Maybe there is an obvious answer and I''m being dumb, but why does activerecord allow me to call it''s private methods?>> i = Item.find(33)=> #<Item:0x2360080 @attributes={ ... output removed>> i.price = ''25''=> "25">> i.update=> 1>> i.create_or_update=> 0>> i.price = ''26''=> "26">> i.create_or_update=> 1 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com