On Mon, Jul 14, 2003 at 10:47:24AM -0600, Jack Moffitt wrote:> > - Most listeners will have to upgrade to a new client or > > install a plugin. > > I don't see a way around this in the general case, until Ogg is so > widely used that it would be a bad business idea not to support it. ICompletely agree. I know it's a chicken-and-egg thing, and I am competely sympathetic--it's just the "Welcome to the 21st Century" attitude of the previous poster that irked me. Things are not so cut-and-dried for those of us trying to make our audio accessible to as many people as possible, with the minimum hassle and maximum quality.> That said, we are hoping to have RealPlayer auto-update support in the > near future. [snip]I just returned from OSCON, and went to a talk by an engineer from RealNetworks. She talked about how simple it was to integrate Ogg Vorbis support into the Helix Server / Producer framework, which you can now download and build from CVS. Of course they were plugging their semi-open platform, and sadly hadn't even thought about taking the next step to stream it, or receive it in their client--only static encoding to files right now. Your name actually came up when I asked her about streaming, although I wasn't clear what she thought you were doing in this regard. iTunes kicks major bootie, and it is a shame that they have locked up whatever streaming API must exist. Come on, Apple! And WRT WinAMP 3--maybe I'm just getting lucky. If I hack my icecast 2 server to emit "application/x-ogg" as the mime type, it seems to play back fine without locking up. But I realize WinAMP 3 should and will go the way of the dodo. I'm just not sure how to tell folks in the interim "Downgrade to WinAMP 2.91." Thanks, Jack. Keep up the great work. Ogg deserves to take over-- the quality of our low-bitrate (~50Kbps forced VBR) test stream is nothing short of stunning. Matt -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 233 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/icecast/attachments/20030714/801a5110/part.pgp
Actually I think there is already allot of mainstream support for the format? In fact many large Gaming developers including EA and Sierra use the format to drive audio in their gamning - there is allot of hardware supporting the format as well and many player solutions in place that support it - However the issue of most concern to me is although for localised encoding and "Playback" Ogg is doing great - There still apears to be a lack of supporting applications and devices for the Streaming market. My gauge of that however is just as you said Jack - it's a matter of time. Bryan Payne Spacial Audio Solutions 806-549-1085 www.spacialaudio.com www.audiorealm.com Confidentiality Note: The information contained in this email and document(s)attached are for the exclusive use of the addressee and may contain confidential, privileged and non-disclosable information. If the recipient of this email is not the addressee, such recipient is strictly prohibited from reading, photocopying, distribution or otherwise using this email or its contents in any way. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Moffitt" <jack@xiph.org> To: <icecast@xiph.org> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [icecast] ices 0.3 released <p>> > - Most listeners will have to upgrade to a new client or> > install a plugin. > > I don't see a way around this in the general case, until Ogg is so > widely used that it would be a bad business idea not to support it. I > think it will eventually happen, but it will take time (it took ~ 4-5 > years for MP3 to achieve this). > > That said, we are hoping to have RealPlayer auto-update support in the > near future. We also hope to have some kind of simple to install WMP > integration (perhaps via ActiveX?). iTunes and Quicktime seem to unable > to support Ogg playback, and it looks like it will be quite a while > before we get streaming in Apple's tools. All of the other players I'm > aware of pretty much already support Ogg. > > > - Most WinAMPers connect with v.3, which won't work with ogg > > principally because the icecast developers make no concessions > > for its mistaken mime-typing. > > What? Last I checked, the ogg plugin for winamp 3 threadlocked just > after connect. As far as I know, any bugs there are not our fault. If > they are, we'd appreciate a detailed description on icecast-dev. > > > - Mac users have to give up iTunes and install Whamb. > > Blame Apple. Quicktime doesn't support VBR audio playback (or at least > not the type that we need). Also, all streaming in iTunes is handled > internally, and there is no public API for this. Nor is there a public > API for supporting Ogg directly in iTunes (as opposed to via Quicktime). > Several developers have spent a lot of time trying, and we've had next > to zero success. > > > - Effectively no hardware device support. > > This is just wrong, and getting more so. See > http://wiki.xiph.org/VorbisHardware. > > > I realize all this is changing, and I'm doing whatever I can to > > get it there, but you can only force new standards and technologies > > on people if you're Steve Jobs. Others should be as accomodating > > as possible. > > We're trying to be accomodating. This is why icecast supports mp3 and > ogg formats (as was always planned) so that people have a nice easy > upgrade path. It will take people producing content in Ogg for people > to demand content in Ogg... it's all a big catch-22, and we appreciate > your efforts to help out. > > jack. > --- >8 ---- > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to'icecast-request@xiph.org'> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. >--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
> - Most listeners will have to upgrade to a new client or > install a plugin.I don't see a way around this in the general case, until Ogg is so widely used that it would be a bad business idea not to support it. I think it will eventually happen, but it will take time (it took ~ 4-5 years for MP3 to achieve this). That said, we are hoping to have RealPlayer auto-update support in the near future. We also hope to have some kind of simple to install WMP integration (perhaps via ActiveX?). iTunes and Quicktime seem to unable to support Ogg playback, and it looks like it will be quite a while before we get streaming in Apple's tools. All of the other players I'm aware of pretty much already support Ogg.> - Most WinAMPers connect with v.3, which won't work with ogg > principally because the icecast developers make no concessions > for its mistaken mime-typing.What? Last I checked, the ogg plugin for winamp 3 threadlocked just after connect. As far as I know, any bugs there are not our fault. If they are, we'd appreciate a detailed description on icecast-dev.> - Mac users have to give up iTunes and install Whamb.Blame Apple. Quicktime doesn't support VBR audio playback (or at least not the type that we need). Also, all streaming in iTunes is handled internally, and there is no public API for this. Nor is there a public API for supporting Ogg directly in iTunes (as opposed to via Quicktime). Several developers have spent a lot of time trying, and we've had next to zero success.> - Effectively no hardware device support.This is just wrong, and getting more so. See http://wiki.xiph.org/VorbisHardware.> I realize all this is changing, and I'm doing whatever I can to > get it there, but you can only force new standards and technologies > on people if you're Steve Jobs. Others should be as accomodating > as possible.We're trying to be accomodating. This is why icecast supports mp3 and ogg formats (as was always planned) so that people have a nice easy upgrade path. It will take people producing content in Ogg for people to demand content in Ogg... it's all a big catch-22, and we appreciate your efforts to help out. jack. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 05:28:12PM -0400, Arc wrote:> On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 02:27:01PM -0700, Dan Sully wrote: > > > > I quite agree - it's frustrating to be able to use software that's > > almost there, then have all the development move to a format that 90% > > of the applications/embedded systems don't yet support. > > I'm sorry, but >90% of software does support Ogg.One thing that is *not* accelerating the adoption of ogg is this kind of attitude. I run an online radio station. We're drooling to move to ogg, but there are major tradeoffs: - Most listeners will have to upgrade to a new client or install a plugin. - Most WinAMPers connect with v.3, which won't work with ogg principally because the icecast developers make no concessions for its mistaken mime-typing. - Mac users have to give up iTunes and install Whamb. - Effectively no hardware device support. I realize all this is changing, and I'm doing whatever I can to get it there, but you can only force new standards and technologies on people if you're Steve Jobs. Others should be as accomodating as possible. <p>> Welcome to the 21st century. Welcome...to the real world. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 233 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/icecast/attachments/20030714/2f22ddcf/part.pgp
There is something called ethics. Matt Boersma wrote:> On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 05:28:12PM -0400, Arc wrote: > >>On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 02:27:01PM -0700, Dan Sully wrote: >> >>> I quite agree - it's frustrating to be able to use software that's >>> almost there, then have all the development move to a format that 90% >>> of the applications/embedded systems don't yet support. >> >>I'm sorry, but >90% of software does support Ogg. > > > One thing that is *not* accelerating the adoption of ogg is this > kind of attitude. I run an online radio station. We're drooling > to move to ogg, but there are major tradeoffs: > - Most listeners will have to upgrade to a new client or > install a plugin.<p> -- Michael H. Collins http://linuxlink.com --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.