On 30/11/14 14:16, John Sorkin wrote:> I don't see a link that is labeled "unsubscribe".<SNIP>>> On Nov 29, 2014, at 7:35 PM, Jeff Newmiller <jdnewmil at dcn.davis.CA.us> > wrote: >> >> In what way would that be unlike the link that is already there?<SNIP>>> On November 29, 2014 4:09:29 PM PST, John Sorkin > <jsorkin at grecc.umaryland.edu> wrote: >>>> Requests like this appear from time to time. Would it make sense to >>> add a link to the bottom of the email messages generated by the mail >>> program that is labeled and goes directly to the unsubscribe page?Well, there is no "unsubscribe" page as such. The link given, i.e. https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help takes you to the primary help page. That provides a link to a (password protected) page where you can handle all matters pertaining to your r-help subscription, including unsubscribing. I suppose that it might be possible to provide a link taking one directly to this second page, but: (1) It would add clutter (I'm sure we don't want to delete the link to the primary help page). (2) The password protection might get complicated; I don't know about such matters. (3) I don't think we want to waste time and resources helping people who are too stupid and illiterate to find their way to the unsubscribe facility on the basis of what is already provided. They shouldn't be R users in the first place. One needs at least two grey cells to rub together to deal with R. cheers, Rolf Turner -- Rolf Turner Technical Editor ANZJS
I think r-help list software supports unsubscribe headers. When this option is enabled an additional header containing an unsubscribe link is sent with every message do the list. This header is interpreted by some email clients like Hotmail and Gmail, and a small unsubscribe button is placed after the sender's email. Enabling this won't hurt, it won't add more text to emails and maybe can save a few messages like this. #! F?bio On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 12:14 AM, Rolf Turner <r.turner at auckland.ac.nz> wrote:> On 30/11/14 14:16, John Sorkin wrote: >> >> I don't see a link that is labeled "unsubscribe". > > > <SNIP> > >>> On Nov 29, 2014, at 7:35 PM, Jeff Newmiller <jdnewmil at dcn.davis.CA.us> >> >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> In what way would that be unlike the link that is already there? > > > <SNIP> > >>> On November 29, 2014 4:09:29 PM PST, John Sorkin >> >> <jsorkin at grecc.umaryland.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Requests like this appear from time to time. Would it make sense to >>>> >>>> add a link to the bottom of the email messages generated by the mail >>>> program that is labeled and goes directly to the unsubscribe page? > > > Well, there is no "unsubscribe" page as such. The link given, i.e. > > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > > takes you to the primary help page. That provides a link to a (password > protected) page where you can handle all matters pertaining to your > r-help subscription, including unsubscribing. > > I suppose that it might be possible to provide a link taking one directly to > this second page, but: > > (1) It would add clutter (I'm sure we don't want to delete the link to the > primary help page). > > (2) The password protection might get complicated; I don't know about such > matters. > > (3) I don't think we want to waste time and resources helping people who are > too stupid and illiterate to find their way to the unsubscribe facility on > the basis of what is already provided. They shouldn't be > R users in the first place. One needs at least two grey cells to rub > together to deal with R. > > cheers, > > Rolf Turner > > -- > Rolf Turner > Technical Editor ANZJS > > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Any mailing list which respects its recipients makes unsubscribing as easy as possible. If users are having trouble doing so, it's clearly not easy enough. I think putting a directly link in every message is certainly the right thing to do. On 11/29/2014 09:14 PM, Rolf Turner wrote:> On 30/11/14 14:16, John Sorkin wrote: >> I don't see a link that is labeled "unsubscribe". > > <SNIP> > >>> On Nov 29, 2014, at 7:35 PM, Jeff Newmiller <jdnewmil at dcn.davis.CA.us> >> wrote: >>> >>> In what way would that be unlike the link that is already there? > > <SNIP> > >>> On November 29, 2014 4:09:29 PM PST, John Sorkin >> <jsorkin at grecc.umaryland.edu> wrote: >>>>> Requests like this appear from time to time. Would it make sense to >>>> add a link to the bottom of the email messages generated by the mail >>>> program that is labeled and goes directly to the unsubscribe page? > > Well, there is no "unsubscribe" page as such. The link given, i.e. > > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > > takes you to the primary help page. That provides a link to a (password > protected) page where you can handle all matters pertaining to your > r-help subscription, including unsubscribing. > > I suppose that it might be possible to provide a link taking one > directly to this second page, but: > > (1) It would add clutter (I'm sure we don't want to delete the link to > the primary help page). > > (2) The password protection might get complicated; I don't know about > such matters. > > (3) I don't think we want to waste time and resources helping people who > are too stupid and illiterate to find their way to the unsubscribe > facility on the basis of what is already provided. They shouldn't be > R users in the first place. One needs at least two grey cells to rub > together to deal with R. > > cheers, > > Rolf Turner >
To be fair, Rolf, they have already found difficulty and are trying to find
their way out of this torrent, and impeding their way is not in anyone's
interest.
John: I agree that adding the word "unsubscribe" to the footer would
probably help those lost enough to be mailing the list. The existing web page
does have that word on it, though.
Fabio: I was unaware of the unsubscribe header... looks interesting, though I
would be concerned that it seems like it might bypass the password protection
currently in place, making it susceptible to abuse. However, there seem to be
quite a lot of organizations using it so it may work better than my initial
impression tells me it does.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Newmiller The ..... ..... Go Live...
DCN:<jdnewmil at dcn.davis.ca.us> Basics: ##.#. ##.#. Live
Go...
Live: OO#.. Dead: OO#.. Playing
Research Engineer (Solar/Batteries O.O#. #.O#. with
/Software/Embedded Controllers) .OO#. .OO#. rocks...1k
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent from my phone. Please excuse my brevity.
On November 29, 2014 6:14:11 PM PST, Rolf Turner <r.turner at
auckland.ac.nz> wrote:>On 30/11/14 14:16, John Sorkin wrote:
>> I don't see a link that is labeled "unsubscribe".
>
><SNIP>
>
>>> On Nov 29, 2014, at 7:35 PM, Jeff Newmiller
><jdnewmil at dcn.davis.CA.us>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> In what way would that be unlike the link that is already there?
>
><SNIP>
>
>>> On November 29, 2014 4:09:29 PM PST, John Sorkin
>> <jsorkin at grecc.umaryland.edu> wrote:
>>>>> Requests like this appear from time to time. Would it make
sense
>to
>>>> add a link to the bottom of the email messages generated by the
>mail
>>>> program that is labeled and goes directly to the unsubscribe
page?
>
>Well, there is no "unsubscribe" page as such. The link given,
i.e.
>
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>
>takes you to the primary help page. That provides a link to a (password
>
>protected) page where you can handle all matters pertaining to your
>r-help subscription, including unsubscribing.
>
>I suppose that it might be possible to provide a link taking one
>directly to this second page, but:
>
>(1) It would add clutter (I'm sure we don't want to delete the link
to
>the primary help page).
>
>(2) The password protection might get complicated; I don't know about
>such matters.
>
>(3) I don't think we want to waste time and resources helping people
>who
>are too stupid and illiterate to find their way to the unsubscribe
>facility on the basis of what is already provided. They shouldn't be
>R users in the first place. One needs at least two grey cells to rub
>together to deal with R.
>
>cheers,
>
>Rolf Turner
On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Jeff Newmiller <jdnewmil at dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:> To be fair, Rolf, they have already found difficulty and are trying to find their way out of this torrent, and impeding their way is not in anyone's interest. > > John: I agree that adding the word "unsubscribe" to the footer would probably help those lost enough to be mailing the list. The existing web page does have that word on it, though. > > Fabio: I was unaware of the unsubscribe header... looks interesting, though I would be concerned that it seems like it might bypass the password protection currently in place, making it susceptible to abuse. However, there seem to be quite a lot of organizations using it so it may work better than my initial impression tells me it does.FYI, if you look at the raw email messages, they all have the following in the header: X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: "Main R Mailing List: Primary help" <r-help.r-project.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/options/r-help>, <mailto:r-help-request at r-project.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-help/> List-Post: <mailto:r-help at r-project.org> List-Help: <mailto:r-help-request at r-project.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help>, <mailto:r-help-request at r-project.org?subject=subscribe> Note that "List-Unsubscribe" field [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2369.html]. That does not seem to be enough to have Gmail add a "unsubscribe" button/link (which is indeed a useful UX feature). Google mention some more requirements in https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#unsub, particularly "'Precedence: bulk'", which I find on since mailing lists typically use "list" just as r-help does. I also found a mentioning on "DKIM key signature" being required [http://blog.mailchimp.com/gmails-new-unsubscribe-link-and-feedback-loop/]. So, not sure how easy it is to enable all this for the list(s) (which are handled by Mailman). My $.02 /Henrik> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jeff Newmiller The ..... ..... Go Live... > DCN:<jdnewmil at dcn.davis.ca.us> Basics: ##.#. ##.#. Live Go... > Live: OO#.. Dead: OO#.. Playing > Research Engineer (Solar/Batteries O.O#. #.O#. with > /Software/Embedded Controllers) .OO#. .OO#. rocks...1k > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sent from my phone. Please excuse my brevity. > > On November 29, 2014 6:14:11 PM PST, Rolf Turner <r.turner at auckland.ac.nz> wrote: >>On 30/11/14 14:16, John Sorkin wrote: >>> I don't see a link that is labeled "unsubscribe". >> >><SNIP> >> >>>> On Nov 29, 2014, at 7:35 PM, Jeff Newmiller >><jdnewmil at dcn.davis.CA.us> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> In what way would that be unlike the link that is already there? >> >><SNIP> >> >>>> On November 29, 2014 4:09:29 PM PST, John Sorkin >>> <jsorkin at grecc.umaryland.edu> wrote: >>>>>> Requests like this appear from time to time. Would it make sense >>to >>>>> add a link to the bottom of the email messages generated by the >>mail >>>>> program that is labeled and goes directly to the unsubscribe page? >> >>Well, there is no "unsubscribe" page as such. The link given, i.e. >> >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >> >>takes you to the primary help page. That provides a link to a (password >> >>protected) page where you can handle all matters pertaining to your >>r-help subscription, including unsubscribing. >> >>I suppose that it might be possible to provide a link taking one >>directly to this second page, but: >> >>(1) It would add clutter (I'm sure we don't want to delete the link to >>the primary help page). >> >>(2) The password protection might get complicated; I don't know about >>such matters. >> >>(3) I don't think we want to waste time and resources helping people >>who >>are too stupid and illiterate to find their way to the unsubscribe >>facility on the basis of what is already provided. They shouldn't be >>R users in the first place. One needs at least two grey cells to rub >>together to deal with R. >> >>cheers, >> >>Rolf Turner > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
I agree with this sentiment and suggestion. I can not see much of a downside to it, with the exception that most of these "unsophisticated" users will probably not even bother reading it. But then we would all be back in the current situation, not worse. Ranjan On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 21:58:23 -0500 listserve <tomuxiong at gmail.com> wrote:> Any mailing list which respects its recipients makes unsubscribing as > easy as possible. If users are having trouble doing so, it's clearly not > easy enough. > > I think putting a directly link in every message is certainly the right > thing to do. > > On 11/29/2014 09:14 PM, Rolf Turner wrote: > > On 30/11/14 14:16, John Sorkin wrote: > >> I don't see a link that is labeled "unsubscribe". > > > > <SNIP> > > > >>> On Nov 29, 2014, at 7:35 PM, Jeff Newmiller <jdnewmil at dcn.davis.CA.us> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> In what way would that be unlike the link that is already there? > > > > <SNIP> > > > >>> On November 29, 2014 4:09:29 PM PST, John Sorkin > >> <jsorkin at grecc.umaryland.edu> wrote: > >>>>> Requests like this appear from time to time. Would it make sense to > >>>> add a link to the bottom of the email messages generated by the mail > >>>> program that is labeled and goes directly to the unsubscribe page? > > > > Well, there is no "unsubscribe" page as such. The link given, i.e. > > > > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > > > > takes you to the primary help page. That provides a link to a (password > > protected) page where you can handle all matters pertaining to your > > r-help subscription, including unsubscribing. > > > > I suppose that it might be possible to provide a link taking one > > directly to this second page, but: > > > > (1) It would add clutter (I'm sure we don't want to delete the link to > > the primary help page). > > > > (2) The password protection might get complicated; I don't know about > > such matters. > > > > (3) I don't think we want to waste time and resources helping people who > > are too stupid and illiterate to find their way to the unsubscribe > > facility on the basis of what is already provided. They shouldn't be > > R users in the first place. One needs at least two grey cells to rub > > together to deal with R. > > > > cheers, > > > > Rolf Turner > > > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >-- Important Notice: This mailbox is ignored: e-mails are set to be deleted on receipt. Please respond to the mailing list if appropriate. For those needing to send personal or professional e-mail, please use appropriate addresses. ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!