I thought I was on top of them all, but found another one that has me completely stumped. table referral_notes belongs_to: placement table placements has_many: referral_notes def list_rfn @placement = Placement.find(:all) # possibly unnecessary @referral_note = ReferralNote.find(:all, :include => [:placement], :conditions => ["placement_id = ?", params[:placement_id] ]) @referral_note_pages, @referral_notes = paginate( :referral_notes, :include => [:placement], :conditions => ["placement_id = ?", params[:placement_id] ], :per_page => 14) end list view (possible multiple records). The main object is the ''placement_id'' (there''s only 1). If I have a looped structure, I can make this work but it repeats the placement record 1 time for each referral_note... <% for referral_note in @referral_notes %> <%=h (referral_note.placement.client.wholename) %> <%=h (referral_note.note_date) %> <% end %> but if I take the first line out of the loop... <%=h (referral_note.placement.client.wholename) %> <% for referral_note in @referral_notes %> <%=h (referral_note.note_date) %> <% end %> it errors - not having a definition for ''referral_note.'' so I try <%=h (@referral_note.placement.client.wholename) %> and I still get error... NoMethodError in Referral_notes#list_rfn Showing app/views/referral_notes/list_rfn.rhtml where line #16 raised: undefined method `placement'' for #<Array:0xb7a9d904> Extracted source (around line #16): 16: <td><%=h (@referral_note.placement.client.wholename) %></td> as if it lacks knowledge of the relationship for ''placement'' and I have had too many issues working with the ''many'' relationships of referral_notes in the placement controller and have settled on the thinking that relationships are easiest when working in the controller that ''belongs_to'' side of the relationship. how/why does it not understand the relationship placement here? Craig