Nut upsuser - Nov 2024 - Eaton 5PX 3rd party batteries

On 11/12/2024 10:58 AM, Dan Langille via Nut-upsuser
wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> nut recently told me that the batteries need replacing in my Eaton
5PX2200RT (ups) and 5PXEBM48RT (external battery pack). According to my notes,
it has been just over 4 years since I installed them. Looking at on-line sales,
these seem to use batteries in a pre-packaged plastic shell. I don't recall
if that's what's in my units or not.
> 
> Do you have any experience with replacing / filling such shells with 3rd
party batteries?
I have never had to replace batteries in an Eaton anything.

I hope the following is both correct and useful.

I have replaced a fair number (probably around a hundred) batteries in 
other UPSes and devices (like a Fuji X-Ray machine that takes 16 
12VDC at 22AH batteries).  That's over 200VDC at a Significant current (the 
batteries claim 12V, but they are charged to over 13V).

I like batteries from RaionGroup.com or batterywholesale.com.

There are some other companies out there that I will never buy from again.

I try to get high-rate batteries, and they are harder to find.  As I 
recall, one should avoid "deep discharge" batteries for UPSes.  A deep
discharge battery is great for constant load stuff (like wheelchairs, 
golf carts, etc) but UPSes need "shorter" bursts of lots of power.

I read the spec sheets and order the heaviest batteries I can find. 
More lead means heavier batteries, and longer life.

I check each battery's initial voltage.  I have a note that says I 
expect at least 12.9V, but I haven't had a chance to verify this lately.

I check the spec'd net weight of the batteries with the actual weight of 
each arriving battery.

Every battery I have received from the above 2 vendors has had a gross 
weight clearly above the spec'd net weight of the battery.  Yay.

Every battery I have received from at least one other vendor has had a 
gross weight of at least 10% UNDER the spec'd net weight.  I have 
immediately called for an RMA of these, with varying degrees of success 
in their return.

Oh, at least one vendor has offered both "regular" and "high
rate"
batteries, I ordered the more expensive "high rate" batteries, and
what
was delivered was "regular" batteries.  When I asked about this, they 
said something like "we don't get the high rate batteries anymore"
and
they had no answer for why they still showed and charged me for the 
high-rate batteries when they knew they didn't actually have them.  The 
RMA process here was ... bad.

Anyway, when I have a set of replacement new batteries, I then:

- put each battery on a charger for several hours
- rotating thru the entire set at least twice
- then I take my bench supply with a (self-made) octopus cable
   with individually-fused "hot" wires, and starting at .1V over the
   average voltage, start adding batteries in parallel, waiting for the
   current draw to reduce to a trickle.  Once all of the batteries are
   connected in parallel and drawing a trickle, I start bumping the
   voltage by .1V until I get to either 13.5VDC (or the published
   trickle charge voltage) and I let this sit there for a day.

When all the batteries are "balanced" in the parallel string, I then 
install them into the battery tray(s) or directly into the unit.

Sometimes I will take the "old" batteries and run them thru the above 
process to see if they will "recondition".  Sometimes we will use
these
for lighting or other non-UPS tasks.

H

Sounds like great advice, thanks!

  Would you care to post it to the NUT wiki or in-source FAQ document (or
can I)?
  Probably the meaningfulness of specific company names is too
geographically and temporally limited, however the technical part is
universally applicable.

Jim


On Wed, Nov 13, 2024 at 6:08?AM Harlan Stenn via Nut-upsuser <
nut-upsuser at alioth-lists.debian.net> wrote:
> On 11/12/2024 10:58 AM, Dan Langille via Nut-upsuser wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > nut recently told me that the batteries need replacing in my Eaton
> 5PX2200RT (ups) and 5PXEBM48RT (external battery pack). According to my
> notes, it has been just over 4 years since I installed them. Looking at
> on-line sales, these seem to use batteries in a pre-packaged plastic shell.
> I don't recall if that's what's in my units or not.
> >
> > Do you have any experience with replacing / filling such shells with
3rd
> party batteries?
>
> I have never had to replace batteries in an Eaton anything.
>
> I hope the following is both correct and useful.
>
> I have replaced a fair number (probably around a hundred) batteries in
> other UPSes and devices (like a Fuji X-Ray machine that takes 16
> 12VDC at 22AH batteries).  That's over 200VDC at a Significant current
(the
> batteries claim 12V, but they are charged to over 13V).
>
> I like batteries from RaionGroup.com or batterywholesale.com.
>
> There are some other companies out there that I will never buy from again.
>
> I try to get high-rate batteries, and they are harder to find.  As I
> recall, one should avoid "deep discharge" batteries for UPSes.  A
deep
> discharge battery is great for constant load stuff (like wheelchairs,
> golf carts, etc) but UPSes need "shorter" bursts of lots of
power.
>
> I read the spec sheets and order the heaviest batteries I can find.
> More lead means heavier batteries, and longer life.
>
> I check each battery's initial voltage.  I have a note that says I
> expect at least 12.9V, but I haven't had a chance to verify this
lately.
>
> I check the spec'd net weight of the batteries with the actual weight
of
> each arriving battery.
>
> Every battery I have received from the above 2 vendors has had a gross
> weight clearly above the spec'd net weight of the battery.  Yay.
>
> Every battery I have received from at least one other vendor has had a
> gross weight of at least 10% UNDER the spec'd net weight.  I have
> immediately called for an RMA of these, with varying degrees of success
> in their return.
>
> Oh, at least one vendor has offered both "regular" and "high
rate"
> batteries, I ordered the more expensive "high rate" batteries,
and what
> was delivered was "regular" batteries.  When I asked about this,
they
> said something like "we don't get the high rate batteries
anymore" and
> they had no answer for why they still showed and charged me for the
> high-rate batteries when they knew they didn't actually have them.  The
> RMA process here was ... bad.
>
> Anyway, when I have a set of replacement new batteries, I then:
>
> - put each battery on a charger for several hours
> - rotating thru the entire set at least twice
> - then I take my bench supply with a (self-made) octopus cable
>    with individually-fused "hot" wires, and starting at .1V over
the
>    average voltage, start adding batteries in parallel, waiting for the
>    current draw to reduce to a trickle.  Once all of the batteries are
>    connected in parallel and drawing a trickle, I start bumping the
>    voltage by .1V until I get to either 13.5VDC (or the published
>    trickle charge voltage) and I let this sit there for a day.
>
> When all the batteries are "balanced" in the parallel string, I
then
> install them into the battery tray(s) or directly into the unit.
>
> Sometimes I will take the "old" batteries and run them thru the
above
> process to see if they will "recondition".  Sometimes we will use
these
> for lighting or other non-UPS tasks.
>
> H
>
> _______________________________________________
> Nut-upsuser mailing list
> Nut-upsuser at alioth-lists.debian.net
> https://alioth-lists.debian.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nut-upsuser
>
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Harlan Stenn via Nut-upsuser <nut-upsuser at alioth-lists.debian.net>
writes:
> I like batteries from RaionGroup.com or batterywholesale.com.
>
> There are some other companies out there that I will never buy from again.
I know people don't like to say negative things publically, but if you
could manage to say:

  I have in the past bought batteries from X, Y, and Z, raiongroup and
  batterywholesale.  My current practice is to order only from
  raiongroup and batterywholesale.

it would be somewhat helpful.  But I get it that you have tried a bunch
and have only 2 to say positive things about.

In particular, are you getting zeus from batterywholesale?  I am looking
at 12V 7Ah sized, and their 9 Ah, and it looks like zeus is the better
choice.

My own experience is that often batteries are not entirely right, both:
  - capacity somewhat below
  - a weak cell

I charge incoming batteries, and then do a controlled discharge at C/20h
(where C is nameplate capacity) using a West Mountain Radio (WMR)
CBA-II.  I then have a plot of V vs Ah.  Beware that WMR software is
seriously deficient because 1) it only runs on windows and 2) doesn't
run under wine.  So it requires keeping a spare computer with Windows to
use it.  I hear that newer versions have published protocols and perhaps
there is open source code to drive them.

  https://www.westmountainradio.com/cba.php

Often, I'll have a nice discharge curve, but say 6.5 Ah vs 7 Ah spec.  I
call that good -- that is a clue how bad things are.  And, my charging
could be a little under, so I don't get upset about this.

Sometimes, it looks good for a while and then sharply decreases around
e.g. 4 Ah.  This I interpret as 5 ok cells and 1 low-capacity/troubled
cell.  Such a battery is going to be trouble.

My two strategies are:

  - order 5 or 10 and sort.  put matched good batteries in UPS units.
    Use less good batteries in less demanding applications.* Last time I
    did this I got 5, and I think 4 were ok and 1 a bit low capacity but
    not broken.

  - order 10 from walmart.  test them.  return the bad ones to the
    store.   Last time I did this I think 8 were ok (> 6.3 Ah for 7!)
    and maybe 2 were either too low capacity or weak cell, and I just
    returned them.  I think I've also had ok batches.  I think the brand
    was UPG.

I note that while your tests are vastly better than almost everyone, you
haven't done controlled load testing so I think you don't really know if
your preferred vendors' batteries fare better than my UPG/walmart
experience.   However, last time I looked at walmart and thinking about
ordering, I was unhappy.

* I have about 200 Ah nominal of mostly-tired mostly-free-to-good-home
  batteries in parallel, solar charged, for ham use.  Some of them are
  wheelchair pulls, when the user perceived them to be diminished, and
  my testing shows about half nameplate capacity.  They are enormous,
  ~50 lbs for a 73 Ah, but multiple 35 Ah is still very useful in my
  application, vs someone who might be stranded if it failed.  Because
  they are in parallel any battery sees low current.  This strategy
  requires paying a fair bit of attention and I don't really recommend
  it!
> I try to get high-rate batteries, and they are harder to find.  As I
> recall, one should avoid "deep discharge" batteries for UPSes.  A
deep
> discharge battery is great for constant load stuff (like wheelchairs,
> golf carts, etc) but UPSes need "shorter" bursts of lots of
power.
There are two types of "sealed" batteries.   Both are properly called
"valve regulated lead acid" or VRLA.

  - Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM): electrolyte in fiberglass strands.
    rugged, high current.  Used for starting batteries in (larger) small
    engines and cars.   Most batteries are this type

  - GEL: electrolyte in a gel.  Cannot handle very high currents (C/1h
    bad, I think), either charging or discharging.  However, if you
    avoid that, cycle life more like 1000 than 500 for AGM.

The word "deep discharge" is usually used to contrast the above types
(as a group) with "starting" batteries.  Starting batteries, almost
always the "flooded" type (liquid electrolyte, some semi-sealed, some
where you can add water), are optimized for very high currents, but do
not do well if discharged more than a little.  Typical car batteries are
like this.

Anything not for starting a motor, where you intend to use the whole
capacity, should be AGM or GEL.   A UPS that is going to discharge in <1h --
which is pretty much all of them, should be AGM.

I would only consider GEL for a UPS if
  - the published and actual runtime is 4h or more
  - the manufacturer says GEL is ok (partially this is about charging)


re github wiki: how is planning for moving to a forge that doesn't use
open source code for AI training in violation of the license?  I am
growing increasingly cranky.

resending, sorry, I mangled the list address.

On Tue, Nov 12, 2024, at 11:49 PM, Harlan Stenn wrote:
> - put each battery on a charger for several hours
Do you have a recommendation for a battery charger? Or a list of features to
look for?
> Anyway, when I have a set of replacement new batteries, I then:
> 
> - put each battery on a charger for several hours
> - rotating thru the entire set at least twice
> - then I take my bench supply with a (self-made) octopus cable
>    with individually-fused "hot" wires, and starting at .1V over
the
>    average voltage, start adding batteries in parallel, waiting for the
>    current draw to reduce to a trickle.  Once all of the batteries are
>    connected in parallel and drawing a trickle, I start bumping the
>    voltage by .1V until I get to either 13.5VDC (or the published
>    trickle charge voltage) and I let this sit there for a day.
By individually-fused "hot" wires, I'm guessing that's a cable
with
connectors with a fuse inline.

This is reminding me of my changes to my home-office Eaton 5PX for
quieter fans.

The purpose of waiting for a day is for stabilization? Waiting for one
of them to die? Achieve a solid charge?
> When all the batteries are "balanced" in the parallel string, I
then
> install them into the battery tray(s) or directly into the unit.
The goal there is to get them all to the published trickle charge voltage
before installing them in the UPS.
> Sometimes I will take the "old" batteries and run them thru the
above
> process to see if they will "recondition".  Sometimes we will use
these
> for lighting or other non-UPS tasks.
Which makes me consider my next steps: disposal. There are a number of
commercial battery centers nearby. I'll start calling around before showing
up with 20 batteries. ;)

-- 
  Dan Langille
  dan at langille.org

On Tue, Nov 12, 2024, at 11:49 PM, Harlan Stenn wrote:

I just started shopping for my replacements:
> I like batteries from RaionGroup.com or batterywholesale.com.
Here is some free coincidental trivia.

I was a sysadmin for the server behind batterywholesale.com for about 10 years.
It was part time work. The couple behind the company have since sold the
business and retired. I'm still in touch with them from time to time.

-- 
  Dan Langille
  dan at langille.org

On Tue, Nov 12, 2024, at 11:49 PM, Harlan Stenn wrote:
> On 11/12/2024 10:58 AM, Dan Langille via Nut-upsuser wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> nut recently told me that the batteries need replacing in my Eaton
5PX2200RT (ups) and 5PXEBM48RT (external battery pack). According to my notes,
it has been just over 4 years since I installed them. Looking at on-line sales,
these seem to use batteries in a pre-packaged plastic shell. I don't recall
if that's what's in my units or not.
>> 
>> Do you have any experience with replacing / filling such shells with
3rd party batteries?
>
> I have never had to replace batteries in an Eaton anything.
>
> I hope the following is both correct and useful.
>
> I have replaced a fair number (probably around a hundred) batteries in 
> other UPSes and devices (like a Fuji X-Ray machine that takes 16 
> 12VDC at 22AH batteries).  That's over 200VDC at a Significant current
(the
> batteries claim 12V, but they are charged to over 13V).
>
> I like batteries from RaionGroup.com or batterywholesale.com.
>
> There are some other companies out there that I will never buy from again.
>
> I try to get high-rate batteries, and they are harder to find.  As I 
> recall, one should avoid "deep discharge" batteries for UPSes.  A
deep
> discharge battery is great for constant load stuff (like wheelchairs, 
> golf carts, etc) but UPSes need "shorter" bursts of lots of
power.
>
> I read the spec sheets and order the heaviest batteries I can find. 
> More lead means heavier batteries, and longer life.
My 16 batteries arrived last night.
> I check each battery's initial voltage.  I have a note that says I 
> expect at least 12.9V, but I haven't had a chance to verify this
lately.
They all measured 13V+ out of the box, but for one, which was 12.86 (close
enough)
Most were 
> I check the spec'd net weight of the batteries with the actual weight
of
> each arriving battery.
On the website, they say 5.73 pounds (5 lbs 11.6 oz).

Two of the batteries were 5 lbs 11 oz.  The rest were all 10, 9, or 8 oz.

See my bar chart at https://bsd.network/web/@dvl/113555334752647203
> Every battery I have received from the above 2 vendors has had a gross 
> weight clearly above the spec'd net weight of the battery.  Yay.
>
> Every battery I have received from at least one other vendor has had a 
> gross weight of at least 10% UNDER the spec'd net weight.  I have 
> immediately called for an RMA of these, with varying degrees of success 
> in their return.
10% in my case would be 5*16+11=91/10 = 9.1 ounces - My batteries are all within
3.3% of the advertised weight.

I've run one of them through the charger already.  It measures 13.25V.

I'll do that for four of them before attempting to replace the UPS
batteries.
Or perhaps, I'll leave this all until the weekend.

Thanks.

-- 
  Dan Langille
  dan at langille.org