asterisk users - Jan 2004 - Re: ultra-cheap asterisk box -> Small Biz Robust Asterisk Solution - SBRAS

Paul,

I wholly agree with what you're saying - I too ensure that we have at 
the very minimum, a set of full spares.

However, this thread really has the wrong name at this point... We're 
now looking at embedded solutions, in the same way Cisco has with it's 
ICS 7750 solution. I'm looking to build a robust embedded solution, 
that we can run in tandem - of course, we want to keep the cost down, 
otherwise I might as well buy an ICS 7750 for ?50K.

Spell out RAID - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks. Bingo.

If you can't get the top-end to start with, then make sure that 
whatever you have is robust, if not redundant. So, trimming Linux to 
the necessities, top quality voice boards, no moving parts (other than 
an HD for voice mail and CDR's) and you're on the way to a good solid 
cheap solution.

I'd rather see my entire solution on a compact flash card that I can 
have duplicates, and working dist's on, which I can swap out instantly. 
Server goes down? Well, I either replace the hunk of kit that's wrong, 
and if I can't tell, then I'll have a spare unit. Plug the CF in, and 
boot. Presto.

Personally, I'm targeting ?1000 (off the shelf that is, development 
will cost more probably) for a tandem-run system. Think of it as a live 
and a production solution. Of course, if the live machine goes down, 
you swap the CF's around, and run the production machine.

As for Dell :-p
Server $380, Warranty $500. Go figure. They've even worked the cost of 
replacing all the parts at trade price twice over.

Just pulling your leg. No hard feelings :-)

Ad.

PS I suggest a working title of "Small Biz Robust Asterisk Solution - 
SBRAS"



On 18 Jan 2004, at 6:00 pm, asterisk-users-request@lists.digium.com 
wrote:
> Message: 6
> From: "Paul Mahler" <pmahler@signate.com>
> To: <asterisk-users@lists.digium.com>
> Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] ultra-cheap asterisk box - no such thing
> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:00:08 -0800
> Organization: Signate, LLC
> Reply-To: asterisk-users@lists.digium.com
>
> My Dell 400sc server was $318 delivered including tax.=20
>
> They are indeed servers, not a PC. They are engineered, built, >
configured,
> and maintained as severs. They come with on-site maintenance, which is 
> > great
> if the server is in a different location than I am in.=20
>
> There is no way you can build a comparable server class machine, that 
> is > a
> real server, yourself from parts at this price. When it breaks, a real
> company comes out and fixes it. Even if you could buy the parts for 
> the > same
> amount of money, which you can't, you don't get the engineering and
> maintenance.=20
>
> DELL, or other reputable manufacturer's servers, are distinguished by 
> a > lot
> of engineering work over a large installed base that assures their >
utility
> as a server. I have spent many hours finding out the hard way that 
> there > was
> an incompatibility, hardware or software, in some server I had built >
myself.
> So, even if you could build machines yourself from parts for this 
> price,
> which you can't, it is not going to be as well engineered or tested.=20
>
> Building your own server is probably fine for a non-critical 
> application
> where you are a small-time operator. If you are running a real 
> business,
> there is no substitute for buying a real server from a real company 
> with
> real maintenance.=20
>
> Even if you could save $50 or $100, why bother. You have to spend the >
time
> to build and test the server. You are assuming in your cost 
> calculation > that
> your time is free. Building a server yourself is only cheaper if you >
don't
> value your own time.=20
>
> Your cost calculation also assumes the server won't ever break. The
> first
> time you have to fix your home-brew box the cost difference 
> disappears. > Even
> if your time is valueless, buying a new part will eliminate any cost
> difference.=20
>
> Even when buying an industrial strength server from a reputable
> manufacturer, I always stock a spare server with the identical >
configuration
> in case something goes wrong. I also keep spare interface boards >
on-hand. If
> something breaks in the business of one of my customers I can quickly >
fix
> it. Running a hot spare insures that phone service is always 
> available.=20
>
> Are you building toys or putting real systems in real businesses? If 
> you > are
> building a toy system for a non-critical application, by all means 
> build
> your own server if you think that's a fun thing to do. Any putative 
> cost
> saving from building one's own server for a mission critical 
> application > is
> fictive.=20
>
> Paul =20

On Sunday 18 January 2004 12:01, Adthrawn wrote:
> Spell out RAID - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks. Bingo.
That's "Independent Disks".  It's the independence of each
spindle that
is valued, not the cost proposition.  If one spindle goes, it's not all
of your data which goes with it.  Consider that many (most?) SCSI disks
aren't inexpensive.

-Tilghman

Howdy,

Sounds like we are in violent agreement. ;-)

What is the difference between an embedded system and a server?? We are
using 1U rack mount servers that cost more, about $1,200.  

One nice thing about the dell server is that it will boot from the USB port.
You can put everything on a USB disk. We are currently using a key-chain USB
drive for backing up all the configuration information on our Asterisk
servers, although we don't boot from it. 

We are using a MEPIS Linux distro that is pre-configured for Asterisk. You
can actually boot Linux from the CD. This distro is available at
www.mepis.com. We are working on getting Asterisk to boot from the CD as
well. 

I have personally had bad experiences with RAID arrays. I lost a level 1
RAID array a few months ago and everything on both disks was lost, even
though the disks were on separate channels on the Promise RAID IDE adaptor.
Makes me trust IDE raid even less than I did before. Four months ago I lost
a level 5 SCSII raid array on a Dell server. The service technician managed
to lose all the data on the redundant drives and I was forced to the backup
tapes. I don't think I would really trust sensitive data to less than a
SCSII RAID 5. Even that is no substitute for backups. 

Most of my users don't seem to be as sensitive to losing voice mail as they
are to losing other data. I think the best thing about a RAID array for an
Asterisk server is that it will keep the machine running in the face of a
disk outage, not so much that it insures against data loss. I'm thinking of
going with two separate controllers and software RAID. 

There is also all the other infrastructure you need to put in place for a
reliable system, for example a decent UPS and access to 911. 

Paul



 
Paul Mahler 
mail:pmahler@signate.com
phone: 650.207.9855
fax: 877.408.0105

-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-admin@lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-admin@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Adthrawn
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 10:01 AM
To: asterisk-users@lists.digium.com
Subject: [Asterisk-Users] Re: ultra-cheap asterisk box -> Small Biz Robust
Asterisk Solution - SBRAS

Paul,

I wholly agree with what you're saying - I too ensure that we have at 
the very minimum, a set of full spares.

However, this thread really has the wrong name at this point... We're 
now looking at embedded solutions, in the same way Cisco has with it's 
ICS 7750 solution. I'm looking to build a robust embedded solution, 
that we can run in tandem - of course, we want to keep the cost down, 
otherwise I might as well buy an ICS 7750 for ?50K.

Spell out RAID - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks. Bingo.

If you can't get the top-end to start with, then make sure that 
whatever you have is robust, if not redundant. So, trimming Linux to 
the necessities, top quality voice boards, no moving parts (other than 
an HD for voice mail and CDR's) and you're on the way to a good solid 
cheap solution.

I'd rather see my entire solution on a compact flash card that I can 
have duplicates, and working dist's on, which I can swap out instantly. 
Server goes down? Well, I either replace the hunk of kit that's wrong, 
and if I can't tell, then I'll have a spare unit. Plug the CF in, and 
boot. Presto.

Personally, I'm targeting ?1000 (off the shelf that is, development 
will cost more probably) for a tandem-run system. Think of it as a live 
and a production solution. Of course, if the live machine goes down, 
you swap the CF's around, and run the production machine.

As for Dell :-p
Server $380, Warranty $500. Go figure. They've even worked the cost of 
replacing all the parts at trade price twice over.

Just pulling your leg. No hard feelings :-)

Ad.

PS I suggest a working title of "Small Biz Robust Asterisk Solution - 
SBRAS"



On 18 Jan 2004, at 6:00 pm, asterisk-users-request@lists.digium.com 
wrote:
> Message: 6
> From: "Paul Mahler" <pmahler@signate.com>
> To: <asterisk-users@lists.digium.com>
> Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] ultra-cheap asterisk box - no such thing
> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:00:08 -0800
> Organization: Signate, LLC
> Reply-To: asterisk-users@lists.digium.com
>
> My Dell 400sc server was $318 delivered including tax.=20
>
> They are indeed servers, not a PC. They are engineered, built, >
configured,
> and maintained as severs. They come with on-site maintenance, which is 
> > great
> if the server is in a different location than I am in.=20
>
> There is no way you can build a comparable server class machine, that 
> is > a
> real server, yourself from parts at this price. When it breaks, a real
> company comes out and fixes it. Even if you could buy the parts for 
> the > same
> amount of money, which you can't, you don't get the engineering and
> maintenance.=20
>
> DELL, or other reputable manufacturer's servers, are distinguished by 
> a > lot
> of engineering work over a large installed base that assures their >
utility
> as a server. I have spent many hours finding out the hard way that 
> there > was
> an incompatibility, hardware or software, in some server I had built >
myself.
> So, even if you could build machines yourself from parts for this 
> price,
> which you can't, it is not going to be as well engineered or tested.=20
>
> Building your own server is probably fine for a non-critical 
> application
> where you are a small-time operator. If you are running a real 
> business,
> there is no substitute for buying a real server from a real company 
> with
> real maintenance.=20
>
> Even if you could save $50 or $100, why bother. You have to spend the >
time
> to build and test the server. You are assuming in your cost 
> calculation > that
> your time is free. Building a server yourself is only cheaper if you >
don't
> value your own time.=20
>
> Your cost calculation also assumes the server won't ever break. The
> first
> time you have to fix your home-brew box the cost difference 
> disappears. > Even
> if your time is valueless, buying a new part will eliminate any cost
> difference.=20
>
> Even when buying an industrial strength server from a reputable
> manufacturer, I always stock a spare server with the identical >
configuration
> in case something goes wrong. I also keep spare interface boards >
on-hand. If
> something breaks in the business of one of my customers I can quickly >
fix
> it. Running a hot spare insures that phone service is always 
> available.=20
>
> Are you building toys or putting real systems in real businesses? If 
> you > are
> building a toy system for a non-critical application, by all means 
> build
> your own server if you think that's a fun thing to do. Any putative 
> cost
> saving from building one's own server for a mission critical 
> application > is
> fictive.=20
>
> Paul =20
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