On 10/23/2015 03:44 PM, m.roth at 5-cent.us wrote:> Jonathan Billings wrote: >> On Oct 23, 2015, at 9:46 AM, m.roth at 5-cent.us wrote: >>> James B. Byrne wrote: >>>> >>>> I am glad to discover that I am not losing my mind. I too have been >>>> rather dismayed at the perceived increase in frequency with which I >>>> must reboot my servers. I wondered whether this was simply a >>>> misconception on my part or an actual change in the environment. >>>> >>>> Apparently it is the later. >>> >>> So systemd moves Linux to more resemble Windows? >> >> No. If anything, systemd handles upgrades better than SysV init, since it >> handles re-execing better. Please stop spreading FUD. > <snip> > What FUD? It adds *binary* logfiles, readable only with a separate > program; when I restart a service, it does not *tell* me what's going on, > just worked or didn't, so I don't know, if it fails, where, the messages > from journalctl are extremely unhelpful, and when it boots, if I want to > watch, it tends to hide much info. It's much less informative in most ways > in helping me solve problems. >Jesus Christ .. do we really have to start ANOTHER systemd thread. For the sake of everyone's sanity .. if you (any user, not mark specifically) don't want to use systemd, then please don't use CentOS-7. CentOS-7 contains systemd and where ever Red Hat puts it, CentOS will rebuild the source code. If people don't like the distro, then use something else. These lists are for providing USEFUL information to CentOS users .. flame threads will result in list users who are moderated. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: <http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/attachments/20151024/d9f49ce6/attachment-0001.sig>
On 2015-10-24, Johnny Hughes <johnny at centos.org> wrote:> > For the sake of everyone's sanity .. if you (any user, not mark > specifically) don't want to use systemd, then please don't use CentOS-7.For example, you could help out with Devuan, which aims to remove systemd from Debian, or you can switch to Slackware, one of the few major distros not to even include systemd (so far). Johnny, thank you for your efforts in trying to keep the mailing list on-topic. :) --keith -- kkeller at wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
On Sat, October 24, 2015 12:23 pm, Keith Keller wrote:> On 2015-10-24, Johnny Hughes <johnny at centos.org> wrote: >> >> For the sake of everyone's sanity .. if you (any user, not mark >> specifically) don't want to use systemd, then please don't use CentOS-7. > > For example, you could help out with Devuan, which aims to remove > systemd from Debian, or you can switch to Slackware, one of the few > major distros not to even include systemd (so far).Or switch away from Linux, say, to (Free|Opnen|Net|PC-|...)BSD just to expand options. But to take advantage of the greatness of RHEL and CentOS life cycle you have to live with systemd and friends no matter what you thinks about them (you see, I already have convinced myself ;-). And yes, thanks for everybody's effort to keep discussion off the insanely polarizing us topic(s). Valeri> > Johnny, thank you for your efforts in trying to keep the mailing list > on-topic. :) > > --keith > > -- > kkeller at wombat.san-francisco.ca.us > > > _______________________________________________ > CentOS mailing list > CentOS at centos.org > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Johnny Hughes wrote:> On 10/23/2015 03:44 PM, m.roth at 5-cent.us wrote: >> What FUD? It adds *binary* logfiles, readable only with a separate >> program; when I restart a service, it does not *tell* me what's going on, >> just worked or didn't, so I don't know, if it fails, where, the messages >> from journalctl are extremely unhelpful, and when it boots, if I want to >> watch, it tends to hide much info. It's much less informative in most ways >> in helping me solve problems. >> > > Jesus Christ .. do we really have to start ANOTHER systemd thread.Yes.> These lists are for providing USEFUL information to CentOS users ..Let's get some information that might be useful: Are binary logfiles an inherent part of systemd? If so, equating systemd with the devil would seem appropriate. My expectation is that it is not. Is the aforementioned dearth of information an inherent part of systemd? If so, equating systemd with the devil would seem appropriate. My expectation is that it is not. The evil of binary journals for people is fairly cut and dry. If data is only for another program, making it binary when it could easily be text is against unix philosophy and a bad design choice, but not proof of evil. When the data is text specifically to be read by people, choosing to make it binary is evil and rude.> flame threads will result in list users who are moderated.E.g. Johhny Hughes? What do threat posts result in? -- Michael hennebry at web.cs.ndsu.NoDak.edu "Sorry but your password must contain an uppercase letter, a number, a haiku, a gang sign, a heiroglyph, and the blood of a virgin." -- someeecards
On 10/26/2015 12:19 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:> On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Johnny Hughes wrote: > >> On 10/23/2015 03:44 PM, m.roth at 5-cent.us wrote: >>> What FUD? It adds *binary* logfiles, readable only with a separate >>> program; when I restart a service, it does not *tell* me what's going >>> on, >>> just worked or didn't, so I don't know, if it fails, where, the messages >>> from journalctl are extremely unhelpful, and when it boots, if I want to >>> watch, it tends to hide much info. It's much less informative in most >>> ways >>> in helping me solve problems. >>> >> >> Jesus Christ .. do we really have to start ANOTHER systemd thread. > > Yes. > >> These lists are for providing USEFUL information to CentOS users .. > > Let's get some information that might be useful: > > Are binary logfiles an inherent part of systemd? > If so, equating systemd with the devil would seem appropriate. > My expectation is that it is not. > > Is the aforementioned dearth of information an inherent part of systemd? > If so, equating systemd with the devil would seem appropriate. > My expectation is that it is not. > > > The evil of binary journals for people is fairly cut and dry. > If data is only for another program, > making it binary when it could easily be text is against > unix philosophy and a bad design choice, but not proof of evil. > When the data is text specifically to be read by people, > choosing to make it binary is evil and rude.All of that might be true, however this is not the place to discuss that. The goal if CentOS is to exactly build RHEL's source code. We do that. If that is not what you want in a Linux distribution, then CentOS is not for you .. that is just the facts. We are not going to change something that is designed a certain way in RHEL source code. So, that means that the place to have those discussions is not on a CentOS list, but on a list where something can be done about it. On the list where the code is actually developed, on a Fedora List or a RHEL list.> > >> flame threads will result in list users who are moderated. > > E.g. Johhny Hughes? > > What do threat posts result in? >That is not a threat, it is a promise. I set the moderation bits on the list. I get dozens of emails off list asking for people to moderated on the flame fest emails. We should all be adult and professional enough to understand that designing of software happens somewhere else and endlessly complaining about it here does nothing to get it fixed. It just annoys users who want to use centos and get help using it. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: <http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/attachments/20151026/fe9fed85/attachment-0001.sig>