'' I''m getting there, but it''s a struggle. It shouldn''t be a struggle. Code generation should be a rapid task to make a slow task faster. I''m spending longer writing generator code that I''d spend doing it by hand. Seriously, if Rails is to be taken seriously, every feature should be documented - if only briefly - by the people writing it, as they write it. It''s called ''good programming.'' Those little nuggets can really go a long way towards giving a programmer an idea of what''s going through the mind of the framework developer - and thus the correct way to use the features. It''s interesting how the PHP docs have lots of comments but the Rails docs don''t. I think there are a few reasons. 1: Leaving comments is less hair-raising than editing a wiki, so more people will. 2: Allowing posting of links leaves the wiki open to spam. 3: Having docs there in the first place encourages commentary - especially if incomplete or subtly wrong. 4: Having a logical separation between instructions and comments leaves it open to ''Hey, look what cool stuff I did with this!'' style posts. 5: RDoc is a great idea on paper, but appears to encourage laziness and doesn''t seem to inspire enthusiasm or creativity. In all seriousness, if I were to set up a wiki doc site with comments as per PHP (not using the RDoc format), who would be up for contributing? --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Hi Andreas, the ''blank?'' is explained on page 238 AWDWR 2ed (PDF). Good luck, -Conrad On 11/6/06, Andreas Schneider <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > In some terms I must agree with Bob. > > It is really hard to find the right path. For me that I am coming from > the ASP Classic world it is even harder - because I think in a total > different way. > > A couple of minutes ago I had a problem with my password in the user > account that dont needs to be validated when the user updates the > account data and dont inserts a new password and only needs to be > validated when the user enteres a new password. Ok, I found the solution > here in the forum but it looks really strange to me and I wonder how I > could get onto this solution by myself. > > validates_presence_of :password, :if => :password_required? > validates_confirmation_of :password, :if => :password_required? > > def password_required? > hashed_password.blank? or not password.blank? > end > > I even couldnt find the ".blank?" thing and what it does. Its not avail. > in the API nor in the RUBY docs - or I am too stupid. I can imagine that > it checkes if a string is blank - but than I tried it somewhere else in > the code and it doesnt work. So I am unsure why it is not working. And > the error messages are another great mess. For me they are saying > absolutly nothing. > > I am really interested in coding in rails and leave ASP for ever behind > - because the modell behavior is really great but the way is hard. Also > in the Agile Web development book are "MANY" bugs - which doesnt make it > easier. > > I am sitting here since 2 Weeks and coding my first app with rails but > most of the code is from the forum - and some code I dont even know what > it is doing. > > On the plus side: Its getting better every day. > > Andreas - a total noob here! > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
One thing I think everyone needs to keep in mind is that it''s Rails ONE-POINT-OH (or close to it). PHP is at 5. Anyone remember the docs at php 3? Or how many books there were? Not a whole lot. Also, comparing PHP to Rails is apples to oranges. Try comparing Trax/Cake/Symphony to Rails. Last time (about 6 months ago) I looked at Trax, it didn''t have any documentation.> What gets me is that if you want to do something clever, quite often > the documentation trail just peters out. Take generators. Code > generation is incredibly useful, but I''ve been searching for ages > trying to find out how the deeper parts of the system work.Take PHP extensions... last time I looked (maybe 1.5 years ago) it was very "look at the code for examples"... and seems to still be.> Seriously, if Rails is to be taken seriously, every feature should be > documented - if only briefly - by the people writing it, as they write > it. It''s called ''good programming.''That''s true and I won''t deny it, but remember that it''s 1.0. PHP has been around for what... 8-9 years? Perl even longer. It''s going to take time... And i bet the moment core stops coding and documenting everything folks are gonna be upset that their bugs/feature-enhancements whatever aren''t getting done :) You just can''t win :)> In all seriousness, if I were to set up a wiki doc site with comments > as per PHP (not using the RDoc format), who would be up for > contributing?Seriously... I wouldn''t. Why? It''s yet another site I''d have to check for documents... Until it''s added to the official rails docs, I wouldn''t bother. Back to lurking... -philip --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Hi, I guess that you meant http://www.railsmanual.org In any case, as a new person to rails, I feel that I have enough information to get things done within Ruby and Rails. -Conrad On 11/6/06, Jeremy McAnally <jeremymcanally-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > http://www.railmanual.org/ and http://www.rubymanual.org/ are open and > ready for your use. I''m not sure many people use them though... > > --Jeremy > > On 11/6/06, Greg Donald <gdonald-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > > On 11/6/06, marston-8Qo2DTIsO68RmelmmXo44Q@public.gmane.org <marston-8Qo2DTIsO68RmelmmXo44Q@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > Oh how I would *LOVE* a docs system for Rails (or Ruby for that matter) > > > similar to php.net. > > > > I suspect the Ruby and Rubyonrails docs folks have never used the PHP > > manual much.. so they just shrug off this sort of remark as a > > non-important comparison. I understand their point of view and why > > they may have it, but then they aren''t the ones spoiled to using the > > best manual in the world either. > > > > I''m sure things will get better over time. Meanwhile you can always > > buy some books like I did. *shrug* > > > > > > -- > > Greg Donald > > http://destiney.com/ > > > > > > > > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
> don''t tell me to search on google and find a tutorial, I had a specific > problem and doc was missing...Okay - A) in your post above, you said it was "difficult for me to find some useful tutorials", you didn''t say anything about trying to solve "a specific problem". And B) - what I''m saying is the doc is not missing. The "useful tutorials" are not missing. They are right there on the first site returned from a google search. The "RJS for Rails" booklet, on sale for $10 at O''Reilly and linked from Fauser''s home page, is the documentation AND the tutorials you are/were looking for. It''s comprehensive and I''m sure it would have answered your question(s), and it''s a PDF download that you could have had in your hands in minutes. Thus my "I find that hard to belive" comment. Listen - I''m not trying to start a flame war - I was just responding to the what you said. If you meant something different, it wasn''t clear from what you posted. c. George wrote:>>>> Cayce Balara > > Of course searching on google "rails rjs" will give me something about > rjs in rails...I was telling that I had some problems with rjs and I > just couldn''t find any help... this ''fast and easy blah blah web > framework'' make me loose some time.. and not because it is something > wrong with the code, but because there is no documentation, examples; > don''t tell me to search on google and find a tutorial, I had a specific > problem and doc was missing... > Believe me I found on the famous ror.com wiki, v**g_r_a ads or empty > pages, links to another empty pages, toturials for obsolete ror1.0 etc > If you want rails become more and more popular, it *really* must be easy > to use, using empty words (developing without pain etc) is just not > enough. If you have a problem, you have to be able to find the solution. > I couldn''t. Maybe I wasn''t good enough. Maybe I am good enough just for > php or .net > > > Cayce Balara wrote: >> George wrote: >>> There is indeed *very* poor documentation regarding rails. I was looking >>> about rjs for instance, and believe me, it was very difficult for me to >>> find some usefull tutorials... >>> >>> This is a problem with almost all open source software. >>> Everyone like to code, but who likes to write doc? >>> >>> >> >> I find this hard to believe - the first site listed in google search of >> "rails rjs" has been Cody Fauser''s site for at least a couple of months >> - you will find no better reference than his PDF booklet at O''Reilly >> (linked from his site). >> >> <soapbox>-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
I might be insane, but I find the official PHP documentation and the official Ruby and Rails documentation to be pretty much on par. I really liked the .NET documentation back when I was using it though. I do agree (minus some of the attitude that has been accompanied with this thread) that it would be really nice of Rails had better documentation. I don''t think that it is up to the core Rails developers necessarily to provide it. There are a lot of developers that know Rails more than well enough to write good documentation (I know I would be able to). -carl --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Hi there ! There is really a problem with documentation. In fact, I can not achieve to convert 2 guys tu use Rails at job because of lack of documentation. The already existing doc is nice. The books helps to start. But when you find something like add_instance_variables and can''t find any drop of doc and source references as much unknown calls as possible, it''s quite hard to believe. Coding is just find. Making the doc on the fly, even if it''s not sexy, is great. And when I read "make doc patch", this make me laughing : how can I write documentation for methods I even can''t figure out what it can do ? Giving bricks is good. Explaining how to use it and everybody can build a house ;) Tony PS : the add_instance_variables was reference from a wiki page on the rails website ... writed somewhere in a bunch of code, no explanation why. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
My programming experience is about 1 year of PHP, self-taught using only web resources, and Atari BASIC back when the language was a little cartridge you plugged into the computer. I''m about as close to a blank slate as you can get, here, and I had little trouble picking up Ruby/Rails. When I decided to try Rails (saw the video, like everyone else) I got online and started looking around. The old ''pickaxe'' book is free, taught me quite a bit of Ruby. Then there was the ''Rolling with RoR'' and ''4 days'' tutorials. Both Ruby and Rails API are online, and though they aren''t optimum (all I have to compare them to is php.net, which rocked) the info is there. I started writing simple apps, case-studies that explored different ideas. I played around in console and breakpointer. I read hundreds of blog posts. When I needed more info and I had exhausted the web resources I could find, I joined the IRC channel and this mailing list, both of which are archived and searchable. Asking informed questions on IRC got me polite and helpful responses that led me to more knowledge. Reading through source code of existing apps taught me a lot, and when I saw things that weren''t documented elsewhere a trip to the IRC channel cleared it right up. After 2 months I felt comfortable enough to convert my PHP sites to Rails. This took a couple of weeks, and gave me the confidence to try bigger things. I showed a couple of people what I had been working on, and got some contract work. Only after I had received the up-front money for the contract did I buy the Agile 2 beta PDF and Rails Recipes. So what I want to know is this: given my first-hand experience of the dismal state of Rails documentation, how is it that I am successfully doing contract work while other people in this thread are ranting about how hard it is to learn Rails? There are some bitter people venting in this thread, and I''m finding it hard to see their side of the situation. It looks to me like some people want their new and different language to be as well presented as the old and dusty languages they know, and are (irrationally) upset that this isn''t the case. If you''re that unhappy, you basically have 3 options: change the system ("be the change you want to see in the world"), or change yourself (the observer is part of the equation, too), or leave. - foobario On 11/6/06, Bob <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > ... and try to write some documentation > It is completely unusefull to develop, develop, develop without > documentation, tutorials etc... > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Anyone find it funny that "Bob" hasn''t responded again after 70 posts? The only problem with Rails documentation I''ve had is when I''ve been told of some obscure or advanced feature but can''t remember exactly what it was, but that''s to be expected with most libraries. Jason On 11/7/06, foobario <mkrails-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > > My programming experience is about 1 year of PHP, self-taught using > only web resources, and Atari BASIC back when the language was a > little cartridge you plugged into the computer. I''m about as close to > a blank slate as you can get, here, and I had little trouble picking > up Ruby/Rails. > > When I decided to try Rails (saw the video, like everyone else) I got > online and started looking around. The old ''pickaxe'' book is free, > taught me quite a bit of Ruby. Then there was the ''Rolling with RoR'' > and ''4 days'' tutorials. Both Ruby and Rails API are online, and > though they aren''t optimum (all I have to compare them to is php.net, > which rocked) the info is there. I started writing simple apps, > case-studies that explored different ideas. I played around in > console and breakpointer. I read hundreds of blog posts. > > When I needed more info and I had exhausted the web resources I could > find, I joined the IRC channel and this mailing list, both of which > are archived and searchable. Asking informed questions on IRC got me > polite and helpful responses that led me to more knowledge. Reading > through source code of existing apps taught me a lot, and when I saw > things that weren''t documented elsewhere a trip to the IRC channel > cleared it right up. > > After 2 months I felt comfortable enough to convert my PHP sites to > Rails. This took a couple of weeks, and gave me the confidence to try > bigger things. I showed a couple of people what I had been working > on, and got some contract work. Only after I had received the > up-front money for the contract did I buy the Agile 2 beta PDF and > Rails Recipes. > > So what I want to know is this: given my first-hand experience of the > dismal state of Rails documentation, how is it that I am successfully > doing contract work while other people in this thread are ranting > about how hard it is to learn Rails? There are some bitter people > venting in this thread, and I''m finding it hard to see their side of > the situation. It looks to me like some people want their new and > different language to be as well presented as the old and dusty > languages they know, and are (irrationally) upset that this isn''t the > case. > > If you''re that unhappy, you basically have 3 options: > > change the system ("be the change you want to see in the world"), or > change yourself (the observer is part of the equation, too), or > leave. > > - foobario > > > > > > On 11/6/06, Bob <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > > ... and try to write some documentation > > It is completely unusefull to develop, develop, develop without > > documentation, tutorials etc... > > > > -- > > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > > > > > > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
ok maybe we spend too much time discussing in mailings lists and not enough time actually coding or setting up helpful ressources On 11/7/06, Jason Roelofs <jameskilton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > Anyone find it funny that "Bob" hasn''t responded again after 70 posts? > > The only problem with Rails documentation I''ve had is when I''ve been told > of some obscure or advanced feature but can''t remember exactly what it was, > but that''s to be expected with most libraries. > > Jason > > On 11/7/06, foobario <mkrails-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > > > > My programming experience is about 1 year of PHP, self-taught using > > only web resources, and Atari BASIC back when the language was a > > little cartridge you plugged into the computer. I''m about as close to > > a blank slate as you can get, here, and I had little trouble picking > > up Ruby/Rails. > > > > When I decided to try Rails (saw the video, like everyone else) I got > > online and started looking around. The old ''pickaxe'' book is free, > > taught me quite a bit of Ruby. Then there was the ''Rolling with RoR'' > > and ''4 days'' tutorials. Both Ruby and Rails API are online, and > > though they aren''t optimum (all I have to compare them to is php.net, > > which rocked) the info is there. I started writing simple apps, > > case-studies that explored different ideas. I played around in > > console and breakpointer. I read hundreds of blog posts. > > > > When I needed more info and I had exhausted the web resources I could > > find, I joined the IRC channel and this mailing list, both of which > > are archived and searchable. Asking informed questions on IRC got me > > polite and helpful responses that led me to more knowledge. Reading > > through source code of existing apps taught me a lot, and when I saw > > things that weren''t documented elsewhere a trip to the IRC channel > > cleared it right up. > > > > After 2 months I felt comfortable enough to convert my PHP sites to > > Rails. This took a couple of weeks, and gave me the confidence to try > > bigger things. I showed a couple of people what I had been working > > on, and got some contract work. Only after I had received the > > up-front money for the contract did I buy the Agile 2 beta PDF and > > Rails Recipes. > > > > So what I want to know is this: given my first-hand experience of the > > dismal state of Rails documentation, how is it that I am successfully > > doing contract work while other people in this thread are ranting > > about how hard it is to learn Rails? There are some bitter people > > venting in this thread, and I''m finding it hard to see their side of > > the situation. It looks to me like some people want their new and > > different language to be as well presented as the old and dusty > > languages they know, and are (irrationally) upset that this isn''t the > > case. > > > > If you''re that unhappy, you basically have 3 options: > > > > change the system ("be the change you want to see in the world"), or > > change yourself (the observer is part of the equation, too), or > > leave. > > > > - foobario > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/6/06, Bob <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org > wrote: > > > > > > ... and try to write some documentation > > > It is completely unusefull to develop, develop, develop without > > > documentation, tutorials etc... > > > > > > -- > > > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- Heri R. http://sprinj.com --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
I am still here, Jason Roelofs Because someone before mentioned http://www.railsmanual.org, I opened this page, , and because I am a curios guy, I wanted to know what reverse_each_port() is about, and opening http://www.railsmanual.org/class/TMail%3A%3AMaildir/reverse_each_port/1.1.6 I can see the source of the method. I also find this *very* useful info, the method begins at the line 357, in file mailbox.rb. I think it''s very good that the author didn''t fill the web page with some unneccessary comments about what this function does. I think all of you agree with me: looking at the source code of reverse_each_port() at http://www.railsmanual.org, we all can say that rails is, undoubtedly, an OPEN SOURCE web framework. Jason Roelofs wrote:> Anyone find it funny that "Bob" hasn''t responded again after 70 posts? > > The only problem with Rails documentation I''ve had is when I''ve been > told of > some obscure or advanced feature but can''t remember exactly what it was, > but > that''s to be expected with most libraries. > > Jason-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Bob wrote:> ... and try to write some documentation > It is completely unusefull to develop, develop, develop without > documentation, tutorials etc...This interesting thread has given me a change of heart on this issue. When I first saw the thread I thought "Amen brother!". Then I read some of the replies and started using some of the searchable references that were mentioned and came a way feeling much better about the current state of the docs. One thing I think would be a horrendously useful addition to all of this would be a wiki-like site that has example code for every imaginable little part of a Rails app. Copy, paste and modify is how I''ve been programming for twenty years. Right now it''s hard to find a good source for the first step of that process. My own first attempts form the majority of it, which means I''m scraping the bottom of the barrel most of the time. Finally, I would like to leave you all with a new MasterCard commercial that sums up my current feeling on the basic topic of the thread: Way cool programming language called Ruby $0 Even cooler web application framework $0 Finally not being the odd man out with a Mac priceless jp -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Wednesday 08 November 2006 01:55, Bob wrote:> I think all of you agree with me: looking at the source code of > reverse_each_port() at http://www.railsmanual.org, we all can say > that rails is, undoubtedly, an OPEN SOURCE web framework.Actually, we all new that already. Now, if Rails was a closed source framework, how much would you be willing to pay for it? Michael -- Michael Schuerig mailto:michael-q5aiKMLteq4b1SvskN2V4Q@public.gmane.org http://www.schuerig.de/michael/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
I just tried to be ironic... Michael Schuerig wrote:> On Wednesday 08 November 2006 01:55, Bob wrote: >> I think all of you agree with me: looking at the source code of >> reverse_each_port() at http://www.railsmanual.org, we all can say >> that rails is, undoubtedly, an OPEN SOURCE web framework. > > Actually, we all new that already. Now, if Rails was a closed source > framework, how much would you be willing to pay for it? > > Michael > > -- > Michael Schuerig > mailto:michael-q5aiKMLteq4b1SvskN2V4Q@public.gmane.org > http://www.schuerig.de/michael/-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---