I seem to be having a problem working with an object which has a HABTM relationship with another object I know there''s been a lot of talk recently about problems using dual HABTM in a single object but I believe this may be a separate issue. It appears like I''m unable to persist this relationship (i.e. the object saves but none of the entries in the join table are created even though the "arts" object is populated) during the initial save, yet it I update the exact same object it properly updates the database. I have an model which looks like the following: class Event < ActiveRecord::Base ... has_and_belongs_to_many :arts ... end for testing purposes I have a form with some fields that I''m using to populate this object: <input type="hidden" name="event[art_ids][]" value="1"> <input type="hidden" name="event[art_ids][]" value="2"> <input type="hidden" name="event[art_ids][]" value="3"> finally my controller, when I attempt to save the object it doesn''t save the 3 join rows in the arts_events table (even though they do exist in the object), my save method looks like: def add @event = Event.new( params[:event] ) @event.user = @session[:user] if @request.post? and @event.save redirect_to :action=>:view, :id=>@event.id end end the odd thing is, is when I access the EXACT same form but update this object with the following update method it creates the 3 arts_events def edit @event = Event.find_by_user_and_id( @session[:user], params[:id] ) @event.update_attributes( params[:event] ) if @request.post? and @event.save flash.now[:notice] = "event record has been sucessfully updated" end end now to further prove my point that it doesn''t work with saving, but it does work with updating I change the add method to the following which saves all the 3 rows in the arts_events table def add @event = Event.new( params[:event] ) @event.user = @session[:user] if @request.post? and @event.save @event.reload @event.update_attributes( params[:event] ) @event.save redirect_to :action=>:view, :id=>@event.id end end Any insight anyone could provide would be appreciated.. Thanks Chris