Hi, Recently, I have been working on learning R4R because a prospective client said that they were planning on moving in that direction in the near future. I am talking with him tomorrow about the first project he has for me. I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice on what kind of rate a beginning rails developer can ask for. I don''t think that it''s a huge project. He wants it to be a sort of template web site that they can also use for similar future jobs. Thanks, bimo -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
bimo wrote:> Hi, Recently, I have been working on learning R4R because a > prospective client said that they were planning on moving in that > direction in the near future. I am talking with him tomorrow about the > first project he has for me. I was wondering if anyone could give me > some advice on what kind of rate a beginning rails developer can ask > for. I don''t think that it''s a huge project. He wants it to be a sort > of template web site that they can also use for similar future jobs. > > Thanks, > bimoI am not sure where you are located but in US disccusing prices can be seen as price fixing and can cause a problem if I am not wrong(correct me someone). As a European I charge 50 euro (which is around 60$) an hour as a developer. Gokhan Arli Software developer www.sylow.net -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
> I am not sure where you are located but in US disccusing prices can be > seen as price fixing and can cause a problem if I am not wrong(correct > me someone).Why do people feel the need to keep saying this? No, talking with other people, even competitors, about what a fair market price is, does not constitute price fixing. And when the people in question are a handful of developers with little experience just trying to research the market value for their services, thinking it somehow even comes close to price fixing is crazy. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
You are correct. I''ve posted this before - a good discussion of why pricing discussions in public forums should be avoided is at the HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.html c. Gokhan Arli wrote:> bimo wrote: >> Hi, Recently, I have been working on learning R4R because a >> prospective client said that they were planning on moving in that >> direction in the near future. I am talking with him tomorrow about the >> first project he has for me. I was wondering if anyone could give me >> some advice on what kind of rate a beginning rails developer can ask >> for. I don''t think that it''s a huge project. He wants it to be a sort >> of template web site that they can also use for similar future jobs. >> >> Thanks, >> bimo > > I am not sure where you are located but in US disccusing prices can be > seen as price fixing and can cause a problem if I am not wrong(correct > me someone). > > As a European I charge 50 euro (which is around 60$) an hour as a > developer. > > Gokhan Arli > Software developer > www.sylow.net-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On 10/29/06, Cayce Balara <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > You are correct. I''ve posted this before - a good discussion of why > pricing discussions in public forums should be avoided is at the HTML > Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.htmlI''m no attorney, but that FAQ has parts that are simply not true. *any* discussion of prices by people in the same industry does not constitute price fixing. It takes an agreement on pricing between competitors to constitute price fixing. And that page is the page of a guild, which is an association, which is different from just any mailing list when it comes to restraint of trade issues. Most associations do have policies about discussing pricing. Not because doing so is illegal, but just to avoid letting it ever get that far or having to constantly police it. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
ah, thanks Cayce Balara wrote:> You are correct. I''ve posted this before - a good discussion of why > pricing discussions in public forums should be avoided is at the HTML > Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.html > > c. > >>> >> I am not sure where you are located but in US disccusing prices can be >> seen as price fixing and can cause a problem if I am not wrong(correct >> me someone). >> >> As a European I charge 50 euro (which is around 60$) an hour as a >> developer. >> >> Gokhan Arli >> Software developer >> www.sylow.net-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Not this, not again! Asking what people charge is fine. This is what customers and competitors do. There is no price fixing. Deciding to agree upon a price that you and others should charge is not. That takes away competition. Bill -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
That sounds reasonable... thanks ill wrote:> Not this, not again! > > Asking what people charge is fine. This is what customers and > competitors do. There is no price fixing. > > Deciding to agree upon a price that you and others should charge is not. > That takes away competition. > > Bill-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
> You are correct. I''ve posted this before - a good discussion of why > pricing discussions in public forums should be avoided is at the HTML > Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.htmlLast time it came up the HTML Writers Guid was debunked as urban myth. It even reads like a classic urban myth. There''s no useful legal information there. Back in June Ted Korolchuk posted a link to a superb source on this one - the United States Department of Justice: http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title7/ant00007.htm Given a choice between legal info from the DoJ, and complete nonsense from the HTML Writer''s Guild, I''d say go with the DoJ. But that''s just me. Also take a look at: http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/confbd4.htm "If the industry structure is not conducive to coordination, perhaps because entry is easy or because a firm could cut prices in secret and steal business from rivals, a court must recognize that it would be irrational for the firms to engage in the forbidden process which the courts term an agreement, risking prosecution with no hope of gaining market power." - James Moore --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
This has been posted in several threads, also: http://www.blueflavor.com/ed/tips_tricks/pricing_a_project.php great info. c. Bill wrote:> Not this, not again! > > Asking what people charge is fine. This is what customers and > competitors do. There is no price fixing. > > Deciding to agree upon a price that you and others should charge is not. > That takes away competition. > > Bill-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On 10/29/06, snacktime <snacktime-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > > I am not sure where you are located but in US disccusing prices can be > > seen as price fixing and can cause a problem if I am not wrong(correct > > me someone). > > Why do people feel the need to keep saying this? No, talking with > other people, even competitors, about what a fair market price is, > does not constitute price fixing. And when the people in question are > a handful of developers with little experience just trying to research > the market value for their services, thinking it somehow even comes > close to price fixing is crazy.+1 Plus, you couldn''t fix prices like this if you wanted to. It''s not even possible. DHH could decree from on high an "Official Rails Developer Rate" and it wouldn''t make a damn bit of difference. Ten minutes in an econ class would explain why. -- James --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Discussing this in public is NOT price fixing. This price FAQ is more about why a HTML Writer''s Guild won''t discuss prices. They''re just trying to keep their libability to a minimum. It''s a big difference between what we''re doing here and HTML Guild suggesting prices. That would be price fixing. Better for them to stay away from it altogether. It''s illegal for you to get try and get people to agree upon a price that each member in the group won''t charge more or less. It''s NOT illegal to discuss what you charge other people because in no way does discussing it constitute and agreement as a group. People reading the thread doesn''t neccessarily have to follow the group. The person could choose to undercut other people to get more business. Or charge more because Ruby devlopment is in greater demand than the supply of programmers. It''s still up to individual to decide his/her price. Just as a note a graphic designer friend of mine charges a minimum of $75/hour for any work. My plumber and handy man charged me around $60/hour when they fixed my sink and hung some crown modeling. I kinda think development warrants a higher price than plumbing. Charlie Cayce Balara wrote:> You are correct. I''ve posted this before - a good discussion of why > pricing discussions in public forums should be avoided is at the HTML > Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.html > > c.-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Charlie Hubbard wrote:> Discussing this in public is NOT price fixing.I agree with you here and I''m glad you wrote this. I see now that the link was provided to show why others didn''t want to discuss this, not that it was price fixing. Sorry about that.> This price FAQ is more > about why a HTML Writer''s Guild won''t discuss prices. They''re just > trying to keep their libability to a minimum. It''s a big difference > between what we''re doing here and HTML Guild suggesting prices. That > would be price fixing. Better for them to stay away from it altogether.We can let the Guild do what they want. It''s their choice to run their forum the way they want. There is no such restriction here AFAIK. Also, I would not have done what the Guild has done and wouldn''t recommend it here. If I have the freedom to discuss something, then I will. I do not apply a filter and surrender hard earned rights because others are worried about some risk of liability. There are plenty of things that are more risky and we do them without any trouble. Out in the open is a great way to ensure there is no fixing. Offline, closed doors, and you might run into trouble. Besides, who here can really control prices? There are too many places to go for developers to even try to fix a price. It would be a wasted effort. I''d love to put this boogeyman to rest. If people want to reveal their prices, go ahead. If you choose to be risk averse, don''t read this thread and certainly don''t contribute to it! -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
LOL, nothing wrong with price-fixing.. well.. maybe morally... I doubt the few posters here have any market-power (which would make it wrong) ;) -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Exactly - how can a bunch of RoR people be guilty of "price fixing" when a customer is free to employ PHP, .NET, J2EE, ... people to do exactly the same job? It''s not like we have a monopoly on Web development. Now, if you''re talking about locking in existing RoR customers, for whom it may be prohibitively expensive to rebuild their working RoR apps in e.g. J2EE, you might have an argument. Even then, there''s nothing preventing those customers from finding someone else and having that person learn RoR as part of the assignment - it''s not like us RoR guys hold the only magic keys to the kingdom. In general, I give existing customers a *lower* rate, on the basis that I know there won''t be a problem getting paid, that the working conditions are a known quantity, that they won''t be looking over my shoulder constantly questioning what I''m doing, that there''s that much less of a chance of nasty surprises, etc. Regards Dave M. On 01/11/06, Guest <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > LOL, nothing wrong with price-fixing.. well.. maybe morally... I doubt > the few posters here have any market-power (which would make it wrong) > ;) > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---