On 11/12/2024 10:58 AM, Dan Langille via Nut-upsuser wrote:> Hello, > > nut recently told me that the batteries need replacing in my Eaton 5PX2200RT (ups) and 5PXEBM48RT (external battery pack). According to my notes, it has been just over 4 years since I installed them. Looking at on-line sales, these seem to use batteries in a pre-packaged plastic shell. I don't recall if that's what's in my units or not. > > Do you have any experience with replacing / filling such shells with 3rd party batteries?I have never had to replace batteries in an Eaton anything. I hope the following is both correct and useful. I have replaced a fair number (probably around a hundred) batteries in other UPSes and devices (like a Fuji X-Ray machine that takes 16 12VDC at 22AH batteries). That's over 200VDC at a Significant current (the batteries claim 12V, but they are charged to over 13V). I like batteries from RaionGroup.com or batterywholesale.com. There are some other companies out there that I will never buy from again. I try to get high-rate batteries, and they are harder to find. As I recall, one should avoid "deep discharge" batteries for UPSes. A deep discharge battery is great for constant load stuff (like wheelchairs, golf carts, etc) but UPSes need "shorter" bursts of lots of power. I read the spec sheets and order the heaviest batteries I can find. More lead means heavier batteries, and longer life. I check each battery's initial voltage. I have a note that says I expect at least 12.9V, but I haven't had a chance to verify this lately. I check the spec'd net weight of the batteries with the actual weight of each arriving battery. Every battery I have received from the above 2 vendors has had a gross weight clearly above the spec'd net weight of the battery. Yay. Every battery I have received from at least one other vendor has had a gross weight of at least 10% UNDER the spec'd net weight. I have immediately called for an RMA of these, with varying degrees of success in their return. Oh, at least one vendor has offered both "regular" and "high rate" batteries, I ordered the more expensive "high rate" batteries, and what was delivered was "regular" batteries. When I asked about this, they said something like "we don't get the high rate batteries anymore" and they had no answer for why they still showed and charged me for the high-rate batteries when they knew they didn't actually have them. The RMA process here was ... bad. Anyway, when I have a set of replacement new batteries, I then: - put each battery on a charger for several hours - rotating thru the entire set at least twice - then I take my bench supply with a (self-made) octopus cable with individually-fused "hot" wires, and starting at .1V over the average voltage, start adding batteries in parallel, waiting for the current draw to reduce to a trickle. Once all of the batteries are connected in parallel and drawing a trickle, I start bumping the voltage by .1V until I get to either 13.5VDC (or the published trickle charge voltage) and I let this sit there for a day. When all the batteries are "balanced" in the parallel string, I then install them into the battery tray(s) or directly into the unit. Sometimes I will take the "old" batteries and run them thru the above process to see if they will "recondition". Sometimes we will use these for lighting or other non-UPS tasks. H
Sounds like great advice, thanks! Would you care to post it to the NUT wiki or in-source FAQ document (or can I)? Probably the meaningfulness of specific company names is too geographically and temporally limited, however the technical part is universally applicable. Jim On Wed, Nov 13, 2024 at 6:08?AM Harlan Stenn via Nut-upsuser < nut-upsuser at alioth-lists.debian.net> wrote:> On 11/12/2024 10:58 AM, Dan Langille via Nut-upsuser wrote: > > Hello, > > > > nut recently told me that the batteries need replacing in my Eaton > 5PX2200RT (ups) and 5PXEBM48RT (external battery pack). According to my > notes, it has been just over 4 years since I installed them. Looking at > on-line sales, these seem to use batteries in a pre-packaged plastic shell. > I don't recall if that's what's in my units or not. > > > > Do you have any experience with replacing / filling such shells with 3rd > party batteries? > > I have never had to replace batteries in an Eaton anything. > > I hope the following is both correct and useful. > > I have replaced a fair number (probably around a hundred) batteries in > other UPSes and devices (like a Fuji X-Ray machine that takes 16 > 12VDC at 22AH batteries). That's over 200VDC at a Significant current (the > batteries claim 12V, but they are charged to over 13V). > > I like batteries from RaionGroup.com or batterywholesale.com. > > There are some other companies out there that I will never buy from again. > > I try to get high-rate batteries, and they are harder to find. As I > recall, one should avoid "deep discharge" batteries for UPSes. A deep > discharge battery is great for constant load stuff (like wheelchairs, > golf carts, etc) but UPSes need "shorter" bursts of lots of power. > > I read the spec sheets and order the heaviest batteries I can find. > More lead means heavier batteries, and longer life. > > I check each battery's initial voltage. I have a note that says I > expect at least 12.9V, but I haven't had a chance to verify this lately. > > I check the spec'd net weight of the batteries with the actual weight of > each arriving battery. > > Every battery I have received from the above 2 vendors has had a gross > weight clearly above the spec'd net weight of the battery. Yay. > > Every battery I have received from at least one other vendor has had a > gross weight of at least 10% UNDER the spec'd net weight. I have > immediately called for an RMA of these, with varying degrees of success > in their return. > > Oh, at least one vendor has offered both "regular" and "high rate" > batteries, I ordered the more expensive "high rate" batteries, and what > was delivered was "regular" batteries. When I asked about this, they > said something like "we don't get the high rate batteries anymore" and > they had no answer for why they still showed and charged me for the > high-rate batteries when they knew they didn't actually have them. The > RMA process here was ... bad. > > Anyway, when I have a set of replacement new batteries, I then: > > - put each battery on a charger for several hours > - rotating thru the entire set at least twice > - then I take my bench supply with a (self-made) octopus cable > with individually-fused "hot" wires, and starting at .1V over the > average voltage, start adding batteries in parallel, waiting for the > current draw to reduce to a trickle. Once all of the batteries are > connected in parallel and drawing a trickle, I start bumping the > voltage by .1V until I get to either 13.5VDC (or the published > trickle charge voltage) and I let this sit there for a day. > > When all the batteries are "balanced" in the parallel string, I then > install them into the battery tray(s) or directly into the unit. > > Sometimes I will take the "old" batteries and run them thru the above > process to see if they will "recondition". Sometimes we will use these > for lighting or other non-UPS tasks. > > H > > _______________________________________________ > Nut-upsuser mailing list > Nut-upsuser at alioth-lists.debian.net > https://alioth-lists.debian.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nut-upsuser >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://alioth-lists.debian.net/pipermail/nut-upsuser/attachments/20241113/2a5b7e7f/attachment-0001.htm>
Harlan Stenn via Nut-upsuser <nut-upsuser at alioth-lists.debian.net> writes:> I like batteries from RaionGroup.com or batterywholesale.com. > > There are some other companies out there that I will never buy from again.I know people don't like to say negative things publically, but if you could manage to say: I have in the past bought batteries from X, Y, and Z, raiongroup and batterywholesale. My current practice is to order only from raiongroup and batterywholesale. it would be somewhat helpful. But I get it that you have tried a bunch and have only 2 to say positive things about. In particular, are you getting zeus from batterywholesale? I am looking at 12V 7Ah sized, and their 9 Ah, and it looks like zeus is the better choice. My own experience is that often batteries are not entirely right, both: - capacity somewhat below - a weak cell I charge incoming batteries, and then do a controlled discharge at C/20h (where C is nameplate capacity) using a West Mountain Radio (WMR) CBA-II. I then have a plot of V vs Ah. Beware that WMR software is seriously deficient because 1) it only runs on windows and 2) doesn't run under wine. So it requires keeping a spare computer with Windows to use it. I hear that newer versions have published protocols and perhaps there is open source code to drive them. https://www.westmountainradio.com/cba.php Often, I'll have a nice discharge curve, but say 6.5 Ah vs 7 Ah spec. I call that good -- that is a clue how bad things are. And, my charging could be a little under, so I don't get upset about this. Sometimes, it looks good for a while and then sharply decreases around e.g. 4 Ah. This I interpret as 5 ok cells and 1 low-capacity/troubled cell. Such a battery is going to be trouble. My two strategies are: - order 5 or 10 and sort. put matched good batteries in UPS units. Use less good batteries in less demanding applications.* Last time I did this I got 5, and I think 4 were ok and 1 a bit low capacity but not broken. - order 10 from walmart. test them. return the bad ones to the store. Last time I did this I think 8 were ok (> 6.3 Ah for 7!) and maybe 2 were either too low capacity or weak cell, and I just returned them. I think I've also had ok batches. I think the brand was UPG. I note that while your tests are vastly better than almost everyone, you haven't done controlled load testing so I think you don't really know if your preferred vendors' batteries fare better than my UPG/walmart experience. However, last time I looked at walmart and thinking about ordering, I was unhappy. * I have about 200 Ah nominal of mostly-tired mostly-free-to-good-home batteries in parallel, solar charged, for ham use. Some of them are wheelchair pulls, when the user perceived them to be diminished, and my testing shows about half nameplate capacity. They are enormous, ~50 lbs for a 73 Ah, but multiple 35 Ah is still very useful in my application, vs someone who might be stranded if it failed. Because they are in parallel any battery sees low current. This strategy requires paying a fair bit of attention and I don't really recommend it!> I try to get high-rate batteries, and they are harder to find. As I > recall, one should avoid "deep discharge" batteries for UPSes. A deep > discharge battery is great for constant load stuff (like wheelchairs, > golf carts, etc) but UPSes need "shorter" bursts of lots of power.There are two types of "sealed" batteries. Both are properly called "valve regulated lead acid" or VRLA. - Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM): electrolyte in fiberglass strands. rugged, high current. Used for starting batteries in (larger) small engines and cars. Most batteries are this type - GEL: electrolyte in a gel. Cannot handle very high currents (C/1h bad, I think), either charging or discharging. However, if you avoid that, cycle life more like 1000 than 500 for AGM. The word "deep discharge" is usually used to contrast the above types (as a group) with "starting" batteries. Starting batteries, almost always the "flooded" type (liquid electrolyte, some semi-sealed, some where you can add water), are optimized for very high currents, but do not do well if discharged more than a little. Typical car batteries are like this. Anything not for starting a motor, where you intend to use the whole capacity, should be AGM or GEL. A UPS that is going to discharge in <1h -- which is pretty much all of them, should be AGM. I would only consider GEL for a UPS if - the published and actual runtime is 4h or more - the manufacturer says GEL is ok (partially this is about charging) re github wiki: how is planning for moving to a forge that doesn't use open source code for AI training in violation of the license? I am growing increasingly cranky.
resending, sorry, I mangled the list address. On Tue, Nov 12, 2024, at 11:49 PM, Harlan Stenn wrote:> - put each battery on a charger for several hoursDo you have a recommendation for a battery charger? Or a list of features to look for?> Anyway, when I have a set of replacement new batteries, I then: > > - put each battery on a charger for several hours > - rotating thru the entire set at least twice > - then I take my bench supply with a (self-made) octopus cable > with individually-fused "hot" wires, and starting at .1V over the > average voltage, start adding batteries in parallel, waiting for the > current draw to reduce to a trickle. Once all of the batteries are > connected in parallel and drawing a trickle, I start bumping the > voltage by .1V until I get to either 13.5VDC (or the published > trickle charge voltage) and I let this sit there for a day.By individually-fused "hot" wires, I'm guessing that's a cable with connectors with a fuse inline. This is reminding me of my changes to my home-office Eaton 5PX for quieter fans. The purpose of waiting for a day is for stabilization? Waiting for one of them to die? Achieve a solid charge?> When all the batteries are "balanced" in the parallel string, I then > install them into the battery tray(s) or directly into the unit.The goal there is to get them all to the published trickle charge voltage before installing them in the UPS.> Sometimes I will take the "old" batteries and run them thru the above > process to see if they will "recondition". Sometimes we will use these > for lighting or other non-UPS tasks.Which makes me consider my next steps: disposal. There are a number of commercial battery centers nearby. I'll start calling around before showing up with 20 batteries. ;) -- Dan Langille dan at langille.org
On Tue, Nov 12, 2024, at 11:49 PM, Harlan Stenn wrote: I just started shopping for my replacements:> I like batteries from RaionGroup.com or batterywholesale.com.Here is some free coincidental trivia. I was a sysadmin for the server behind batterywholesale.com for about 10 years. It was part time work. The couple behind the company have since sold the business and retired. I'm still in touch with them from time to time. -- Dan Langille dan at langille.org