Icecast dev - Aug 2004 - [Interopcast-general] about translating documentation, but not only documentation.

> The work you sounds very interesting though. Would love to see better
> support for MP3 in IceCast2 though...
>
What specifically are you missing in icecast2 with respect to mp3 streaming? I 
thought it was fairly complete, I haven't heard of anything being missing. 

Mike

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On Friday 01 August 2003 18:53, Arnaud Ebalard wrote:
> >User/Admin documentation, on the other hand, is something that we
> > desperately need. I really do want to try and integrate the
documentation
> > you and your students have written, but it's difficult - you
haven't
> > exactly gone to a lot of effort to send the icecast developers
patches.
> > It's also (taking a quick look at your cvs repository) looking
quite
> > difficult to just mass-merge everything from your sources, since
you've
> > reorganised everything.
> >
> >I'm _very_ interested in getting your documentation into mainline
icecast,
> > and merging back those code changes you've made that are
appropriate.
>
> We commented our sources and made documentation (user & developper) on
> what we
> wrote. I understand it is difficult to merge our changes into your codes :
>
> -  Format module and buffer module (now known as streambuf) were totaly
> rewritten in
> order to add new capabilities, modularity and improve performances.
It's
> (I think) easier
> to add new ogg formats because, there's a recognition of ogg
> encapsulated format which
> transparently toggle to the good plugin function (speex, vorbis (but we
> could easily add
> fLaC, theora, ...)). The new streambuf module works was rewritten to
> allow less
> memory allocations and reallocations
What new capabilities were added by these changes? The format handling was 
already quite modular. Splitting out ogg-encapsulated-format handling is a 
good idea - it was always planned, but (because there are, as yet, no 
streamers that will send non-vorbis ogg formats to icecast) we never 
implemented it.

Replacing the refbuf module with your 'streambuf' is not neccesarily a
win. It
changes the behaviour quite significantly (i.e. it's not purely a
performance
improvement) - my choice there would have been to optimise refbuf for that 
particular usage (specifically, skipping some of the unneccesary locking, and 
performing allocation out of a shared pool). I never did that because 
profiling showed that these functions weren't having a significant 
performance impact.
>
> -  Source and Slave modules have been remodularised (does this word
> exist?).
In what ways? Since you've completely reorganised/moved everything, it's
very
difficult to see what changes have been made (and even harder to reintegrate 
any of them) - if you give a clear description of what you've changed and
why
it's worth doing it that way, it gives us much more of an incentive to try 
and merge your changes.
>
> -  Three of us worked on the new IcecastAdmin part and they wish to
> continue their work
> in september. The IcecastAdmin part is at the moment a standalone
> process that listen for
> securised connections (OpenSSL) from browsers and allow the client to
> modify the
> XML configuration file of Icecast. It could then merge into Icecast as a
> thread and be used
> to make hot securised modifications to the Icecast server.
Adding in SSL support for the admin interface is very interesting, but I'm 
unsure from this paragraph why theyour admin program is a seperate process, 
and not part of the existing admin interface.
>
> There is another possibility if you could find some time to spend on it
>
> : take our version, try
>
> to add the main patches from last months and make it available to people
> for tests. If this
> give good results, you could take the time to add some of our changes.
> It's only an idea, but
> it could allow you to see if our changes are interesting and valuables
> things or not.
Unfortunately, because you've reorganised so much of the sources (even where
you haven't made substantive changes) taking any patches out from your 
sources is extremely difficult. Perhaps you'd care to contribute some 
individual patches - that's the way open source development is usually done.

Mike

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Michael Smith wrote:
>On Thursday 31 July 2003 10:56, Pierre Jarillon wrote:
>  
>
>>First, can you test interopcast ? On the CVS
>>http://savannah.nongnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/interopcast/ENSEIRB/icecast/icec
>>ast/ See http://savannah.nongnu.org/cvs/?group=interopcast
>>
>>interopcast is an improvement of icecast2. We wrote to the author but he
>>doesn't reply to the last mails and don't use the job we did.
>>    
>>
>
>I'm sorry for not replying to your mail - I moved recently, around the
time
>you were corresponding with me, and didn't have regular internet access
for a
>while (and still don't at home, which is where all my old mail is...)
>
>My intent was definately not to ignore you and your contributions - if you
got
>that impression, I'm very sorry.
>  
>
Ok, but the messages have been sent to the mailing list. I hope you are 
not the only one
on that list. Someone else could have given us an answer, or at least, 
comments about
the sources.
>>We don't wish a fork, but I fear to make it necessary.
>>I am sure that Michael Smith don't like to write a documentation as
>>he don't like comments in the sources. So, you can translate the
>>documentation.
>>    
>>
>
>I think that's rather unfair. Yes, I don't particularly enjoy
writing
>documentation (I have pretty limited time at the moment to spend on icecast,
>and documentation isn't my (personal) top priority), but "don't
like comments
>in the sources" is simply untrue and totally unsubstantiated.
>
We didn't find comments on the sources when we entered into it. If you 
watched at our
code, there's many comments in order to help future developpers not to 
spend weeks to
understand what the codes does.
>More complete function documentation in the icecast sources would be a 
>worthwhile goal, as it would help new developers getting up to speed - but 
>this is the first time I've heard any complaints about the degree to
which
>the code itself is commented.
>  
>
Sorry, but as new developper on the project at the beginning, and 
without any kind
of developper documentation, it was the way we saw it.
>User/Admin documentation, on the other hand, is something that we
desperately
>need. I really do want to try and integrate the documentation you and your 
>students have written, but it's difficult - you haven't exactly gone
to a lot
>of effort to send the icecast developers patches. It's also (taking a
quick
>look at your cvs repository) looking quite difficult to just mass-merge 
>everything from your sources, since you've reorganised everything.
>
>I'm _very_ interested in getting your documentation into mainline
icecast, and
>merging back those code changes you've made that are appropriate.
>  
>
We commented our sources and made documentation (user & developper) on 
what we
wrote. I understand it is difficult to merge our changes into your codes :

-  Format module and buffer module (now known as streambuf) were totaly 
rewritten in
order to add new capabilities, modularity and improve performances. It's 
(I think) easier
to add new ogg formats because, there's a recognition of ogg 
encapsulated format which
transparently toggle to the good plugin function (speex, vorbis (but we 
could easily add
fLaC, theora, ...)). The new streambuf module works was rewritten to 
allow less
memory allocations and reallocations

-  Source and Slave modules have been remodularised (does this word exist?).

-  Three of us worked on the new IcecastAdmin part and they wish to 
continue their work
in september. The IcecastAdmin part is at the moment a standalone 
process that listen for
securised connections (OpenSSL) from browsers and allow the client to 
modify the
XML configuration file of Icecast. It could then merge into Icecast as a 
thread and be used
to make hot securised modifications to the Icecast server.

-To be honest, the MP3 support was not our main goal so we rewrite the 
module to support
MP3 streams but no tests weremade on it.
The main problem we encountered was the difficulty to find an MP3 
streamer that was
compatible with Icecast2.

<p>At the end, our modifications were stable. Our version of Icecast works
for Ogg streams from
ices and can be heard by Ogg123, mplayer, xmms ...
As I said, no tests were made on MP3 (but MP3 was not developped to be 
streamed, as you
know...)
We added support for ogg speex streams but we didn't found any available 
streamer, but the
structure of the stream is the same as for vorbis. When an Icecast2 
streamer will be available,
it would only need minor fixes.
To add fLaC support, it could now be as easy as for speex except for 
metadata that should be
extended (not a big work).
YP has to be tested : no changes were made, but with remodularisation ...
...

There is another possibility if you could find some time to spend on it 
: take our version, try
to add the main patches from last months and make it available to people 
for tests. If this
give good results, you could take the time to add some of our changes. 
It's only an idea, but
it could allow you to see if our changes are interesting and valuables 
things or not.

I probably forgot some things. Feel free to ask your questions. Another 
contributors on
interopcast should also feel free to add comments to my mail. (I don't 
mean comments
on my english ;-)

Cordially,

Arnaud Ebalard.

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> -  Three of us worked on the new IcecastAdmin part and they wish to 
> continue their work
> in september. The IcecastAdmin part is at the moment a standalone 
> process that listen for
> securised connections (OpenSSL) from browsers and allow the client to 
> modify the
> XML configuration file of Icecast. It could then merge into Icecast as a 
> thread and be used
> to make hot securised modifications to the Icecast server.
I'm one of the "three of us".

Right now, we made some stuff (although IcecastAdmin is not currently 
usable). Basically, it consists of both a web server and an admin site. 
The problem we met is that not all the browsers send back our server the 
content of the HTML table fields (in fact, we do receive incorrect HTTP 
post requests and we don't know why) we need.

We are now considering that it may be a good idea to use, at first, an 
extern HTTP server like Apache for example. Consequently, we could make 
a usable program and then try to adapt it to make it standalone. When 
all of this will be done, maybe we could include it as a thread in Icecast.

We don't have currently enough time to make that but we will at the end 
of september.

Mickaël Floc'hlay

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>http://www.spacialaudio.com/products/winamp/
>That can stream to Icecast2 in Ogg  and MP3 format
>(Actually make sure to grab the yet-to-be-released version here:
>http://www.spacialaudio.com/beta/dsp_sam_encoders.exe )
>  
>
OK, it can be a solution, but as far as i know, winamp run on windows,
so for people who use Icecast under Linux/UNIX, it is a pledge to have
to have another machine under windows only for streaming MP3 with
a winamp plugin.
>>(but MP3 was not developped to be  streamed, as you know...)
>>    
>>
>Actually it was. Thats why each frame contains all the needed information to
>decode that frame. The mp3 format simply lacks a lot of the stuff we
>currently expect from streaming audio and is pretty hard to extend without
>"hacking" the formal specs...
>  
>
I meant it didn't include all the features that are in vorbis, for example,
for metadata. In MP3 shoutcast streams, the time between metadata is
chosen at the beginning of the stream. So every icy-metadata-interval,
you must send something : if you don't want to update metadata and
save bandwith, you send a "0"...
The way Ogg works is (I find it) better : you start a new logical stream
every time you have to end metadata. Typically, every time you start a
new song ...
Another advantage is for the server : it is a pledge to insert a client in a
shoutcast MP3 stream. Because you have already sent metadata at the
beginning of the stream and you are now sending "0" every icy-metadata
interval because other clients already received the metadata. But the
new client should be sent the metadata. Because you can't wait till next
update of metadata, you have to act in a particular way for that client
and reconstruct specifically a stream for that client...
>The work you sounds very interesting though. Would love to see better
>support for MP3 in IceCast2 though...
>  
>
Thank you! I think also we can't neglect MP3 support, but the shoutcast
way used by winamp seems quite simplistic and produces an overload
(not a dramatic overload, but ...) a streaming server that Ogg encapsulated
streams don't produce.

<p>Cordially,

Arnaud Ebalard.

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> The main problem we encountered was the difficulty to find an MP3
streamer that was
> compatible with Icecast2.
http://www.spacialaudio.com/products/winamp/
That can stream to Icecast2 in Ogg  and MP3 format
(Actually make sure to grab the yet-to-be-released version here:
http://www.spacialaudio.com/beta/dsp_sam_encoders.exe )
>(but MP3 was not developped to be  streamed, as you know...)
Actually it was. Thats why each frame contains all the needed information to
decode that frame. The mp3 format simply lacks a lot of the stuff we
currently expect from streaming audio and is pretty hard to extend without
"hacking" the formal specs...

The work you sounds very interesting though. Would love to see better
support for MP3 in IceCast2 though...

Cheerz
Louis
http://www.spacialaudio.com

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What are the chances of getting ices0.3 and ices2 ported to windows as a
command line app?
and be able to run it as a NT serivce?

Dave St John
CEO Mediacast1
www.mediacast1.com - Got Bandwidth?
(720) 641-7586
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Geoff Shang" <gshang@uq.net.au>
To: <icecast-dev@xiph.org>
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Interopcast-general][icecast-dev] about
translatingdocumentation, but not only documentation.

<p>> On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Arnaud Ebalard wrote:
>
> > The main problem we encountered was the difficulty to find an MP3
> > streamer that was
> > compatible with Icecast2.
>
> For *nix, ices 0.3 will do the job.  It requires libshout2.  You can get
> them both from http://www.icecast.org/download.html
>
> Geoff.
>
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On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Arnaud Ebalard wrote:
> The main problem we encountered was the difficulty to find an MP3
> streamer that was
> compatible with Icecast2.
For *nix, ices 0.3 will do the job.  It requires libshout2.  You can get
them both from http://www.icecast.org/download.html

Geoff.

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