On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Joshua Vickery wrote:> Great, so should we file with SoundExchange or wait for the RIAA to pick > a rate?Yes, you are supposed to file with the RIAA (SE as you suggest?). Period, end of story. Jwz covers this on his site IIRC.> Even if they insisted on collecting $0.004 per performance I don't think > we have even 100000 "performances" a year. Say 20 listeners a day, each hears > as many as 10 songs, we broadcast for about 180 days a year, > 20x10x180*$0.004 = $140. We are not talking big bucks here, it certainly > does not seems like reason to stop webcasting.I've not heard anything this low in cost. Considering the royalty rate is roughly 6-8 cents (USD) ($0.06) and it's been awhile since I've dealt w/ those numbers, I would expect the RIAA to come in no less than those amounts. I fully expect the rates to be high enough to quash most of the broadcasters we have today. Especially in today's market.> I am not an administrator, I was told by the station manner that we were > exempt from these fees because we are such a small radio station, we don't > make any money, and we play public service announcements. Maybe I was > misinformed.I've not heard of any exceptions granted to any radio stations, profit or not. The fact of the matter is that the artists have to be paid, profit station or not. The fact of the matter is, the station, even though it is not for profit (or non-profit) is still profiting from the artists works. I believe most University and College agreements cover campus stations. I'll be emailing a friend of mine who worked for both stations at my College to find out what he knows.> Well, we have a lot of lawyers, but its quite possible that we have it wrong, > I'll see what the advisor says at the meeting, and I'll bring a printout > of jwz's page.Good move.> We do have money to spend on various things, seems a pitty that we need to > pay for something that we already have permission to broadcast.That's just it. You may own the copy, but broadcast (in the traditional sense) and via the web are not extensions of that ownership. Case in point, Station buys Artist foo's disc and the artist is compenstated at x rate. Artist foo gets played n times. Does it make sense that artist foo is only compensated at rate x? No. ASCAP,BMI, and SESAC receieve fees from the stations so that artist foo is compensated to a certain extent for n number of plays. That said, ASCAP and BMI determine the royalty payments pretty much the same, SESAC has their own formula for determining the payments. Again, your purchase of music grants you only certain rights, and the RIAA is trying to see to it that those rights are further restricted. DMCA is one, there is additional legislation being considered to further restrict US consumer freedoms. Sean... -- WWJD? JWRTFM. -ASO/. _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ KG4NRC www.rimboy.com <-- Your source for the crap you know you need. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Jack Moffitt wrote:> > =================================================================> > hey josh, > > i talked to [faculty advisor] today and was told we must stop our online > > streaming. reasons for this rash decision involve around a new law that > > was put in place over the summer saying that stations who broadcast online > > have to pay royalties, but the amount to be paid has yet to be specified. > > First off the DMCA was enacted in 1998. I believe you are also exempt > for it if you also broadcast over-the-air. _That_ part might have > changed, as certainly the RIAA will be after money from traditional > labels.Everything that I've come across and it is my understanding is that traditional radio stations are not exempt if they broadcast via the web. In short, the RIAA and the labels it represents are greedy individuals and will take their money whereever they can get it. If the money is green they want it. I believe it is AFTRA that has raised a stink about webcasting commercials, many stations have either pulled their webcasts or have silenced their webcasts when AFTRA artists provide the voice over. This in particular applies to national ads, ie for GM, IBM, or some other major company w/ a nationwide push. The point is that don't discount the RIAA from broadcast stations w/ a web broadcast.> A few months? It's been going on for years, and no one is sure when it > will end. It's likely not to for a good long while still. There was a > wired article about the rates being discussed. You might want to look > that up.In short, anyone broadcasting RIAA artists via the web are required to register *NOW*. They have yet to determine the rate / fee structure, but failure to register because the rates are not in place is not an excuse. Plan on them making you pay pro-actively once the fees are decided upon. Failure to do so will put you in greater financial jeopardy.> > Now, from my inderstanding the the DMCA and recent events, it is possible > > that we will be made to pay some royalties to the record labels. However, > > we are a very small radio station with a very small webcasting audiance. We > > don't pay any royalties to broadcast over the air. > > Then in other words, you're stealing music even for your online > broadcast. You _must_ pay ASCAP, BMI, and/or SESAC in order to > broadcast _anything_ over _any_ medium. If you're not paying that, then > you are in dangerous trouble of litigation from those companies. They > can and will go after you. hell, they sued the girl scouts and won for > them singing around campfires.It depends. That was my initial reaction, however upon giving it some thought, it already might be covered by the University license. Definately consult with the University lawyers and make sure that your ASCAP/BMI/SESAC agreement covers your college station. As I recall, our station was covered under the University's agreement, but then again we already had an NPR affiliated Jazz station on campus before our student run station went on the air.> DMCA royalties go straight to the fucking big five labels. Artists will > probably never see this money.Agreed. And the artists are already taking it up the ass with the sales of CD's.> This is basically the same type of license > as if you would be pressing and selling CDs. This is quite simply an > internet tax.I've never looked at it that way, but tis true. An Internet tax that lines the pockets of massive corportate conglomerates who only care about their stock options.> On the air stations don't have to deal with the DMCA and, at > least to my knowledge, do they have to deal with it even when they > broadcast online.Again, I'm not sure. I'd imagine the RIAA is going to cover their bases on this one. They've been pissed off long enough that they've been unable to obtain money from the broadcast stations (ruling long ago) and this is their way (IMO) of getting back.> Technology royalties for MP3 (if you are using that and not Vorbis), are > $15k a year minimum and some percent of revenue if your station > generates revenue (do you sell ads?).Generally charters of college stations cannot sell ads. YMMV. However, mp3 streaming is going to die once Thompson and Fraunhoffer start bullying people.> Sounds like you are in a bad position, as you're not paying the correct > royalties anyway, and if you push the situation, they are likely to just > shut it all off. Explain the royalty situation. Show him jwz's page on > broadcasting.I agree, make sure you cover all the bases and definately take a look at jwz's page. Again, it has been my experience that most Universities pick up the tab on on the PRO's, I don't ever remember our station management having a discussion regarding budgeting for the PRO's (I was a PD at one time). YMMV, IANAL, Drive Safely. Sean... -- WWJD? JWRTFM. -ASO/. _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ KG4NRC www.rimboy.com <-- Your source for the crap you know you need. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
> Everything that I've come across and it is my understanding is that > traditional radio stations are not exempt if they broadcast via the > web. In short, the RIAA and the labels it represents are greedy > individuals and will take their money whereever they can get it. If the > money is green they want it.Great, so should we file with SoundExchange or wait for the RIAA to pick a rate? I'm emailing sound exchange, I think it would be great if they charged us %15 of our gross revenue, hell I would gladly pay them %100 of $0. Even if they insisted on collecting $0.004 per performance I don't think we have even 100000 "performances" a year. Say 20 listeners a day, each hears as many as 10 songs, we broadcast for about 180 days a year, 20x10x180*$0.004 = $140. We are not talking big bucks here, it certainly does not seems like reason to stop webcasting.> > Then in other words, you're stealing music even for your online > > broadcast. You _must_ pay ASCAP, BMI, and/or SESAC in order to > > broadcast _anything_ over _any_ medium. If you're not paying that, then > > you are in dangerous trouble of litigation from those companies. They > > can and will go after you. hell, they sued the girl scouts and won for > > them singing around campfires. > > It depends. That was my initial reaction, however upon giving it some > thought, it already might be covered by the University > license. Definately consult with the University lawyers and make sure > that your ASCAP/BMI/SESAC agreement covers your college station. As I > recall, our station was covered under the University's agreement, but then > again we already had an NPR affiliated Jazz station on campus before our > student run station went on the air.I am not an administrator, I was told by the station manner that we were exempt from these fees because we are such a small radio station, we don't make any money, and we play public service announcements. Maybe I was misinformed.> > Technology royalties for MP3 (if you are using that and not Vorbis), are > > $15k a year minimum and some percent of revenue if your station > > generates revenue (do you sell ads?). > > Generally charters of college stations cannot sell ads. YMMV. However, > mp3 streaming is going to die once Thompson and Fraunhoffer start bullying > people.Yes, it certainly seems like it is time to switch to Vorbis now. Sigh, and I just had liveice and icecast working so well too.> > Sounds like you are in a bad position, as you're not paying the correct > > royalties anyway, and if you push the situation, they are likely to just > > shut it all off. Explain the royalty situation. Show him jwz's page on > > broadcasting.Well, we have a lot of lawyers, but its quite possible that we have it wrong, I'll see what the advisor says at the meeting, and I'll bring a printout of jwz's page.> Again, it has been my experience that most Universities pick up the tab on > on the PRO's, I don't ever remember our station management having a > discussion regarding budgeting for the PRO's (I was a PD at one > time). YMMV, IANAL, Drive Safely.We do have money to spend on various things, seems a pitty that we need to pay for something that we already have permission to broadcast. -- Joshua Vickery Grinnell College 14-21 Grinnell IA, 50112 vickeryj@grinnell.edu --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.