The problem seems to be that the people who have a desire to unsubscrbe and post here are not the most sophisticated of users and expecting them to know how to track down the raw email or even to realise the message at the bottom of the post is meant to convey much of anything is not likely to occur to them. I have not had any need to look for the raw email and, while it only took a few seconds to find it in my email reader, one has to know it exists before one can look for it. I probably have not looked at a raw email for 3-5 years. Why would I? The chances of a newbie, possibly without much "computer" experience vs user of MS Office and E-mail even being aware such a thing exists is slig\t (snowballl in ... ?) A slight change to the footer seems like a good idea. John Kane Kingston ON Canada> -----Original Message----- > From: info at aghmed.fsnet.co.uk > Sent: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 14:02:12 +0000 > To: jsorkin at grecc.umaryland.edu, hb at biostat.ucsf.edu > Subject: Re: [R] please please unsubscribe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Dear John > > Perhaps you have set your mail client to hide them? Your email certainly > has them when I go Options | View | Headers | All in Thunderbird. > > Michael > > On 30/11/2014 12:05, John Sorkin wrote: >> The headers listed below as being part of the ?raw" email messages are >> not seen, at least not in the messages I receive. >> John >> >>> John David Sorkin M.D., Ph.D. >>> Professor of Medicine >>> Chief, Biostatistics and Informatics >>> University of Maryland School of Medicine Division of Gerontology and >> Geriatric Medicine >>> Baltimore VA Medical Center >>> 10 North Greene Street >>> GRECC (BT/18/GR) >>> Baltimore, MD 21201-1524 >>> (Phone) 410-605-7119 >>> (Fax) 410-605-7913 (Please call phone number above prior to faxing) >> >> >>> On Nov 29, 2014, at 11:22 PM, Henrik Bengtsson <hb at biostat.ucsf.edu> >> wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Jeff Newmiller >>> <jdnewmil at dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote: >>>> To be fair, Rolf, they have already found difficulty and are trying >> to find their way out of this torrent, and impeding their way is not in >> anyone's interest. >>>> >>>> John: I agree that adding the word "unsubscribe" to the footer would >> probably help those lost enough to be mailing the list. The existing web >> page does have that word on it, though. >>>> >>>> Fabio: I was unaware of the unsubscribe header... looks interesting, >> though I would be concerned that it seems like it might bypass the >> password protection currently in place, making it susceptible to abuse. >> However, there seem to be quite a lot of organizations using it so it >> may work better than my initial impression tells me it does. >>> >>> FYI, if you look at the raw email messages, they all have the >>> following in the header: >>> >>> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 >>> Precedence: list >>> List-Id: "Main R Mailing List: Primary help" <r-help.r-project.org> >>> List-Unsubscribe: <https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/options/r-help>, >>> <mailto:r-help-request at r-project.org?subject=unsubscribe> >>> List-Archive: <https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-help/> >>> List-Post: <mailto:r-help at r-project.org> >>> List-Help: <mailto:r-help-request at r-project.org?subject=help> >>> List-Subscribe: <https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help>, >>> <mailto:r-help-request at r-project.org?subject=subscribe> >>> >>> Note that "List-Unsubscribe" field >>> [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2369.html]. That does not seem to be >>> enough to have Gmail add a "unsubscribe" button/link (which is indeed >>> a useful UX feature). Google mention some more requirements in >>> https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#unsub, particularly >>> "'Precedence: bulk'", which I find on since mailing lists typically >>> use "list" just as r-help does. I also found a mentioning on "DKIM >>> key signature" being required >>> >> [http://blog.mailchimp.com/gmails-new-unsubscribe-link-and-feedback-loop/]. >>> So, not sure how easy it is to enable all this for the list(s) (which >>> are handled by Mailman). >>> >>> My $.02 >>> >>> /Henrik >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Jeff Newmiller The ..... ..... Go >> Live... >>>> DCN:<jdnewmil at dcn.davis.ca.us> Basics: ##.#. ##.#. Live >> Go... >>>> Live: OO#.. Dead: OO#.. >> Playing >>>> Research Engineer (Solar/Batteries O.O#. #.O#. with >>>> /Software/Embedded Controllers) .OO#. .OO#. >> rocks...1k >>>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse my brevity. >>>> >>>>> On November 29, 2014 6:14:11 PM PST, Rolf Turner >> <r.turner at auckland.ac.nz> wrote: >>>>>> On 30/11/14 14:16, John Sorkin wrote: >>>>>> I don't see a link that is labeled "unsubscribe". >>>>> >>>>> <SNIP> >>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2014, at 7:35 PM, Jeff Newmiller >>>>> <jdnewmil at dcn.davis.CA.us> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In what way would that be unlike the link that is already there? >>>>> >>>>> <SNIP> >>>>> >>>>>>> On November 29, 2014 4:09:29 PM PST, John Sorkin >>>>>> <jsorkin at grecc.umaryland.edu> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Requests like this appear from time to time. Would it make sense >>>>> to >>>>>>>> add a link to the bottom of the email messages generated by the >>>>> mail >>>>>>>> program that is labeled>>> Well, there is no "unsubscribe" page as >>>>>>>> such. The link given, i.e. >>>>> >>>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >>>>> >>>>> takes you to the primary help page. That provides a link to a >> (password >>>>> >>>>> protected) page where you can handle all matters pertaining to your >>>>> r-help subscription, including unsubscribing. >>>>> >>>>> I suppose that it might be possible to provide a link taking one >>>>> directly to this second page, but: >>>>> >>>>> (1) It would add clutter (I'm sure we don't want to delete the link >> to >>>>> the primary help page). >>>>> >>>>> (2) The password protection might get complicated; I don't know >> about >>>>> such matters. >>>>> >>>>> (3) I don't think we want to waste time and resources helping people >>>>> who >>>>> are too stupid and illiterate to find their way to the unsubscribe >>>>> facility on the basis of what is already provided. They shouldn't >> be >>>>> R users in the first place. One needs at least two grey cells to >> rub >>>>> together to deal with R. >>>>> >>>>> cheers, >>>>> >>>>> Rolf Turner >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> R-help at r-project.org mailing list >>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >>>> PLEASE do read the posting guide >> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >>>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >> >> Confidentiality Statement: >> This email message, including any attachments, is for ...{{dropped:22}} > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.____________________________________________________________ Can't remember your password? Do you need a strong and secure password? Use Password manager! It stores your passwords & protects your account.
My reply on "raw" email headers was regarding a suggestion on having Gmail and similar clients automatically to add an easy-to-spot unsubscribe link/button. No one here suggested the user him-/herself should read those headers. Henrik On Nov 30, 2014 6:16 AM, "John Kane" <jrkrideau at inbox.com> wrote:> The problem seems to be that the people who have a desire to unsubscrbe > and post here are not the most sophisticated of users and expecting them to > know how to track down the raw email or even to realise the message at the > bottom of the post is meant to convey much of anything is not likely to > occur to them. > > I have not had any need to look for the raw email and, while it only took > a few seconds to find it in my email reader, one has to know it exists > before one can look for it. > > I probably have not looked at a raw email for 3-5 years. Why would I? > > The chances of a newbie, possibly without much "computer" experience vs > user of MS Office and E-mail even being aware such a thing exists is slig\t > (snowballl in ... ?) > > A slight change to the footer seems like a good idea. > > John Kane > Kingston ON Canada > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: info at aghmed.fsnet.co.uk > > Sent: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 14:02:12 +0000 > > To: jsorkin at grecc.umaryland.edu, hb at biostat.ucsf.edu > > Subject: Re: [R] please please unsubscribe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > Dear John > > > > Perhaps you have set your mail client to hide them? Your email certainly > > has them when I go Options | View | Headers | All in Thunderbird. > > > > Michael > > > > On 30/11/2014 12:05, John Sorkin wrote: > >> The headers listed below as being part of the ?raw" email messages are > >> not seen, at least not in the messages I receive. > >> John > >> > >>> John David Sorkin M.D., Ph.D. > >>> Professor of Medicine > >>> Chief, Biostatistics and Informatics > >>> University of Maryland School of Medicine Division of Gerontology and > >> Geriatric Medicine > >>> Baltimore VA Medical Center > >>> 10 North Greene Street > >>> GRECC (BT/18/GR) > >>> Baltimore, MD 21201-1524 > >>> (Phone) 410-605-7119 > >>> (Fax) 410-605-7913 (Please call phone number above prior to faxing) > >> > >> > >>> On Nov 29, 2014, at 11:22 PM, Henrik Bengtsson <hb at biostat.ucsf.edu> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Jeff Newmiller > >>> <jdnewmil at dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote: > >>>> To be fair, Rolf, they have already found difficulty and are trying > >> to find their way out of this torrent, and impeding their way is not in > >> anyone's interest. > >>>> > >>>> John: I agree that adding the word "unsubscribe" to the footer would > >> probably help those lost enough to be mailing the list. The existing web > >> page does have that word on it, though. > >>>> > >>>> Fabio: I was unaware of the unsubscribe header... looks interesting, > >> though I would be concerned that it seems like it might bypass the > >> password protection currently in place, making it susceptible to abuse. > >> However, there seem to be quite a lot of organizations using it so it > >> may work better than my initial impression tells me it does. > >>> > >>> FYI, if you look at the raw email messages, they all have the > >>> following in the header: > >>> > >>> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 > >>> Precedence: list > >>> List-Id: "Main R Mailing List: Primary help" <r-help.r-project.org> > >>> List-Unsubscribe: <https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/options/r-help>, > >>> <mailto:r-help-request at r-project.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >>> List-Archive: <https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-help/> > >>> List-Post: <mailto:r-help at r-project.org> > >>> List-Help: <mailto:r-help-request at r-project.org?subject=help> > >>> List-Subscribe: <https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help>, > >>> <mailto:r-help-request at r-project.org?subject=subscribe> > >>> > >>> Note that "List-Unsubscribe" field > >>> [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2369.html]. That does not seem to be > >>> enough to have Gmail add a "unsubscribe" button/link (which is indeed > >>> a useful UX feature). Google mention some more requirements in > >>> https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#unsub, particularly > >>> "'Precedence: bulk'", which I find on since mailing lists typically > >>> use "list" just as r-help does. I also found a mentioning on "DKIM > >>> key signature" being required > >>> > >> [ > http://blog.mailchimp.com/gmails-new-unsubscribe-link-and-feedback-loop/]. > >>> So, not sure how easy it is to enable all this for the list(s) (which > >>> are handled by Mailman). > >>> > >>> My $.02 > >>> > >>> /Henrik > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Jeff Newmiller The ..... ..... Go > >> Live... > >>>> DCN:<jdnewmil at dcn.davis.ca.us> Basics: ##.#. ##.#. Live > >> Go... > >>>> Live: OO#.. Dead: OO#.. > >> Playing > >>>> Research Engineer (Solar/Batteries O.O#. #.O#. with > >>>> /Software/Embedded Controllers) .OO#. .OO#. > >> rocks...1k > >>>> > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse my brevity. > >>>> > >>>>> On November 29, 2014 6:14:11 PM PST, Rolf Turner > >> <r.turner at auckland.ac.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> On 30/11/14 14:16, John Sorkin wrote: > >>>>>> I don't see a link that is labeled "unsubscribe". > >>>>> > >>>>> <SNIP> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2014, at 7:35 PM, Jeff Newmiller > >>>>> <jdnewmil at dcn.davis.CA.us> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In what way would that be unlike the link that is already there? > >>>>> > >>>>> <SNIP> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> On November 29, 2014 4:09:29 PM PST, John Sorkin > >>>>>> <jsorkin at grecc.umaryland.edu> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> Requests like this appear from time to time. Would it make sense > >>>>> to > >>>>>>>> add a link to the bottom of the email messages generated by the > >>>>> mail > >>>>>>>> program that is labeled>>> Well, there is no "unsubscribe" page as > >>>>>>>> such. The link given, i.e. > >>>>> > >>>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > >>>>> > >>>>> takes you to the primary help page. That provides a link to a > >> (password > >>>>> > >>>>> protected) page where you can handle all matters pertaining to your > >>>>> r-help subscription, including unsubscribing. > >>>>> > >>>>> I suppose that it might be possible to provide a link taking one > >>>>> directly to this second page, but: > >>>>> > >>>>> (1) It would add clutter (I'm sure we don't want to delete the link > >> to > >>>>> the primary help page). > >>>>> > >>>>> (2) The password protection might get complicated; I don't know > >> about > >>>>> such matters. > >>>>> > >>>>> (3) I don't think we want to waste time and resources helping people > >>>>> who > >>>>> are too stupid and illiterate to find their way to the unsubscribe > >>>>> facility on the basis of what is already provided. They shouldn't > >> be > >>>>> R users in the first place. One needs at least two grey cells to > >> rub > >>>>> together to deal with R. > >>>>> > >>>>> cheers, > >>>>> > >>>>> Rolf Turner > >>>> > >>>> ______________________________________________ > >>>> R-help at r-project.org mailing list > >>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > >>>> PLEASE do read the posting guide > >> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > >>>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > >> > >> Confidentiality Statement: > >> This email message, including any attachments, is for ...{{dropped:22}} > > > > ______________________________________________ > > R-help at r-project.org mailing list > > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > > PLEASE do read the posting guide > > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > > ____________________________________________________________ > Can't remember your password? Do you need a strong and secure password? > Use Password manager! It stores your passwords & protects your account. > Check it out at http://mysecurelogon.com/password-manager > > >[[alternative HTML version deleted]]
No one is suggesting that anyone read raw headers. This is a mechanism that
requires features on both the list server end and the client end... but if
newbies are using modern facilities then that would be exactly their situation.
Please read up on the mechanism at least a little bit before criticizing it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Newmiller The ..... ..... Go Live...
DCN:<jdnewmil at dcn.davis.ca.us> Basics: ##.#. ##.#. Live
Go...
Live: OO#.. Dead: OO#.. Playing
Research Engineer (Solar/Batteries O.O#. #.O#. with
/Software/Embedded Controllers) .OO#. .OO#. rocks...1k
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent from my phone. Please excuse my brevity.
On November 30, 2014 6:16:55 AM PST, John Kane <jrkrideau at inbox.com>
wrote:>The problem seems to be that the people who have a desire to unsubscrbe
>and post here are not the most sophisticated of users and expecting
>them to know how to track down the raw email or even to realise the
>message at the bottom of the post is meant to convey much of anything
>is not likely to occur to them.
>
>I have not had any need to look for the raw email and, while it only
>took a few seconds to find it in my email reader, one has to know it
>exists before one can look for it.
>
>I probably have not looked at a raw email for 3-5 years. Why would I?
>
>The chances of a newbie, possibly without much "computer"
experience vs
>user of MS Office and E-mail even being aware such a thing exists is
>slig\t (snowballl in ... ?)
>
>A slight change to the footer seems like a good idea.
>
>John Kane
>Kingston ON Canada
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: info at aghmed.fsnet.co.uk
>> Sent: Sun, 30 Nov 2014 14:02:12 +0000
>> To: jsorkin at grecc.umaryland.edu, hb at biostat.ucsf.edu
>> Subject: Re: [R] please please unsubscribe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> Dear John
>>
>> Perhaps you have set your mail client to hide them? Your email
>certainly
>> has them when I go Options | View | Headers | All in Thunderbird.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> On 30/11/2014 12:05, John Sorkin wrote:
>>> The headers listed below as being part of the ?raw" email
messages
>are
>>> not seen, at least not in the messages I receive.
>>> John
>>>
>>>> John David Sorkin M.D., Ph.D.
>>>> Professor of Medicine
>>>> Chief, Biostatistics and Informatics
>>>> University of Maryland School of Medicine Division of
Gerontology
>and
>>> Geriatric Medicine
>>>> Baltimore VA Medical Center
>>>> 10 North Greene Street
>>>> GRECC (BT/18/GR)
>>>> Baltimore, MD 21201-1524
>>>> (Phone) 410-605-7119
>>>> (Fax) 410-605-7913 (Please call phone number above prior to
faxing)
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 29, 2014, at 11:22 PM, Henrik Bengtsson
><hb at biostat.ucsf.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Jeff Newmiller
>>>> <jdnewmil at dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>> To be fair, Rolf, they have already found difficulty and
are
>trying
>>> to find their way out of this torrent, and impeding their way is
not
>in
>>> anyone's interest.
>>>>>
>>>>> John: I agree that adding the word "unsubscribe"
to the footer
>would
>>> probably help those lost enough to be mailing the list. The
existing
>web
>>> page does have that word on it, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fabio: I was unaware of the unsubscribe header... looks
>interesting,
>>> though I would be concerned that it seems like it might bypass the
>>> password protection currently in place, making it susceptible to
>abuse.
>>> However, there seem to be quite a lot of organizations using it so
>it
>>> may work better than my initial impression tells me it does.
>>>>
>>>> FYI, if you look at the raw email messages, they all have the
>>>> following in the header:
>>>>
>>>> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1
>>>> Precedence: list
>>>> List-Id: "Main R Mailing List: Primary help"
<r-help.r-project.org>
>>>> List-Unsubscribe:
<https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/options/r-help>,
>>>> <mailto:r-help-request at
r-project.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>> List-Archive: <https://stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-help/>
>>>> List-Post: <mailto:r-help at r-project.org>
>>>> List-Help: <mailto:r-help-request at
r-project.org?subject=help>
>>>> List-Subscribe:
<https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help>,
>>>> <mailto:r-help-request at
r-project.org?subject=subscribe>
>>>>
>>>> Note that "List-Unsubscribe" field
>>>> [http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2369.html]. That does not seem to
be
>>>> enough to have Gmail add a "unsubscribe" button/link
(which is
>indeed
>>>> a useful UX feature). Google mention some more requirements in
>>>> https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#unsub,
particularly
>>>> "'Precedence: bulk'", which I find on since
mailing lists typically
>>>> use "list" just as r-help does. I also found a
mentioning on "DKIM
>>>> key signature" being required
>>>>
>>>
>[http://blog.mailchimp.com/gmails-new-unsubscribe-link-and-feedback-loop/].
>>>> So, not sure how easy it is to enable all this for the list(s)
>(which
>>>> are handled by Mailman).
>>>>
>>>> My $.02
>>>>
>>>> /Henrik
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Jeff Newmiller The .....
.....
>Go
>>> Live...
>>>>> DCN:<jdnewmil at dcn.davis.ca.us> Basics:
##.#. ##.#.
>Live
>>> Go...
>>>>> Live: OO#.. Dead:
OO#..
>>> Playing
>>>>> Research Engineer (Solar/Batteries O.O#.
#.O#.
>with
>>>>> /Software/Embedded Controllers) .OO#.
.OO#.
>>> rocks...1k
>>>>>
>>>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On November 29, 2014 6:14:11 PM PST, Rolf Turner
>>> <r.turner at auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 30/11/14 14:16, John Sorkin wrote:
>>>>>>> I don't see a link that is labeled
"unsubscribe".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <SNIP>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2014, at 7:35 PM, Jeff Newmiller
>>>>>> <jdnewmil at dcn.davis.CA.us>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In what way would that be unlike the link that
is already
>there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <SNIP>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On November 29, 2014 4:09:29 PM PST, John
Sorkin
>>>>>>> <jsorkin at grecc.umaryland.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Requests like this appear from time to
time. Would it make
>sense
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> add a link to the bottom of the email
messages generated by
>the
>>>>>> mail
>>>>>>>>> program that is labeled>>> Well,
there is no "unsubscribe"
>page as
>>>>>>>>> such. The link given, i.e.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>>>>>>
>>>>>> takes you to the primary help page. That provides a
link to a
>>> (password
>>>>>>
>>>>>> protected) page where you can handle all matters
pertaining to
>your
>>>>>> r-help subscription, including unsubscribing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose that it might be possible to provide a link
taking one
>>>>>> directly to this second page, but:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (1) It would add clutter (I'm sure we don't
want to delete the
>link
>>> to
>>>>>> the primary help page).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (2) The password protection might get complicated; I
don't know
>>> about
>>>>>> such matters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (3) I don't think we want to waste time and
resources helping
>people
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> are too stupid and illiterate to find their way to the
>unsubscribe
>>>>>> facility on the basis of what is already provided.
They
>shouldn't
>>> be
>>>>>> R users in the first place. One needs at least two
grey cells to
>>> rub
>>>>>> together to deal with R.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rolf Turner
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>> R-help at r-project.org mailing list
>>>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>>>>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>>>>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained,
reproducible code.
>>>
>>> Confidentiality Statement:
>>> This email message, including any attachments, is for
>...{{dropped:22}}
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> R-help at r-project.org mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Can't remember your password? Do you need a strong and secure password?
>Use Password manager! It stores your passwords & protects your account.
>
>______________________________________________
>R-help at r-project.org mailing list
>https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>PLEASE do read the posting guide
>http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.