Rails - Dec 2005 - PROPOSAL: The list needs to fork (desperately).

I''d like to propsoe that the RubyOnRails mailing list forks into three 
lists.

PROBLEM:
* The list is getting swamped with traffic, making it hard to use and 
even harder to follow.
* Many, many messages get lost, with no reply.
* Due to the overwhelming traffic, it''s hard for beginners to get the 
help that they need, since their messages get lost in the shuffle, and 
it''s hard for advanced users to work together, for the same reason.

PROPOSED SOLUTION:
Fork the list into three new lists:
* Rails-Beginners.  For questions and answers on how to use Rails.  No 
"read the docs, fool!" here.
* Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to discuss 
particular topics.  Example topics include  application design advice, 
optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
* Rails-Hackers.  For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails. 
Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the like.

Comments?

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

I hardly think that this list is getting "swamped"

This has been brought up in the past, and it didn''t seem like there
was much support.  How do you decide if you should post to the
beginners or users list?  Is there some kind of qualifying exam? (no,
that''s not serious)

Maybe I don''t have a problem following the threads because I have
gmail reloading in the background every couple minutes and check out
anything new...but this isn''t exactly a high-volume list imo.  I think
nearly everyone who reads the list now would just subscribe to all
three anyway...which obviously isn''t a problem, just seems unnecessary
at this point.

Pat



On 12/10/05, List Recv <listrecv-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> I''d like to propsoe that the RubyOnRails mailing list forks into
three
> lists.
>
> PROBLEM:
> * The list is getting swamped with traffic, making it hard to use and
> even harder to follow.
> * Many, many messages get lost, with no reply.
> * Due to the overwhelming traffic, it''s hard for beginners to get
the
> help that they need, since their messages get lost in the shuffle, and
> it''s hard for advanced users to work together, for the same
reason.
>
> PROPOSED SOLUTION:
> Fork the list into three new lists:
> * Rails-Beginners.  For questions and answers on how to use Rails.  No
> "read the docs, fool!" here.
> * Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to discuss
> particular topics.  Example topics include  application design advice,
> optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
> * Rails-Hackers.  For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails.
> Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the like.
>
> Comments?
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

+1

Although a general announcements list might be a good idea, too.

lstrecv wrote:
> PROPOSED SOLUTION:
> Fork the list into three new lists:
> * Rails-Beginners.  For questions and answers on how to use Rails.  No 
> "read the docs, fool!" here.
> * Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to discuss 
> particular topics.  Example topics include  application design advice, 
> optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
> * Rails-Hackers.  For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails. 
> Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the like.
> 
> Comments?

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Rails-core, was opened up a bit to be that rails hacker list.  So now
you could be down to Rails (normal) and Rails-help.  But who would
read Rails-help?  I think that that list would get posted to without
many replies.

Kyle

On 12/10/05, Pat Maddox <pergesu-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> I hardly think that this list is getting "swamped"
>
> This has been brought up in the past, and it didn''t seem like
there
> was much support.  How do you decide if you should post to the
> beginners or users list?  Is there some kind of qualifying exam? (no,
> that''s not serious)
>
> Maybe I don''t have a problem following the threads because I have
> gmail reloading in the background every couple minutes and check out
> anything new...but this isn''t exactly a high-volume list imo.  I
think
> nearly everyone who reads the list now would just subscribe to all
> three anyway...which obviously isn''t a problem, just seems
unnecessary
> at this point.
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> On 12/10/05, List Recv
<listrecv-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> > I''d like to propsoe that the RubyOnRails mailing list forks
into three
> > lists.
> >
> > PROBLEM:
> > * The list is getting swamped with traffic, making it hard to use and
> > even harder to follow.
> > * Many, many messages get lost, with no reply.
> > * Due to the overwhelming traffic, it''s hard for beginners to
get the
> > help that they need, since their messages get lost in the shuffle, and
> > it''s hard for advanced users to work together, for the same
reason.
> >
> > PROPOSED SOLUTION:
> > Fork the list into three new lists:
> > * Rails-Beginners.  For questions and answers on how to use Rails.  No
> > "read the docs, fool!" here.
> > * Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to
discuss
> > particular topics.  Example topics include  application design advice,
> > optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
> > * Rails-Hackers.  For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails.
> > Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the
like.
> >
> > Comments?
> >
> > --
> > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails mailing list
> > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

kyle wrote:
>But who would read Rails-help?
Exactly the people who (shock!) are interested in helping beginners.

Surprise, surprise, there are people interested in doing this.  And the 
people who aren''t, well, they still won''t even if the messages
are at
the same list, other than posting a "check the docs first" response.

If you look at the newbie questions on the list, most of them go 
unanswered.  The ones that are marked "NOOB" in the subject seem to
fair
better.

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

I probably wouldn''t read a Rails-Help list.  It would get filtered to
its own folder, likely never to be read.  As it exists now, I help
with a few questions a day, just cause the subject line catches me. 
You split the list, and you lose me for that.  I assume I''m not
unique.

Thats really all I''m saying.



On 12/10/05, List Recv <listrecv-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> kyle wrote:
> >But who would read Rails-help?
>
> Exactly the people who (shock!) are interested in helping beginners.
>
> Surprise, surprise, there are people interested in doing this.  And the
> people who aren''t, well, they still won''t even if the
messages are at
> the same list, other than posting a "check the docs first"
response.
>
> If you look at the newbie questions on the list, most of them go
> unanswered.  The ones that are marked "NOOB" in the subject seem
to fair
> better.
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

This is the classic response to a high-traffic group, and it never  
works. You should look at Clay Shirky''s essay "A Group is its own
Worst Enemy", which points how how this pattern''s been repeated
many
many times over the last 20 years:
http://shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html

The basic problem is that 1) no one wants to self-identify as a  
beginner, and who really knows when they transition from beginner to  
"user"? Will you require "experts" to monitor the newbies
list, or
just rely on the goodness of their character?

Also, 2) many "newbies" and "users" will tell you that
they''ve picked
up valuable information by reading questions and answers by the  
"hackers."
> Fork the list into three new lists:
> * Rails-Beginners.  For questions and answers on how to use Rails.  No
> "read the docs, fool!" here.
> * Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to  
> discuss
> particular topics.  Example topics include  application design advice,
> optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
> * Rails-Hackers.  For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails.
> Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the  
> like.

Andrew Otwell wrote:
> This is the classic response to a high-traffic group, and it never 
> works. You should look at Clay Shirky''s essay "A Group is its
own Worst
I basically agree.  And, I wanted to add that a high volume group CAN be 
helped considerably by a *very well* maintained FAQ, combined with 
*extreme consistency* in NOT re-answering questions that are in the FAQ. 
  Of course I wouldn''t endorse rudeness here, but instead politely 
pointing the re-asker to the FAQ (with a direct link to the specific 
Answer).  For example:

    Please consult the RoR FAQ (link), Question #12.5.

I''ve seen this work very well on a few Usenet groups with results of 
relatively high SNR (yes they do exist, even today).

--Steve

List Recv
    > Comments?

I agree fully; the current situation is a mess, a chaos:
     “everything in one jar"

, but we need to think further on the categorization.


  - rails-university
  - rails-general
  - rails-advanced
  - rails-edge
  - rails-plugins
  - rails-tools
  - rails-install


Other candidates:
   - rails-advanced
   - rails-deploy
   - rails-tuning
   - rails-MacOS (Linux, ..)
   - rails-ide


Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a little order.
RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed.

Alain R.

Andrew
     > The basic problem is that 1) no one wants to self-identify as a
     > beginner,

Not true: see all the "[Noob] .." people add in their questions
subject.
And many would gladly help beginners solve beginners problems, even 
other beginners who are just a little more advanced on this one point.


Alain R.

On 12/11/05, Alain Ravet
<arav2132-6SW1mVBvVAbXsMajfR9tMA@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> List Recv
>     > Comments?
>
> I agree fully; the current situation is a mess, a chaos:
>      "everything in one jar"
>
> , but we need to think further on the categorization.
>
>
>   - rails-university
>   - rails-general
>   - rails-advanced
>   - rails-edge
>   - rails-plugins
>   - rails-tools
>   - rails-install
>
>
> Other candidates:
>    - rails-advanced
>    - rails-deploy
>    - rails-tuning
>    - rails-MacOS (Linux, ..)
>    - rails-ide
>
>
> Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a little order.
> RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed.
I can''t tell if this post is serious or cynical.  You want the list
divided into at least seven categories?  Possibly upwards of 12?  This
seems absolutely insane to me.

On Dec 11, 2005, at 8:09 AM, Stephen Waits wrote:
> Andrew Otwell wrote:
>> This is the classic response to a high-traffic group, and it never  
>> works. You should look at Clay Shirky''s essay "A Group is
its own
>> Worst
>
> I basically agree.  And, I wanted to add that a high volume group  
> CAN be helped considerably by a *very well* maintained FAQ,  
> combined with *extreme consistency* in NOT re-answering questions  
> that are in the FAQ.  Of course I wouldn''t endorse rudeness here,
> but instead politely pointing the re-asker to the FAQ (with a  
> direct link to the specific Answer).  For example:
>
>    Please consult the RoR FAQ (link), Question #12.5.
I agree with everything above.

People tried this (splitting single list with exactly the same  
arguments) for many lists, e.g. Apple''s Cocoa-dev list, which has  
approximately the same volume as this one. Guess what - all those  
extra lists died.

And IMHO, if your MUA is not capable of threading, you are your  
enemy, also...

I read (well, subscribe to, I don''t read every message) this list  
with gmail forwarded to Apple''s Mail.app (and also several other  
lists of approximately same volume), and it is not a problem at all.  
If you can''t handle this list, I would suggest it is you and not the  
list which should rethink the approach.

Let me also repeat what others have said: The list in its current  
form is extremely valuable learning tool, especially considering  
Rails'' rate of change. If you can''t handle this rate of
change,
again, don''t blame it on the world.


izidor

Word. You''re not unique. Uhm, I mean I agree totally.


Kyle Maxwell wrote:
> I probably wouldn''t read a Rails-Help list.  It would get filtered
to
> its own folder, likely never to be read.  As it exists now, I help
> with a few questions a day, just cause the subject line catches me. 
> You split the list, and you lose me for that.  I assume I''m not
> unique.
[snip]

Pat
    > I can''t tell if this post is serious or cynical.  You want the
list
    > divided into at least seven categories?  Possibly upwards of 12?

4 groups are enough for me (see below)


1/ Reread my message: I wrote "we need to think further on the 
categorization.
      I posted a few ideas, to start the discussion.

2/ I don''t think in "lists", in think in
"newsgroups", that are easy to
read and navigate in Thunderbird (f.ex)

3/  4 newsgroups would be enough for me:
   - rails-academy    -- for beginners
   - rails-general
   - rails-advanced
   - rails-install/config



I guess
   - rails-optimization
would be useful to some, but it''s not a must for me.


As a service to 3rd party plugin developers, there should also be
   - rails-plugins




   > This seems absolutely insane to me.
12 newsgroups would be unsane, I agree.
FYI, Jetbrains hosts 14 lists for their product IDEA (during the EAP 
phase): openAPI, plugins, CVS, documentation, etc..



Alain R.

Well said.

The only thing that I would add is that the FAQ would work best if it
were periodically posted (automatically?) to the list so everybody would
see and make use of it. It would also make referencing the FAQ easier if
it was just a few threads "up". Perhaps put "[FAQ]" in the
subject line
so non-newbies can automatically route it to a kill folder if desired.

I was amazed that nobody maintains a FAQ for this list, but
I guess everybody''s too busy to maintain one. Perhaps make it a wiki
page that is automatically posted? Not sure how spam would be handled.


Stephen Waits wrote:
> Andrew Otwell wrote:
> 
>> This is the classic response to a high-traffic group, and it never 
>> works. You should look at Clay Shirky''s essay "A Group is
its own Worst
> 
> 
> I basically agree.  And, I wanted to add that a high volume group CAN be 
> helped considerably by a *very well* maintained FAQ, combined with 
> *extreme consistency* in NOT re-answering questions that are in the FAQ. 
>  Of course I wouldn''t endorse rudeness here, but instead politely 
> pointing the re-asker to the FAQ (with a direct link to the specific 
> Answer).  For example:
> 
>    Please consult the RoR FAQ (link), Question #12.5.
> 
> I''ve seen this work very well on a few Usenet groups with results
of
> relatively high SNR (yes they do exist, even today).
> 
> --Steve

I''d just like to weigh in as a newbie who has been reading the list
quietly for the last few weeks.  I LOVE this list.  Some questions may
go unanswered, but I''m hugely impressed by how helpful this community
is.  I read both newbie questions and advanced topics -- anything
where the subject catches my eye -- both contain enormous amounts of
helpful information.  For me, this list isn''t so much about getting my
own questions answered, but about getting a feel for how people are
working with rails, keeping an eye out for common pitfalls, and
scouting ahead on topics like optimization, deployment, versioning
etc. in case there''s something it''s better to be aware of in
advance,
etc.  And just absorbing more general knowledge.  For these purposes,
it''s actually ideal to have a mixture of beginners and advanced users,
all the way up to people working on the rails code.  My archive of the
list in it''s current abundant, slightly wild-west state sits just
after the Agile Rails book and the Pickaxe in my list of critical
rails resources.

So, first, thank you all.

& second, a vote for the list in its current incarnation (& yes, this
is the first list where I''ve actually switched over to threaded
viewing in an ongoing way - super helpful).

& the FAQ''s a great idea too. possibly including the usual advice
about how to ask questions on a list like this.

Sal

>
> Also, 2) many "newbies" and "users" will tell you that
they''ve picked
> up valuable information by reading questions and answers by the
> "hackers."
>

On Dec 11, 2005, at 3:18 AM, Lou Vanek wrote:
> The only thing that I would add is that the FAQ would work best if it
> were periodically posted (automatically?) to the list so everybody  
> would
> see and make use of it. It would also make referencing the FAQ  
> easier if
> it was just a few threads "up". Perhaps put "[FAQ]" in
the subject
> line
> so non-newbies can automatically route it to a kill folder if desired.
Yep.  For a group with a large influx of new users, such as this,  
probably should happen weekly.  It''s another common practice on  
Usenet groups.
> I was amazed that nobody maintains a FAQ for this list, but
> I guess everybody''s too busy to maintain one. Perhaps make it a
wiki
> page that is automatically posted? Not sure how spam would be handled.
I don''t think a wiki works, actually.  Should be a dedicated FAQ app;  
though it may have wiki-esque features for editing.  I just don''t  
find that a raw wiki works well for organizing FAQs.  If it''s not  
easy, nobody will use it!

I hope all this ignorant business of splitting the group into (as  
many as 12!?!?!) lists will go away soon!

--Steve

Following myself up here..

Looks like someone, Casey Gollan, has already started a [Rails FAQ] 
[1].  Perhaps we can find out if Casey''s willing to open this up to  
the community.  The more editors, the more it can grow.

My suggestions to Casey:

* open editing, submitting questions, and answers
* editing should be wiki-esque (Markdown?) - makes exporting to other  
formats simpler
* allow export to TXT, PDF, HTML so people can take it with them
* remove "new user" focus - no reason it can''t answer all
kinds of
questions
* add organization by category
* numerical chapter & question?  for things like "See FAQ  
#12.9" (though this might make it hard to move things around?)
* needs a search
* really needs to be a full-blown RoR app

--Steve

[1]: http://railsfaq.org/

Stephen Waits wrote:
> Following myself up here..
> 
> Looks like someone, Casey Gollan, has already started a [Rails FAQ] 
> [1].  Perhaps we can find out if Casey''s willing to open this up
to  the
> community.  The more editors, the more it can grow.
> 
> My suggestions to Casey:
> 
> * open editing, submitting questions, and answers
+10
this will make or break this effort
> * editing should be wiki-esque (Markdown?) - makes exporting to other  
markdown works well
> formats simpler
> * allow export to TXT, PDF, HTML so people can take it with them
TXT and HTML is sufficient for me
> * remove "new user" focus - no reason it can''t answer
all kinds of
> questions
focus should be on all common rails questions and tangential issues
> * add organization by category
> * numerical chapter & question?  for things like "See FAQ 
#12.9"
> (though this might make it hard to move things around?)
number are good.
numbers could be autogenerated by a program, such as, oh, perhaps ruby?
> * needs a search
either that, or an option to scwuntch everything up into one long page
so that native search can easily be used
> * really needs to be a full-blown RoR app
it presently looks like a RoR app to me
> 
> --Steve
> 
> [1]: http://railsfaq.org/

On 12/11/05, Stephen Waits <steve-g8GSkY9QmIteoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> * numerical chapter & question?  for things like "See FAQ
> #12.9" (though this might make it hard to move things around?)
Each entry could have a text "tag" that could be used to refer to it
independently of any "chapter number". That way you could organize
things in a chapter fashion, but if things were later moved around,
links that used the text tag would still be valid.

--
Regards,
John Wilger
http://johnwilger.com

-----------
Alice came to a fork in the road. "Which road do I take?" she asked.
"Where do you want to go?" responded the Cheshire cat.
"I don''t know," Alice answered.
"Then," said the cat, "it doesn''t matter."
- Lewis Carrol, Alice in Wonderland

On 12/11/05, Lou Vanek <vanek-9H8CmIPm+GA@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> Stephen Waits wrote:
>
> > Following myself up here..
> >
> > Looks like someone, Casey Gollan, has already started a [Rails FAQ]
> > [1].  Perhaps we can find out if Casey''s willing to open this
up to  the
> > community.  The more editors, the more it can grow.
May I humbly suggest my Rails Weenie site?  It''s my take on an Expert
Exchange site.  Answer questions or post helpful tips for points. I
actually wrote Rails Weenie as a way to help newcomers, as well as
provide some kind of incentive for folks to help out.  Well, I know my
''points'' aren''t worth much in the real world, but it
could get some
friendly competition going.

--
rick
http://techno-weenie.net

re: http://rails.techno-weenie.net/

. nice access controls
. can''t figure out how to add questions, just answers.
   ah, i think it''s under ''tips.'' not very intuitive.
. i get an application error when i click on ''Events''
. search appears to only search titles, not full text
. prefer markdown over textile, myself
. would be nice to be able to see short list of most popular
   searches and articles clicked on
. nice presentation
. site is sluggish
. not sure how site would translate to plain ascii
. maybe other people, e.g. Casey Gollan, would donate their
   entries
. would have to write a small program to periodically and
   automatically post to the rails list, perhaps with a list
   of the most recently added article titles

conclusion, it''s a wonderful start.



Rick Olson wrote:
> On 12/11/05, Lou Vanek <vanek-9H8CmIPm+GA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 
>>Stephen Waits wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Following myself up here..
>>>
>>>Looks like someone, Casey Gollan, has already started a [Rails FAQ]
>>>[1].  Perhaps we can find out if Casey''s willing to open
this up to  the
>>>community.  The more editors, the more it can grow.
> 
> 
> May I humbly suggest my Rails Weenie site?  It''s my take on an
Expert
> Exchange site.  Answer questions or post helpful tips for points. I
> actually wrote Rails Weenie as a way to help newcomers, as well as
> provide some kind of incentive for folks to help out.  Well, I know my
> ''points'' aren''t worth much in the real world,
but it could get some
> friendly competition going.
> 
> --
> rick
> http://techno-weenie.net

> . can''t figure out how to add questions, just answers.
>    ah, i think it''s under ''tips.'' not very
intuitive.
You go under Tips to add tips and Questions to add questions.  Yes, I
should have big fluffy buttons and whatnot.  I still only get a 4 on
the Web 2.0 validator, and that is unacceptable.
> . i get an application error when i click on ''Events''
Fixed.  I was experimenting in the DB and didnt fully clean my mess up :)
> . search appears to only search titles, not full text
Fixed.
> . prefer markdown over textile, myself
Well, I don''t expect folks to be doing too much formatting beyond a
simple code tag for syntax.
> . would be nice to be able to see short list of most popular
>    searches and articles clicked on
Hmm nice idea.  There''s an issue related to my caching though.
> . site is sluggish
That''s odd, since I''m using Page Caching on the whole damn
site.  I''m
using a referenced page caching plugin that saves which objects were
rendered on a certain page.  When those models are updated, I expire
all the caches fo the pages they were rendered on.  So, the first hit
will take a bit longer to render depending on how many articles are
being rendered.  Each hit afterwards should be blazing fast.  I wonder
if any of this sluggishness is due to the site being proxied through
apache?
> . not sure how site would translate to plain ascii
For what?
> . would have to write a small program to periodically and
>    automatically post to the rails list, perhaps with a list
>    of the most recently added article titles
Not a bad idea I suppose, but I''d hate to bother folks that subscribe
to the list and don''t want it.  There are lots of Atom feeds though.


--
rick
http://techno-weenie.net

Sorry, i have markdown on my brain. Textile works for me.

Lou Vanek wrote:
> . prefer markdown over textile, myself
[snip]

On Dec 11, 2005, at 10:52 AM, Rick Olson wrote:
>> . not sure how site would translate to plain ascii
>
> For what?
For regular group postings.  Also where Markdown helps, I suppose.

Overall, sure, your site seems like a good place to tackle this job.   
Not quite your typical FAQ; but, I''d say still great.

--Steve

Rick Olson wrote:

[snip]
>>. would be nice to be able to see short list of most popular
>>   searches and articles clicked on
> 
> 
> Hmm nice idea.  There''s an issue related to my caching though.
I don''t see the issue, especially if the lists are generated just
once or twice a day.

> 
>>. site is sluggish
> 
> 
> That''s odd, since I''m using Page Caching on the whole
damn site.  I''m
> using a referenced page caching plugin that saves which objects were
> rendered on a certain page.  When those models are updated, I expire
> all the caches fo the pages they were rendered on.  So, the first hit
> will take a bit longer to render depending on how many articles are
> being rendered.  Each hit afterwards should be blazing fast.  I wonder
> if any of this sluggishness is due to the site being proxied through
> apache?

oh, after further testing your site is very fast when I use Firefox, but
slower than molasses when I use Mozilla 1.7.11. Must be me. Don''t worry
about it.

> 
>>. not sure how site would translate to plain ascii
> 
> 
> For what?
some people like to access FAQs off line.

> 
> 
>>. would have to write a small program to periodically and
>>   automatically post to the rails list, perhaps with a list
>>   of the most recently added article titles
> 
> 
> Not a bad idea I suppose, but I''d hate to bother folks that
subscribe
> to the list and don''t want it.  There are lots of Atom feeds
though.
a FAQ does little good if it isn''t advertised.

as long as the subject is marked [FAQ] all the gray beards can write
their mail filters appropriately. Might take 30 seconds. I''m not
suggesting that the rails list should be constantly spammed, just
remind everybody that a living FAQ exists. Maybe people would even
use it. Call me crazy.
> 
> 
> --
> rick
> http://techno-weenie.net

Hi:

I am agnostic on whether the list should split.  It seems like a good  
idea, but I have read that others with more experience say it is a  
bad idea.  Their opinions are more informed than my own; I defer to  
their greater knowledge.

However, we may be considering two alternatives vs 3 and the third  
might be better.  If people were to put the level (their judgement)  
in their question it might certainly help.  Noobs often do anyhow,  
but perhaps others also.

How I deal with the volume in this list (I certainly don''t have time  
to read each one) and being a NOOB myself - I  look for simple stuff  
only and see if I can reply usefully.  I don''t even look at the  
complicated stuff yet. But at least I have that option if I wanted to  
learn a thing or two.

It does not take more than 2 seconds to read a subject header and  
delete and email so even at 150 entries a day, it is a 5 minute  
investment to read the list. I have learned things that have saved me  
hours and got answers to questions that have saved me hours more. I  
consider I am "in profit" on my list time.

Anyone who does not want to be helpful and be somewhat level  
identifying in the subject line runs the risk of simply being ignored  
by some people.

To summarize - a voluntary system of assigning 1 of three levels  
perhaps, would facilitate focus without splitting the list.  Those  
who don''t cooperate may suffer some minor tendency to be ignored by  
some less important faction of the list, but it would likely not be  
fatal.  The list seems to run mainly on good will anyhow - so it  
might be worth a try.  I see little downside if this idea fails to  
catch on, whereas splitting the list may lead to more permanent  
damage as may overwhelming people with too many entries to read.

bruce


On 11-Dec-05, at 3:07 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
> Andrew
>     > The basic problem is that 1) no one wants to self-identify as a
>     > beginner,
>
> Not true: see all the "[Noob] .." people add in their questions  
> subject.
> And many would gladly help beginners solve beginners problems, even  
> other beginners who are just a little more advanced on this one point.
>
>
> Alain R.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

> >>. would be nice to be able to see short list of most popular
> >>   searches and articles clicked on
> >
> >
> > Hmm nice idea.  There''s an issue related to my caching
though.
>
> I don''t see the issue, especially if the lists are generated just
> once or twice a day.
The issue is that my pages are cached, and therefore not being hit by
rails.  I''d have to hook up some stats analysis (which I really should
do anyway) to get that.  I''ve really been meaning to setup weed for
something like this actually.

> >
> >>. not sure how site would translate to plain ascii
> >
> >
> > For what?
>
> some people like to access FAQs off line.
There are apps for this kind of offline caching.
> >
> > Not a bad idea I suppose, but I''d hate to bother folks that
subscribe
> > to the list and don''t want it.  There are lots of Atom feeds
though.
>
> a FAQ does little good if it isn''t advertised.
>
> as long as the subject is marked [FAQ] all the gray beards can write
> their mail filters appropriately. Might take 30 seconds. I''m not
> suggesting that the rails list should be constantly spammed, just
> remind everybody that a living FAQ exists. Maybe people would even
> use it. Call me crazy.
Well, anyone can set this up.  Just scan the rss feed and post a
digest every few days.  I still think it''d be unnecessary noise on the
list and all the beardless can subscribe to the feed.  Though,
advertising for the site is definitely a weak point...


--
rick
http://techno-weenie.net

-1

This has been discussed before. Bad idea.

> From: List Recv <listrecv-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
> Reply-To: <rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org>
> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 03:20:28 +0100
> To: <rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org>
> Subject: [Rails] PROPOSAL: The list needs to fork (desperately).
> 
> I''d like to propsoe that the RubyOnRails mailing list forks into
three
> lists.
> 
> PROBLEM:
> * The list is getting swamped with traffic, making it hard to use and
> even harder to follow.
> * Many, many messages get lost, with no reply.
> * Due to the overwhelming traffic, it''s hard for beginners to get
the
> help that they need, since their messages get lost in the shuffle, and
> it''s hard for advanced users to work together, for the same
reason.
> 
> PROPOSED SOLUTION:
> Fork the list into three new lists:
> * Rails-Beginners.  For questions and answers on how to use Rails.  No
> "read the docs, fool!" here.
> * Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to discuss
> particular topics.  Example topics include  application design advice,
> optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
> * Rails-Hackers.  For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails.
> Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the like.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> -- 
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

On Dec 11, 2005, at 2:01 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
> List Recv
>    > Comments?
>
> I agree fully; the current situation is a mess, a chaos:
>     “everything in one jar"
>
> , but we need to think further on the categorization.
>
>
>  - rails-university
>  - rails-general
>  - rails-advanced
>  - rails-edge
>  - rails-plugins
>  - rails-tools
>  - rails-install
>
>
> Other candidates:
>   - rails-advanced
>   - rails-deploy
>   - rails-tuning
>   - rails-MacOS (Linux, ..)
>   - rails-ide
>
>
> Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a  
> little order.
> RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed.
>
> Alain R.

  	I don''t think so.. This has come up a few times before and the  
general consensus has been to keep the list intact as one. I have  
been on this list for a year or more and I have learned a ton of what  
I know about rails by reading posts that were over my head. I have  
also helped out a ton of noobies that would not have gotten my help  
if I had to go read a different list to help them. Since all the  
rails messages are on one list, questions have a better chance of  
being seen by people who can answer.

	There is a decent ruby/rails forum for relative noobies at : http:// 
www.sitepoint.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=227 if you are more  
comfortable there. My vote is for keeping the list as one whole.

Cheers-

-Ezra Zygmuntowicz
WebMaster
Yakima Herald-Republic Newspaper
ezra-gdxLOakOTQ9oetBuM9ipNAC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org
509-577-7732

Pat Maddox <pergesu-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:
> I hardly think that this list is getting "swamped"
        I think the problem is with the user''s client.  I had a
terrible
time following this group using it as a mailing list.  There *is* too
much traffic if you''re trying to follow it message-by-message,
concept-by-concept.

        On the other hand, if you''re used to a forum-based interface,
using the gmane.comp.lang.ruby.rails NNTP interface makes reading this
as a newsgroup easy.  I use gnus, the emacs client, and *that* makes
this list look the way it should: like many conversations in dialogue,
not all of which I have to pay any attention to whatsoever.

                Elf

On 11/12/2005, at 9:25 PM, Izidor Jerebic wrote:
>
> People tried this (splitting single list with exactly the same  
> arguments) for many lists, e.g. Apple''s Cocoa-dev list, which has
> approximately the same volume as this one. Guess what - all those  
> extra lists died.
>
> And IMHO, if your MUA is not capable of threading, you are your  
> enemy, also...
>
> I read (well, subscribe to, I don''t read every message) this list
> with gmail forwarded to Apple''s Mail.app (and also several other  
> lists of approximately same volume), and it is not a problem at  
> all. If you can''t handle this list, I would suggest it is you and
> not the list which should rethink the approach.
+1

With a mail program that does decent threading, the volume of this  
list isn''t a problem at all. I have the same setup as Izidor, and it  
takes me a couple of minutes to scan through a day''s worth of topics  
and read anything I''m interested in.

And to the people who say "We''ll split off a beginner''s
list, but
we''ll all still read that one too", if you''re still going
to read the
same number of messages, what, exactly, is easier about doing it on  
two lists rather than one?

Pete Yandell

-1

Hi all,

This newbie absolutely agrees on keeping this list as whole! As a lot of other 
people stated already, and also for me, the power is in reading threads of 
the RoR big dudes. I would say to everybody keep (it) up.

Oh .. We maybe could start a seperate list on whether or not this list should 
be split up .. :-)

Friendly greetings from Rotterdam - the Netherlands.

Gerard.


On Sunday 11 December 2005 22:19, Ezra Zygmuntowicz tried to type something 
like:
> On Dec 11, 2005, at 2:01 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
> > List Recv
> >
> >    > Comments?
> >
> > I agree fully; the current situation is a mess, a chaos:
> >     “everything in one jar"
> >
> > , but we need to think further on the categorization.
> >
> >
> >  - rails-university
> >  - rails-general
> >  - rails-advanced
> >  - rails-edge
> >  - rails-plugins
> >  - rails-tools
> >  - rails-install
> >
> >
> > Other candidates:
> >   - rails-advanced
> >   - rails-deploy
> >   - rails-tuning
> >   - rails-MacOS (Linux, ..)
> >   - rails-ide
> >
> >
> > Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a
> > little order.
> > RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed.
> >
> > Alain R.
>
>   	I don''t think so.. This has come up a few times before and the
> general consensus has been to keep the list intact as one. I have
> been on this list for a year or more and I have learned a ton of what
> I know about rails by reading posts that were over my head. I have
> also helped out a ton of noobies that would not have gotten my help
> if I had to go read a different list to help them. Since all the
> rails messages are on one list, questions have a better chance of
> being seen by people who can answer.
>
> 	There is a decent ruby/rails forum for relative noobies at : http://
> www.sitepoint.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=227 if you are more
> comfortable there. My vote is for keeping the list as one whole.
>
> Cheers-
>
> -Ezra Zygmuntowicz
> WebMaster
> Yakima Herald-Republic Newspaper
> ezra-gdxLOakOTQ9oetBuM9ipNAC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org
> 509-577-7732
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
-- 
$biz = http://www.gp-net.nl ;
$fun = http://www.mrmental.com ;
~
~
:wq!


-- 
"Who cares if it doesn''t do anything?  It was made with our new
Triple-Iso-Bifurcated-Krypton-Gate-MOS process ..."

My $Grtz =~ Gerard;
~
:wq!

heh well put!
I''ve never felt as welcomed as a noob as in this list


2005/12/11, Gerard
<mailing-cTiHyVPm3bxmR6Xm/wNWPw@public.gmane.org>:
>
> Hi all,
>
> This newbie absolutely agrees on keeping this list as whole! As a lot of
> other
> people stated already, and also for me, the power is in reading threads of
> the RoR big dudes. I would say to everybody keep (it) up.
>
> Oh .. We maybe could start a seperate list on whether or not this list
> should
> be split up .. :-)
>
> Friendly greetings from Rotterdam - the Netherlands.
>
> Gerard.
>
>
> On Sunday 11 December 2005 22:19, Ezra Zygmuntowicz tried to type
> something
> like:
> > On Dec 11, 2005, at 2:01 AM, Alain Ravet wrote:
> > > List Recv
> > >
> > >    > Comments?
> > >
> > > I agree fully; the current situation is a mess, a chaos:
> > >     "everything in one jar"
> > >
> > > , but we need to think further on the categorization.
> > >
> > >
> > >  - rails-university
> > >  - rails-general
> > >  - rails-advanced
> > >  - rails-edge
> > >  - rails-plugins
> > >  - rails-tools
> > >  - rails-install
> > >
> > >
> > > Other candidates:
> > >   - rails-advanced
> > >   - rails-deploy
> > >   - rails-tuning
> > >   - rails-MacOS (Linux, ..)
> > >   - rails-ide
> > >
> > >
> > > Everybody - askers and helpers -would be better served with a
> > > little order.
> > > RForum could help us here, if tags were allowed.
> > >
> > > Alain R.
> >
> >       I don''t think so.. This has come up a few times before
and the
> > general consensus has been to keep the list intact as one. I have
> > been on this list for a year or more and I have learned a ton of what
> > I know about rails by reading posts that were over my head. I have
> > also helped out a ton of noobies that would not have gotten my help
> > if I had to go read a different list to help them. Since all the
> > rails messages are on one list, questions have a better chance of
> > being seen by people who can answer.
> >
> >       There is a decent ruby/rails forum for relative noobies at :
> http://
> > www.sitepoint.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=227 if you are more
> > comfortable there. My vote is for keeping the list as one whole.
> >
> > Cheers-
> >
> > -Ezra Zygmuntowicz
> > WebMaster
> > Yakima Herald-Republic Newspaper
> > ezra-gdxLOakOTQ9oetBuM9ipNAC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org
> > 509-577-7732
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails mailing list
> > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
> --
> $biz = http://www.gp-net.nl ;
> $fun = http://www.mrmental.com ;
> ~
> ~
> :wq!
>
>
> --
> "Who cares if it doesn''t do anything?  It was made with our
new
> Triple-Iso-Bifurcated-Krypton-Gate-MOS process ..."
>
> My $Grtz =~ Gerard;
> ~
> :wq!
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

On 12/11/05, Stephen Waits <steve-g8GSkY9QmIteoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> I basically agree.  And, I wanted to add that a high volume group CAN be
> helped considerably by a *very well* maintained FAQ, combined with
> *extreme consistency* in NOT re-answering questions that are in the FAQ.
>   Of course I wouldn''t endorse rudeness here, but instead politely
> pointing the re-asker to the FAQ (with a direct link to the specific
> Answer).  For example:
>
>     Please consult the RoR FAQ (link), Question #12.5.
>
> I''ve seen this work very well on a few Usenet groups with results
of
> relatively high SNR (yes they do exist, even today).
>
> --Steve
Big plus one on the FAQ idea.  The wiki is great and all, but it is no
substitute for a well-maintained, reliable faq in keeping the same old
newbie questions answered.
- Rob

--
http://www.robsanheim.com/
http://www.ajaxian.com/

List Recv wrote:
> 
> * Rails-Beginners...Rails-Users...Rails-Hackers.
+0.

Agree with a fork, disagree with the categories you choose.

I''d favor

   * Rails-beta
      Discuss any pre-released stuff.  I care almost nothing
      about bugs in RCs, YARV, or other future visions; since
      I''m not using those versions and not qualified to contribute
      to helping those threads either.

   * Rails-database
      A place for all the "why doesn''t YourSQL follow a
standard"
      or "how do I do a like clause" or "how do I do a join"
      or "*habtm*" queries and "which mysql version do you
like"
      messages.  Many of these seem to be discussions
      not about Rails but about database programming in general,
      and are often are database-vendor-specific conversations.

   * Rails-administration
      A place for all the "fastcgi vs lighthttp vs webrick
      vs Apache vs IIS vs scgi" stuff that''s often set up
      only occasionally.  I care durring the brief moments
      durring the year where we talk out our network infrastructure.

And perhaps
    * Rails-advocacy
      All the "Java vs Hibernate" and "does anyone
      at MegaCorp use rails" and "the timbucktoo users group
      is meeting at 1:45pm".  These were interesting before
      we decided to use Rails; but are much less interesting now.

And a
     * Rails-general
       Group that would contain all the conversations
       about Rails itself (except the experimental
       pre-release stuff that would be in the beta group)


Yes, with a decent killfile (hundreds of lines
filtering MySQL, Apache, DB2, Windows, MacOS, HABTM, etc)
the list is pretty easy to read; but more targeted
groups would make things even easier.

-1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i don''t like
categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a msg belongs
to

On 12/14/05, Ron M
<rm_rails-UcKGQH7FHzBMN/HSMNDb9vDyrmpsABaS@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
>
> List Recv wrote:
> >
> > * Rails-Beginners...Rails-Users...Rails-Hackers.
>
> +0.
>
> Agree with a fork, disagree with the categories you choose.
>
> I''d favor
>
>   * Rails-beta
>      Discuss any pre-released stuff.  I care almost nothing
>      about bugs in RCs, YARV, or other future visions; since
>      I''m not using those versions and not qualified to contribute
>      to helping those threads either.
>
>   * Rails-database
>      A place for all the "why doesn''t YourSQL follow a
standard"
>      or "how do I do a like clause" or "how do I do a
join"
>      or "*habtm*" queries and "which mysql version do you
like"
>      messages.  Many of these seem to be discussions
>      not about Rails but about database programming in general,
>      and are often are database-vendor-specific conversations.
>
>   * Rails-administration
>      A place for all the "fastcgi vs lighthttp vs webrick
>      vs Apache vs IIS vs scgi" stuff that''s often set up
>      only occasionally.  I care durring the brief moments
>      durring the year where we talk out our network infrastructure.
>
> And perhaps
>    * Rails-advocacy
>      All the "Java vs Hibernate" and "does anyone
>      at MegaCorp use rails" and "the timbucktoo users group
>      is meeting at 1:45pm".  These were interesting before
>      we decided to use Rails; but are much less interesting now.
>
> And a
>     * Rails-general
>       Group that would contain all the conversations
>       about Rails itself (except the experimental
>       pre-release stuff that would be in the beta group)
>
>
> Yes, with a decent killfile (hundreds of lines
> filtering MySQL, Apache, DB2, Windows, MacOS, HABTM, etc)
> the list is pretty easy to read; but more targeted
> groups would make things even easier.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

Nicolas Buet wrote:
> -1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i don''t
like
> categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a msg 
 -1: keep it as is. Ruby-forum.com has solved all my problems !


-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

-1

Maybe more liberal use of [NEWBIE] [ANN] and [OT], but I like seeing
most of the communities activity in one place.  If you think this needs
to fork, spend 15 minutes subscribed to the Linux kernel list :-p

-Matthew Beale
mixonic-8rZIAEcCR/xWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org :: 607 227 0871


On Wed, 2005-12-14 at 21:18 +0100, aap-KSrkq06vtGZfJ/NunPodnw@public.gmane.org
wrote:
> Nicolas Buet wrote:
> > -1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i
don''t like
> > categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a msg 
> 
>  -1: keep it as is. Ruby-forum.com has solved all my problems !
> 
>

aap-KSrkq06vtGZfJ/NunPodnw@public.gmane.org wrote:
> Nicolas Buet wrote:
>   
>> -1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i
don''t like
>> categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a msg 
>>     
>
>  -1: keep it as is. Ruby-forum.com has solved all my problems 
ruby-forum.com may have solved your problems, but I think the interface 
between ruby-forum.com and this mailing list needs some work.

For example:  If someone posts a reply in ruby-forum.com without quoting 
the previous post, then it results in a post to the mailing list that 
has no meaning to "pure" mailing list users.

I think apps like ruby-forum.com need checks and balances in place to 
prevent "bad/missing content" from being sent back to the mailing
list.

$0.02

-Sean

Sean Stephens wrote:

    > I think apps like ruby-forum.com need checks and balances in place to
   ...

What ruby-forum needs is - public - tags, and some appointed volunteers 
to tag messages/threads appropriately:

     "install", "Linux", "performance",
"hosting", "mysql", "MacOS",
"plugin", etc...

Being able to filter by those tags first, before searching the whole 
message pile would make the whole digging faster and more efficient.


Alain

Can someone please fork the list forking discussion to a separate list? kthx

On 12/14/05, Sean Stephens <schmoboy-j9pdmedNgrk@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> aap-KSrkq06vtGZfJ/NunPodnw@public.gmane.org wrote:
> > Nicolas Buet wrote:
> >
> >> -1: keep it as is. gmail search function does a good job, i
don''t like
> >> categories unless one can easily figure out to which category a
msg
> >>
> >
> >  -1: keep it as is. Ruby-forum.com has solved all my problems
> ruby-forum.com may have solved your problems, but I think the interface
> between ruby-forum.com and this mailing list needs some work.
>
> For example:  If someone posts a reply in ruby-forum.com without quoting
> the previous post, then it results in a post to the mailing list that
> has no meaning to "pure" mailing list users.
>
> I think apps like ruby-forum.com need checks and balances in place to
> prevent "bad/missing content" from being sent back to the mailing
list.
>
> $0.02
>
> -Sean
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

My two cents worth.

I was having trouble with keeping up with the list until I switched  
threads on in my mail client (mail.app os x). After that I have found  
it no trouble, just like the gentleman below.

I''d do that first before making further judgments on the list.  See  
what you think.

bruce

PS. I hope I have aggravated only the unreasonable and that I have  
seemed sane to the wise.


On 11-Dec-05, at 2:19 PM, Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
> Pat Maddox <pergesu-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
>> I hardly think that this list is getting "swamped"
>
>         I think the problem is with the user''s client.  I had a  
> terrible
> time following this group using it as a mailing list.  There *is* too
> much traffic if you''re trying to follow it message-by-message,
> concept-by-concept.
>
>         On the other hand, if you''re used to a forum-based
interface,
> using the gmane.comp.lang.ruby.rails NNTP interface makes reading this
> as a newsgroup easy.  I use gnus, the emacs client, and *that* makes
> this list look the way it should: like many conversations in dialogue,
> not all of which I have to pay any attention to whatsoever.
>
>                 Elf
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

IMHO the traffic is pretty normal flow for a mailling list. Anyone who
has had experience with other high traffic lists knows that you have
to have some method for reading them efficiently.

Why I think forking would not be good:

1. It creates yet another mailing list to subscribe to (DRY anyone?)
2. It seperates classes of users: (a) Advanced users will have less
incentive to aid noobs since they live on a different list, (b) Noobs
loose out on advanced assistance, and (c) intermediate users just get
lost all together.

The current problem (harm) seems to only be for individuals who
haven''t figured out how to best traverse a mailling list. And as a
number of people have already comented this can be solved by using an
email client that threads the list emails into conversations. Also,
people can create filters as they need them.

Most of the time I end up deleting about 95% of the mailing list
emails since they don''t apply to me. I have a simply filter set up to
so i can batch view and delete the RoR emails as needed.

Dave
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
D''Andrew "Dave" Thompson
http://dathompson.blogspot.com

On 12/15/05, Bruce Balmer <brucebalmer-ee4meeAH724@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> My two cents worth.
>
> I was having trouble with keeping up with the list until I switched
> threads on in my mail client (mail.app os x). After that I have found
> it no trouble, just like the gentleman below.
>
> I''d do that first before making further judgments on the list. 
See
> what you think.
>
> bruce
>
> PS. I hope I have aggravated only the unreasonable and that I have
> seemed sane to the wise.
>
>
> On 11-Dec-05, at 2:19 PM, Elf M. Sternberg wrote:
>
> > Pat Maddox <pergesu-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
writes:
> >
> >> I hardly think that this list is getting "swamped"
> >
> >         I think the problem is with the user''s client.  I had
a
> > terrible
> > time following this group using it as a mailing list.  There *is* too
> > much traffic if you''re trying to follow it
message-by-message,
> > concept-by-concept.
> >
> >         On the other hand, if you''re used to a forum-based
interface,
> > using the gmane.comp.lang.ruby.rails NNTP interface makes reading this
> > as a newsgroup easy.  I use gnus, the emacs client, and *that* makes
> > this list look the way it should: like many conversations in dialogue,
> > not all of which I have to pay any attention to whatsoever.
> >
> >                 Elf
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rails mailing list
> > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

Elf
     > gmane.comp.lang.ruby.rails NNTP interface makes reading this
    > as a newsgroup easy.


- "Reading", or skimming the news stuff is only half of the story, and
that''s true, the high volume is not a problem if you use a newsgroup
client.
- "Digging" ( searching, retrieving) is the other half, and
that''s
where the trouble is: you are looking for a needle in a hay stack, and 
you don''t know for sure what the needle looks like.
Everything is mixed up: Windows installation problems vs MySql hickups 
on MacOS, Newbies pure ruby questions vs Rails performance tips, etc...
The ideal solution would be tagging (my favourite request for RForum), 
but it''s not possible for now. Categorizing is the 2nd choice, but
it''s
the only one that can be implemented.

As an experiment, I will start tagging with gmail. I''m afraid it will
be
time consuming, but who knows, maybe it will work for me.

Alain

I vote for keeping it simple. One framework, one list.

Using a threaded view in your client, as mentioned before, makes life  
as simple as it needs to be at this time.



On 11 Dec 2005, at 02:35, Joshua Harvey wrote:
> +1
>
> Although a general announcements list might be a good idea, too.
>
> lstrecv wrote:
>
>> PROPOSED SOLUTION:
>> Fork the list into three new lists:
>> * Rails-Beginners.  For questions and answers on how to use  
>> Rails.  No
>> "read the docs, fool!" here.
>> * Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to  
>> discuss
>> particular topics.  Example topics include  application design  
>> advice,
>> optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
>> * Rails-Hackers.  For people writing extensions and plug ins to  
>> rails.
>> Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the  
>> like.
>>
>> Comments?
>
>
> -- 
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

Steven Mohapi-Banks wrote:
   >One framework, one list.

Linux/MacOS, plugins/engines/edgeRails, CMS/habtm/PDF, Ajax/Ruby/Windows 
IDE, etc...
One list, indeed....

Alain

It''s all Rails to me!

I tend to see things quite simplistically though.


On 15 Dec 2005, at 21:43, Alain Ravet wrote:
> Steven Mohapi-Banks wrote:
>   >One framework, one list.
>
> Linux/MacOS, plugins/engines/edgeRails, CMS/habtm/PDF, Ajax/Ruby/ 
> Windows IDE, etc...
> One list, indeed....
>
> Alain
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

On Dec 15, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Alain Ravet wrote:
> Steven Mohapi-Banks wrote:
>   >One framework, one list.
>
> Linux/MacOS, plugins/engines/edgeRails, CMS/habtm/PDF, Ajax/Ruby/ 
> Windows IDE, etc...
> One list, indeed....
	Yes indeed it really is one great list ;) I don''t think you will get  
much traction for your idea about splitting the list. I think that  
having a huge range of skill sets and topics is how you will learn  
about rails the fastest.

	Linux/MacOS, plugins/engines/edgeRails, CMS/habtm/PDF, Ajax/Ruby/ 
Windows IDE, etc... <-- These all have to do with rails. just ignore  
the threads you are not interested in.


Cheers-
-Ezra Zygmuntowicz
Yakima Herald-Republic
WebMaster
http://yakimaherald.com
509-577-7732
ezra-gdxLOakOTQ9oetBuM9ipNAC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org

Ezra

   >These all have to do with rails. just ignore  the threads you are 
not interested in.

How do I know if I''m not interested?
If only people would always :
  - write meaningful and accurate subjects
  - start a new thread, and not hijack and existing one...


Alain

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Ezra
  > just ignore the threads you are not interested in.

And if I''m only interested LATER, how am I going to find/retrieve the 
info, in the tens of thousands of messages, many with useless titles?
A needle in a forest of hay stacks.

I''m afraid we must accept that
  1/ the archives are useless, because of the size
  2/ FAQs are the only viable solution.

And please note that I am 100% for forking the FAQ: I want a FAQ for 
installation, a FAQ for MacOS, etc..


Alain

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Search engines are your friend. In addition to Google, there are at 
least half a dozen decent open source search engines. There are swish-e, 
lucene, namazu, estraier and hyperestraier that I have available in 
Gentoo Linux, and there are probably others.

Now that I think of it, isn''t there a port of lucene to Ruby?

And just about every reasonable email client has a built in search 
engine, if you''re not interested in external tools.

I''ve had the best luck with Namazu for my own personal search engine.
It
comes configured out of the box for indexing PDF and Word documents, 
while most of the others require some configuration to do that.

Alain Ravet wrote:
>Ezra
>  > just ignore the threads you are not interested in.
>
>And if I''m only interested LATER, how am I going to find/retrieve
the
>info, in the tens of thousands of messages, many with useless titles?
>A needle in a forest of hay stacks.
>
>I''m afraid we must accept that
>  1/ the archives are useless, because of the size
>  2/ FAQs are the only viable solution.
>
>And please note that I am 100% for forking the FAQ: I want a FAQ for 
>installation, a FAQ for MacOS, etc..
>
>
>Alain
>
>  
>
-- 
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

http://linuxcapacityplanning.com

ferret
> Now that I think of it, isn''t there a port of lucene to Ruby?

Right ... ferret ... thanks!! I think I''ll download it and see if it
can
do what Namazu is doing.

Abdur-Rahman Advany wrote:
> ferret
>
>> Now that I think of it, isn''t there a port of lucene to Ruby?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
-- 
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

http://linuxcapacityplanning.com

What is wrong with forking the list? Many other projects have forked lists so
what is the reason it cannot be done for this list?

Opening your mail client to see that more than 300 mails have arrived within the
last 16 hours is ridiculous. Unless you have nothing else to do...

/Torben

On Dec 11, 2005, at 11:20 , List Recv wrote:
> PROPOSED SOLUTION:
> Fork the list into three new lists:
> * Rails-Beginners.  For questions and answers on how to use Rails.  No
> "read the docs, fool!" here.
> * Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to  
> discuss
> particular topics.  Example topics include  application design advice,
> optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
> * Rails-Hackers.  For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails.
> Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the  
> like.
+1, though I think Rails-Beginners and Rails-Users would be enough.

Michael Glaesemann
grzm myrealbox com

On Dec 16, 2005, at 16:36 , Torben Wölm wrote:
> What is wrong with forking the list? Many other projects have  
> forked lists so what is the reason it cannot be done for this list?
Also, there is nothing preventing people from subscribing to more  
than one list: novices who need help getting started and want to  
follow what non-beginners are discussing can subscribe to two (or  
three) lists, as can non-beginners who want to help out those just  
starting out. It''s only limiting or splitting the community if you  
want to see it that way. Another way to look at it is focussing  
resources to where they''re best applied.

I think a well-maintained faq is also very helpful (along online  
docs) for referencing people to, uh, frequently answered questions.

Michael Glaesemann
grzm myrealbox com

Hi,

what do you think of adding this list to gmane ? It helps a lot for the
searches.

Thibaut


_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

Hi, Thibaut,

just for your bookmarks:

http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.ruby.rails

as well as

http://www.ruby-forum.com

Regards
Jan

Thibaut Barrère wrote:
> Hi,
>
> what do you think of adding this list to gmane ? It helps a lot for 
> the searches.
>
> Thibaut
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rails mailing list
>Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
>http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>  
>

I had search before but could not find it... Which lead me to the false
conclusion it was not there.

Thanks!

Thibaut

On 16/12/05, Jan Prill <JanPrill-sTn/vYlS8ieELgA04lAiVw@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
>
> Hi, Thibaut,
>
> just for your bookmarks:
>
> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.ruby.rails
>
> as well as
>
> http://www.ruby-forum.com
>
> Regards
> Jan
>
> Thibaut Barrère wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > what do you think of adding this list to gmane ? It helps a lot for
> > the searches.
> >
> > Thibaut
> >
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Rails mailing list
> >Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> >http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>

_______________________________________________
Rails mailing list
Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails

Splitting the list based on user "types" would be a bad idea, IMHO.

Instead, I''d suggest splitting based on topic, for instance: into
rails-support and rails-discussion

Regards,
Tomas Jogin

List Recv wrote:
> PROPOSED SOLUTION:
> Fork the list into three new lists:
> * Rails-Beginners.  For questions and answers on how to use Rails.  No 
> "read the docs, fool!" here.
> * Rails-Users. For users who are already proficient, and want to discuss 
> particular topics.  Example topics include  application design advice, 
> optimization, security, plug ins, and best practices.
> * Rails-Hackers.  For people writing extensions and plug ins to rails. 
> Things like localization, selenium integration, acts_as_*, and the like.
Whatever u do please create a mirror of the lists on google groups.

Lorenzo