I currently use R at work "under the radar", but there's a chance I could loose that access. I'd like to get our company to feel comfortable with open source and R in particular. Does anyone have any experience with their company's IT department and management that they would be willing to share? How does one get an all Microsoft shop on board with allowing users to user R? I know about the recent NY Times article and recent news. I'm afraid I may need some case studies or examples of what other companies have done. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Dan Viar Chesapeake, VA
This is a very broad question, and the answer is going to depend on your particular situation, which we are not privy to. I'll say two things. First, you should try to figure out why they would not want you to run R, so you can address those reasons specifically. Second, you might take a particular problem that you deal with, and specifically write out how R can make it easier, cheaper, more efficient to solve than the current solution. Are there really still all-MS shops around? Daniel Viar wrote:> I currently use R at work "under the radar", but there's a chance I > could loose that access. I'd like to get our company to feel > comfortable with open source and R in particular. Does anyone have > any experience with their company's IT department and management that > they would be willing to share? How does one get an all Microsoft > shop on board with allowing users to user R? I know about the recent > NY Times article and recent news. I'm afraid I may need some case > studies or examples of what other companies have done. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks > Dan Viar > Chesapeake, VA > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
Daniel Viar wrote:> I'd like to get our company to feel > comfortable with open sourceAnyone still denying, here in 2009, that open source offers serious business value is a dinosaur, doomed to extinction. Their cerebella have calcified. The balance tipped a decade ago. Just like the real dinosaurs, extinction will only be fast on a geological time scale. Don't expect your job to evaporate next year because they won't use open source. Just expect that over the coming decades to be routinely outcompeted by the mammals. Chances are, your company actually has embraced open source in some way. One facile argument is to ask if they use Google. Yes? Google uses Linux, MySQL, and yes, even R, so your company does too, if indirectly. Likely, some bit of open source has crept into your actual operation elsewhere besides your little R enclave.> How does one get an all Microsoft > shop on board with allowing users to user R?Proceed the same way you already are. It is as Gandhi said: "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Every revolution in corporate IT happened this way, including Microsoft's own rise to dominance. (Remember Big Blue?)
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Daniel Viar <dan.viar at gmail.com> wrote:> I currently use R at work "under the radar", but there's a chance I > could loose that access. I'd like to get our company to feel > comfortable with open source and R in particular. Does anyone have > any experience with their company's IT department and management that > they would be willing to share? How does one get an all Microsoft > shop on board with allowing users to user R? I know about the recent > NY Times article and recent news. I'm afraid I may need some case > studies or examples of what other companies have done.In many cases your IT department will feel secure with R if there's a company behind it to offer technical support and offer a "throat to choke" if problems arise. (Whether it's the former or the latter that is more significant depends on the company.) There are some companies out there that offer support subscriptions to R, including the one I work for. If you work in a regulated environment (such as clinical pharma with 21CFR11, or finance with Sarbanes-Oxley), there may also be some nervousness about whether R can be compliant. It almost certainly is, but it often needs to be validated in your own environment. I wrote about this recently (from the perspective of FDA validation) at http://blog.revolution-computing.com/2009/01/analyzing-clinical-trial-data-with-r.html . In many companies IT departments are getting comfortable with relying on FOSS applications, but the real successes (Linux, Apache, MySQL, ...) have come when there's a commercial company to back up the open source community. # David Smith -- David M Smith <david at revolution-computing.com> Director of Community, REvolution Computing www.revolution-computing.com Tel: +1 (206) 577-4778 x3203 (Seattle, USA)
Daniel Viar <dan.viar <at> gmail.com> writes:> > I currently use R at work "under the radar", but there's a chance I > could loose that access. I'd like to get our company to feel > comfortable with open source and R in particular. Does anyone have > any experience with their company's IT department and management that > they would be willing to share? How does one get an all Microsoft > shop on board with allowing users to user R? I know about the recent > NY Times article and recent news. I'm afraid I may need some case > studies or examples of what other companies have done. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks > Dan Viar > Chesapeake, VA > > ______________________________________________ > R-help <at> r-project.org mailing list > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > >Just my opinions from my own experience... Don't talk to just anyone in your IT department, but try to identify someone who a) has some authority/decision-making power; and b) is likely to be somewhat OSS knowledgable/tolerant/keen. Go through proper procedures. In my organisation, there is a specific process for approval of software. I filled in appropriate forms and provided supporting documentation such as: http://www.r-project.org/doc/R-FDA.pdf copy of the GPL and references such as http://www.groklaw.net/article.php? story=2008081313212422 R installation and administration manual NY Times article I also made futher points about the extensive use of R in peer-reviewed journals such as JSS, and the superiority of the email help list and archives over the support offered for most proprietary products (with specific examples). Most of this is to make it abundantly clear that you are talking about a quality, open-source product, not some small piece of freeware developed by an individual. I have found two main types of IT concerns. Firstly, they are appropriately concerned about licensing issues. You need to reinforce that, though free, it is licensed - under the GPL. Secondly, they may have concerns simply because it is not the existing/approved/supported norm in your organisation. I have found that it is important here to make it clear that you will not be expecting them to 'support' the software in the sense of helping you learn to use it (which is often the case for office-type software and its users in organisations). And if all else fails, and your organisation's policies refer to 'installing' software, you can always run it portably, even from an external drive (at least in a Windows environment). Ultimately, though, I think the thing that helped most to convince our IT department to let me try R was when they themselves had the nightmare of dealing with the licensing and accounts division of a certain well-known statistical package proprietor. Michael Bibo Queensland Health
2009/1/29 Daniel Viar <dan.viar at gmail.com>:> How does one get an all Microsoft > shop on board with allowing users to user R?An 'all Microsoft shop' is what exactly? There is nothing on your PC that isn't from Microsoft? That makes me think that you're either going to be forced to do your statistics in Excel or you're going to have to write everything from scratch in MS Visual Basic/C#/ASP/Bandwagon-of-the-month Language. $Deity have mercy upon your soul. MS don't make anything even *remotely* like R, and if your IT dept don't see that then get them fixed or fired. Now the argument between R and other proprietary stats packages (SPSS, SAS, Stata) is something completely different. But if the powers that be won't allow non-MS software, then those options are as closed off as R is to you. Barry
Daniel Viar wrote:> > I currently use R at work "under the radar", but there's a chance I > could loose that access. I'd like to get our company to feel > comfortable with open source and R in particular. Does anyone have > any experience with their company's IT department and management that > they would be willing to share? How does one get an all Microsoft > shop on board with allowing users to user R? I know about the recent > NY Times article and recent news. I'm afraid I may need some case > studies or examples of what other companies have done. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > >What alternative do they expect you to use? If they expect you to use Excel for statistics then its worth letting them know that this would be a very bad idea as there are many short-comings, some of which I've referenced at.. http://slack.ser.man.ac.uk/progs/stata/avoid_excel.html Neil -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-do-I-get-my-IT-department-to-%22bless%22-R--tp21739359p21746356.html Sent from the R help mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 1/30/09, Warren Young <warren at etr-usa.com> wrote:> > Could you please share a link to the NY Times article? > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/technology/business-computing/07program.html >Also do not miss the follow-up blog from the author, plus the the related comments [1]. Liviu [1] http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/r-you-ready-for-r/ . -- Do you know how to read? http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm Do you know how to write? http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail
It's just not that easy. A friend of mine at a large company whose name rhymes with "Maytheon" spent over 3 months trying to get approval from IT for a commercial database tool. IT departments tend to be empire-building fools, and extraordinarily paranoid to boot. At my parent company, whose name looks something like "Gorthrup Numman," they have an entire IT Division whose goal in life seems to be to make computer life hell for everyone else. When they say "Office2007" that's what every NGC employee gets no matter what. Anyone who has the temerity to run updates (even OS or Office) downloads on their own risks the threat of termination. I'm not kidding. So, this is rather OT for an R discussion group, but I wanted to add credence to the others who've been posting horror stories about the rules inside corporations. I have to say I can't figure out how the IT dept's havent' noticed that lots of these same employees WRITE software, and could easily do far more damage (intentional or not) to the network than a few updates or open-source packages ever could Carl <quote> ---------------- Neil Shephard <nshephard_at_gmail.com> What alternative do they expect you to use? If they expect you to use Excel for statistics then its worth letting them know that this would be a very bad idea as there are many short-comings, some of which I've referenced at.. http://slack.ser.man.ac.uk/progs/stata/avoid_excel.html
There has already been good discussion on this topic, but here are a couple of other things to think about: 1. is it your job to convince your IT department, or is it your job to convince your boss, and your boss's job to convince/dictate to the IT department (getting your boss on your side could be easier and very beneficial (or not depending on the boss)). 2. Why not do a simple cost analysis comparing what you do now using R compared to what it will cost if you do not use R, be honest in all the costs, but include how optional pieces will affect your productivity. I would start with a cost for a single license of S-PLUS (most similar to R out there), then include the annual license fee for S-PLUS. Do you only use R on your single work computer? Or do you use it at home/laptop/other computers? Include the cost for the additional licenses, or how your work would be impacted by only being able to use it when sitting at the one computer. Next, what packages do you use in R that are not available in S-PLUS currently? How often do you use them and for what? Include this information in the cost analysis, because any tools not available will either limit your productivity, take time for you to learn an alternative, or will require time/money for someone to convert them to work with S-PLUS (either you estimate your time needed, IT (how much time would it take them to get up to speed enough to do the conversion), or hiring an outside programmer (cost?)). List those things out with details, costs (needed and optional), and the effects of having or not having optional pieces. Also include discussions on the concerns that Stavros has mentioned (and any other that your IT department is likely to have). Present all of that to your boss and he/she may just become your advocate for blessing R (saving money can be more of a motivation than parts of the workflow that you see as important, but they don't understand). 3. Being a Microsoft shop, do they allow you to use MSExcel?, would they allow you to install a plug-in for Excel? (An interface and full R implementation are available as a plugin, this could be a back door for installing R that does not need a policy change). Hope this helps, -- Gregory (Greg) L. Snow Ph.D. Statistical Data Center Intermountain Healthcare greg.snow at imail.org 801.408.8111> -----Original Message----- > From: r-help-bounces at r-project.org [mailto:r-help-bounces at r- > project.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Viar > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 3:29 PM > To: r-help at r-project.org > Subject: [R] How do I get my IT department to "bless" R? > > I currently use R at work "under the radar", but there's a chance I > could loose that access. I'd like to get our company to feel > comfortable with open source and R in particular. Does anyone have > any experience with their company's IT department and management that > they would be willing to share? How does one get an all Microsoft > shop on board with allowing users to user R? I know about the recent > NY Times article and recent news. I'm afraid I may need some case > studies or examples of what other companies have done. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks > Dan Viar > Chesapeake, VA > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting- > guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
nashjc at uottawa.ca
2009-Feb-02 19:31 UTC
[R] How do I get my IT department to "bless" R?
I won't burden the list with copies of earlier posts -- all of us have experienced the frustration of dealing with folk who want to make their life easier by making ours difficult. However, I have noted that a few folk are starting to change attitudes. I was hired to give a training session last June to a fairly large unit in the Canadian government that realized a mix of Excel and SAS and SPSS and ... were leading to an unmaintainable mess of small applications needed to handle the information needed for core responsibilities. When an employee leaves a large spreadsheet that contains the analytic and prediction model, it is generally a VERY big job to maintain. The boss of the unit realized that small R scripts could do a lot of the work and that dataframes and spreadsheets are relatively easy to interchange if one avoids fancy features. Thus it was feasible to use spreadsheets for data entry -- reducing training costs and "I don't know R" etc., though with some risks -- and have some youngish new hires write the scripts to do the analysis and reports that were needed every few days. If the folk involved are reading this, I'll apologize in advance for over-simplifying. The central theme here is "economic", in that it is making life easier for all. John Nash
Rolf: I'm in the odd position of having run the modest IT department at my lab for five years, which (when I took it over) included my small statistics team, since split out. So I'm a gamekeeper turned poacher. Stavros wasn't wrong; these are all genuine issues for an IT manager. I can think of a couple of others, too. But the difference between a mere tyrant and a good IT manager (who may be a tyrant as well) is that the latter treats them as issues to be resolved if necessary, and the former as excuses to justify an entrenched position. A point that is probably worth making; if you're an IT manager and two or more packages can apparently do a user's job well, you would certainly see the _user_ as a tyrant if they insisted dogmatically on one over the other. There are probably R tyrants out there somewhere too. Steve E>>> Rolf Turner <r.turner at auckland.ac.nz> 02/02/2009 20:14 >>> >I would just like to say that in my very humble opinion Stavros's >reply was utter nonsense. It was the sort of excuse-making favoured >by tyrants since time immemorial.******************************************************************* This email and any attachments are confidential. Any use...{{dropped:8}}
I know on the website there are some pretty reputable sponsors of the software who at some stage donated some (presumably significant) amount of money out of thankfulness because some project worked and the software helped in some way. In order to push however the use of that software, might it not be just simply possible to start producing a List of corporate projects where the software was used with someone in the hierarchy saying: 1. It helped the project (we managed to reduce the complexity, it was more stable, flexible, ...) 2. We saved costs 3. The project actually was worth doing and wasn't just pasttime of an employee who just hasn't realized that he is in a company now, and not messing around at Uni Maybe also include cases where it didn't work 1. Key personel left the project, nobody to pick up the left stuff 2. Found out that it was the wrong tool (missing features, too complex, ...) And the moment one has a list including a couple of cases, ideally also a case similar to the stuff one wants to do, one can move onwards in ones own company: 'Our competitor / customer / great admired idol is doing it, why don't we ?' Chances are that such a list already has been started somewhere, it just hasn't been linked properly. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-do-I-get-my-IT-department-to-%22bless%22-R--tp21739359p21856976.html Sent from the R help mailing list archive at Nabble.com.