CentOS - May 2005 - Re: Hi, Bryan; was: Re: pronunciation? <snip> -- don't shoot the messenger ...

From:  Collins Richey 
> Sounds pretty religious-based to me.
> IBM=bad
> HP,Sun, RedHat, SCO=good.
> OTOH, from some of your comments, Novell=better.
Are you really that shallow?

IBM is our partner, not our friend.
Sun has its interests too, and has 5 different entities of focus, which vary.
Red Hat is a tale of two companies, cut-throat business combined with
GPL-analness
(like Stallman on one side, Microsoft on the other - an unique balace).
And Caldera-SCO post-May 2003 is no longer a software company,
and as of their lobbying of Congress as of January 2004,
they are basically condeming the right to digital assembly.

There is no such thing as good/bad.
Companies have their reasons for doing things.
But what I can't stand is people like yourself holding different companies
to different standards.
Trust nothing but actual community donations - because everything else can
change tomorrow.
> You've provided plenty of one-liners in this discussion.
I don't take the time to explain things for my health.
In fact, most people complain about my verbosity.
And this "summary" you  provided is wholly inaccurate and not even
relevant.
> Plus there's the underlying religious belief,
> at least that's how I've
read it, that IBM's efforts to make money
> are inherently suspect and/or evil
No.  You haven't heard a word I said.
I have repeatedly said that Linux people should not be shallow,
and confuse money with actual donations to the community.

As I call it, it's the "Linux Quiz Show" and many people squabble
over many things,
but apparently if IBM does the same thing or even worse, people assume they
can't be bad.

SCO v. IBM resulted because of two companies - or bigger than the other.
Sun has been repeatedly scrutinized for things that IBM does and few (outside of
Linus and other developers) seem to question.
Whatever people get all hussy about, the media reports, even if its levied
unevenly.
And boy to some Linux people seem to get all so political and "anti"
all the time.
> and RedHat's attempts to do the same are blameless and
> praiseworthy.
Please point me to the non-GPL compatible (let alone just non-GPL) software Red
Hat develops!
Stallman was brilliant, because after AT&T was broken up and could now sell
UNIX,
he _knew_ companies can change overnight.

When Red Hat kills its GPL focus, then you will hear me point out the same
deals.
Until then, no matter what Red Hat does commercially, we benefit from what they
do.
Stallman's moral delima at the foundation of _several_ companies (not just
Red Hat) - the ultimate savior from themselves.

IBM is still heavily non-GPL and, again, the irony is that their GPL and even
GPL donations still trail even Sun if you can believe that.
Does that mean IBM is bad?  I could care less about such a simplication!
But IBM does have a history of destroying even GPL-centric companies when they
see them as a threat.
Sun and HP have a long history of standards - although IBM is improving in many
areas, but still scary in others.

After all, if I'm CEO of IBM, the patent king, I've gotta be careful.

I hold any company to the same standard.
I don't thin IBM is "bad" -- but damn if they are as
"good" as many other companies - at least to date.
But, again, companies can change overnight, so all we're left with is what
they gave in GPL or GPL compatible software.
And that's the _only_ standard that is consistent.

I keep a watchful eye, and hold them to actual _community_ donations.
No company should feel obligated, but Linux users need to be a little less
"shallow" than bad/good.
And they need to hold _all_ companies to the _same_ standard.

So far, I see a lot of vendor/brand-name bigotry flying around that reminds me
of the Windows world.
> All of this has little to do with CentOS, and fortunately
> CentOS isn't into the religion/blame game.
Then leave it off the list in the first place.
When I see a company demonized or slandered, while another is praised,
it's typically based not on actual considerations of their donation to the
community,
but blind vendor alignments - the whole reason AT&T became a problem, then
Microsoft, etc...

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm not the one slamming companies.
But when I see it, I will stop to point out what assumptions are incorrect.
You can't get upset with me without getting upset with those that keep
proliferating the vendor non-sense.

So let us make it about GPL and GPL compatible software,
and not consider the private lawsuits, or the non-GPL compatible (let  alone
proprietary) R&D.
Let's just keep focused on the community, and not make the community a place
where people trash companies off-the-cuff.

Your simplification is noted as your inability to comprehence anything complex,
such as the fairly limited history I have tried to provide on the companies you
seem to love/hate so much.
I don't trust any company, I only trust the source, and I only favor
companies who donate the most GPL and GPL compatible source.
Because it's the only thing that remains if and when they do change.

On 21 May 2005 19:47:08 -0500, Bryan J. Smith <b.j.smith at ieee.org>
wrote:
> But what I can't stand is people like yourself holding different
companies to different standards.
Where have I done that? I don't know that I have held any company to a
standard.
> Trust nothing but actual community donations - because everything else can
change tomorrow.
> 
> > You've provided plenty of one-liners in this discussion.
> 
> I don't take the time to explain things for my health.
> In fact, most people complain about my verbosity.
> And this "summary" you  provided is wholly inaccurate and not
even relevant.
> 
> SCO v. IBM resulted because of two companies - or bigger than the other.
> Sun has been repeatedly scrutinized for things that IBM does and few
(outside of Linus and other developers) seem to question.
>
The things I;ve heard Sun scrutinized for are their frequent (to their
own detriment) changes of direction and their clinging to proprietary
hardware in this age of interchangable parts.
> 
> > All of this has little to do with CentOS, and fortunately
> > CentOS isn't into the religion/blame game.
> 
>
> 
> So let us make it about GPL and GPL compatible software,
> and not consider the private lawsuits, or the non-GPL compatible (let 
alone proprietary) R&D.
> Let's just keep focused on the community, and not make the community a
place where people trash companies off-the-cuff.
> 
We agree on one thing. I'm not interested in trashing companies
whether off-the-cuff or carefully crafted in lengthy tirades. You,
OTOH, have seen fit to trash most of the companies you have discussed.
I have no dog in this fight. I have no one superior company or distro
in mind. CentOS and the RedHat base fits pretty well, but I haven't
chosen to use CentOS because of any religious fervor about the GPL. I
use it because it's free and it's simple and it works. If the same
ease of use and community support were to be provided for a
Novell-based distro AND it were as easy to use AND I could find other
compatible repositories, I might consider it.

All of this started with a simple question about CentOS and on another
thread about the best repositories to use for CentOS. We've come
rather far afield.

I will yield to your fantastically superior intellect and retire now.

-- 
 Collins
       Head teachers of the world unite: you have nothing to lose but 
       the Start button.

On Sun, 21 May 2005, Bryan J. Smith wrote:
> From:  Collins Richey 
> > Sounds pretty religious-based to me.
> > IBM=bad
> > HP,Sun, RedHat, SCO=good.
> > OTOH, from some of your comments, Novell=better.
> 
> Are you really that shallow?
Sorry to interrupt but he was describing how you appeared in previous 
postings. And I have to say that I felt the same way reading some of 
your postings.

Maybe it's best to move these topics to another channel.

> Your simplification is noted as your inability to comprehence anything
complex,
Can we leave the insults out, please ? It serves no purpose here.

--   dag wieers,  dag at wieers.com,  http://dag.wieers.com/   --
[all I want is a warm bed and a kind word and unlimited power]