Behold, gtgbr@gmx.net hath decreed:> Aaron Gaudio wrote: > > or developing for it. The fact that no release packages are available > > signifies to me that icecast2 is not yet ready for prime time. This > > Well, there are, see Geoff's mail ... those are official. Multiple > problems of pretty much any kind prevented Xiph.org from getting > icecast.org in order; I don't know much about them, but the fact that > icecast.org is *really* in bad shape, its CVS is outdated, no mention of > Icecast2 as you said, like the missing Alpha release.. all this shows > that there must be something majorly b0rk3n. ;P ... and there's only > that much time they have to fix time intense things that have nothing to > do with what they want/we expect them to do - develop.If icecast.org is so broken, then someone ought to do what was suggested on the list in November (looking through the archives): put it out of its misery. Why are there no "official" releases? Are you saying no one (say, an official maintainer, for which that would be one of his/her functions) is willing to put them together and stuff them somewhere on xiph.org or sourceforge.net or some other distribution channel that is available and visible? Is there a maintainer for this project (I mean that seriously, I'm not really familiar with the development effort)?> > What I'm trying to say, those problems are webserver related. Icecast2 > alpha was finished already months ago, and even before that it's been in > quite some wide production use already. Icecast2 is a stable program. > The most prominent example would surely be the BBC Vorbis streams.That may be, but if the only "official" source I have to retrieve it from is CVS, then it is not ready for prime time, no matter what its stability may or may not be. First of all, grabbing the latest CVS version means I will be getting every little (untested) change that has been put into CVS. If there are labels for "official" released versions, then I don't know about them... why? because there's no documentation of what to actually get from CVS. Wine has CVS versions... one usually downloads a CVS snapshot (or RPM made from a CVS snapshot)... wine was "stable" (if not "complete") for quite a long time, but they never called it released until 1.0 came out.> > If you're waiting for a 2.0 release (not alpha, not beta), well, your > loss. Icecast2 worked great for my little fun games for something like > 1.5 years now (no, I don't have a 100 MBit line at my disposal ;P). > Apparently there are only a few minor features missing, and considering > its stability I believe a potential beta phase wouldn't last long.The problem is, without having enough people running it, such stories are allegorical. And there cannot be many people running it, judging from the lack of servers listed in the icecast.org directory server (unless everyone just suddenly became shy).> > > is not meant to be a criticism with anything about icecast2, as I > > haven't used it, merely that it should not be treated as if it is > > released until it is released, and icecast1 should not be treated as > > obsolete until icecast2 is released. (BTW, I had this same argument > > It *is* released, but people can't get it besides from Mike's inofficial > place, Xiph.org CVS and Oddsock's win32 port on oddsock.org. That's the > whole issue, not Icecast2 being not where I pretend it to be.Then it is not released, just available. It's like saying "Doom 3 *is* released, but people can't get it besides from the unofficial alpha available on Gnutella". Maybe it is just a maintenance problem- maybe someone just needs to grab the icecast2 X.XX version label from CVS, make a tarball and put it up on a website. That's still part of releasing a project (free software or not), and without such maintenance effort, the project will appear to most as not ready for use. Is this a TODO item? Is there a "stable version" label on icecast2 (other than HEAD)? I can try putting together a package in my spare time and sticking it online somewhere.> > I suggest you give it a try. Streaming Vorbis is fun. If you happen have > tools like libtool, automake/-conf et al installed, getting it from CVS > is really no big deal and no different than installing from a release > tarball.I'm not all that interested in streaming vorbis at this time, because I have more mp3s than I do oggs. It's simpler for me to stream mp3s. Does icecast2 only stream vorbis? If that's the case, then icecast1 will never be obsolete so long as people want to stream mp3s (without reencoding to ogg-- which introduces more loss into the stream). From my little understanding of what exactly icecast2 does (hobbled together from searches through the list archives, since there is no useful webpage information).> > > Furthermore, since icecast2 is not released yet, IMO it is premature > > to disable the icecast1-compatible directory server (especially > > without any kind of warning). I will continue to use icecast1, for > > all of its faults until icecast2 appears to be, if not a mature > > project, then at least a project which has given birth. The fact that > > Uh, does any directory server still work? The Shoutcast people didn't > want Icecast servers announced in their directories anymore for quite > some time now, iirc, and given the shape of icecast.org, every "normal" > directory servers there might simply be broken over time. ;Pyp.mp3.de still works, although it does not display as much detail on each stream as yp.icecast.org does (did). That, and I don't speak German. :) -- prothonotar at tarnation.dyndns.org "Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, /Momento Mori/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 593 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/icecast/attachments/20021228/958e8b3a/part.pgp
Behold, gtgbr@gmx.net hath decreed:> Aaron Gaudio wrote: > > If icecast.org is so broken, then someone ought to do what was > > suggested on the list in November (looking through the archives): > > put it out of its misery. Why are there no "official" releases? > > I already told you, there *are* official releases (or, to be exact, one > release), but icecast.org hasn't seen an update due to problems. Don't > you think that Michael Smith, for example, would be happy to finally get > his hard work on Icecast2 "out there" so people can find it in a more > prominent place? These are problems neither you nor I can help with, > Xiph.org does that, when they have the time. Believe it or not, there's > more important stuff than Icecast2 - and those who want it can get it, > they just have to bother themselves a little more than usual.Then those who are interested in making the release(s) available should look to an alternative site than xiph.org. What are the problems with icecast.org? Why is it still operational? Why is there no other site in its place? Is nobody willing to set one up?> > > That may be, but if the only "official" source I have to retrieve it > > from is CVS, then it is not ready for prime time, no matter what its > > stability may or may not be. First of all, grabbing the latest CVS > > You're just trolling. Who cares? Would you trust a network engineer with > decades of experience, or would he have to buy himself a shiny > certificate for $1000? This "official"-blah is pointless, it's the > product and the fact that it's released that matter.Where is it released? Telling me I have to set up cvs to download the source code, lack of any sort of documentation is user-readable format, lack of certain features such as directory server support.. that doesn't seem to spell released to me. Why do I have to subscribe to the icecast user support mailing list to find out how to download and use the only version of icecast that anyone is interested in supporting? Is this simply a lack of enough people to work on these more mundane details? If so, where is the call for help?> > Do you *demand* that you get something for free, officially?I am not demanding anything. I'm simply stating that if the maintainer(s) wishes to provide a product that people are interested in using (including testing & bugfixing), then IMNSHO the current mechanism for producing that product is inadequate. How many months have to go by wasted on discussions between confused users and apathetic developers before someone says "hey, wait, maybe if we put this info up on a webpage somewhere, people will stop asking us about it"?> > I never said that it's a final release, I said "alpha release". It's not > feature complete. It's not been in beta, yet. It does, what it does, > with great reliability and performance. It does enough to be useful for > most potential users at this point already.Then how is it a replacement for icecast1? How is a fully released icecast1 obsoleted by an alpha release?> There's no directory server supporting Icecast2 servers.Fine. Another feature missing from icecast2.> I also wouldn't > ever announce my stream on such a server, but maybe that's just me. > (When I stream, then it's just a couple hours for friends that I know > personally)OK. I'm not advocating what you personally want to do with the product. There are people who do want to list there streams on directory servers, and icecast1 can do it. I presume icecast2 is planning on supporting it. Of course, I don't know, because there's no way for me to find out exactly what icecast2 can do without fishing through mailing list archives, or taking the time to download it via cvs, run it, and futz with it myself. Is that the best way to advertise a feature set (or even a list of TODO features)?> > > my little understanding of what exactly icecast2 does (hobbled together > > from searches through the list archives, since there is no useful > > webpage information). > > Icecast2 does nothing but relay. It doesn't re-encode from Vorbis to MP3 > or vice versa, that's the source client's job. For example Ices2.I understand that, but I am lumping them into one, as an ices user I would have to upgrade to both at the same time, and they are both part of the same project. -- prothonotar at tarnation.dyndns.org "Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, /Momento Mori/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 593 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/icecast/attachments/20021228/60172229/part.pgp
On Sat, 28 Dec 2002, Aaron Gaudio wrote:> And there cannot be many people running it, judging > from the lack of servers listed in the icecast.org directory server > (unless everyone just suddenly became shy).icecast2 has no functional directory server support as yet. I don't know what's listed in yp.icecast.org, but icecast2 servers are not. Geoff. <p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Behold, Geoff Shang <gshang@uq.net.au> hath decreed:> On Sat, 28 Dec 2002, Aaron Gaudio wrote: > > > And there cannot be many people running it, judging > > from the lack of servers listed in the icecast.org directory server > > (unless everyone just suddenly became shy). > > icecast2 has no functional directory server support as yet. I don't know > what's listed in yp.icecast.org, but icecast2 servers are not. > > Geoff. >Fair enough. After grepping the archives, it appeared that the only response to "the directory servers don't appear to be working" was "use icecast2, you twit" (paraphrasing). Seeing as there's no kind of network status for the directory servers (and, after all, there are 15 successfully registered channels), there's no way of telling what is going on, or that anyone is even looking into the problem. Are they? Should I just delete yp.icecast.org from my config file? And furthermore, if directory server support is non-functional in icecast2.. that's just another reason that it's not ready to replace icecast1. -- prothonotar at tarnation.dyndns.org "Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, /Momento Mori/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 593 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/icecast/attachments/20021228/37af200d/part.pgp
Aaron Gaudio wrote:> If icecast.org is so broken, then someone ought to do what was > suggested on the list in November (looking through the archives): > put it out of its misery. Why are there no "official" releases?I already told you, there *are* official releases (or, to be exact, one release), but icecast.org hasn't seen an update due to problems. Don't you think that Michael Smith, for example, would be happy to finally get his hard work on Icecast2 "out there" so people can find it in a more prominent place? These are problems neither you nor I can help with, Xiph.org does that, when they have the time. Believe it or not, there's more important stuff than Icecast2 - and those who want it can get it, they just have to bother themselves a little more than usual.> That may be, but if the only "official" source I have to retrieve it > from is CVS, then it is not ready for prime time, no matter what its > stability may or may not be. First of all, grabbing the latest CVSYou're just trolling. Who cares? Would you trust a network engineer with decades of experience, or would he have to buy himself a shiny certificate for $1000? This "official"-blah is pointless, it's the product and the fact that it's released that matter. Do you *demand* that you get something for free, officially?> versions, then I don't know about them... why? because there's no > documentation of what to actually get from CVS.http://www.xiph.org/cvs.html - check out the 'icecast' module. If you're having trouble (CVS checkout hangs), either upgrade your client or don't use the -z parameter (I prefer the latter solution).> for quite a long time, but they never called it released until 1.0 > came out.I never said that it's a final release, I said "alpha release". It's not feature complete. It's not been in beta, yet. It does, what it does, with great reliability and performance. It does enough to be useful for most potential users at this point already.> The problem is, without having enough people running it, such stories > are allegorical. And there cannot be many people running it, judging > from the lack of servers listed in the icecast.org directory server > (unless everyone just suddenly became shy).There's no directory server supporting Icecast2 servers. I also wouldn't ever announce my stream on such a server, but maybe that's just me. (When I stream, then it's just a couple hours for friends that I know personally)> > I suggest you give it a try. Streaming Vorbis is fun. If you happen have > I'm not all that interested in streaming vorbis at this time, because > I have more mp3s than I do oggs. It's simpler for me to stream mp3s.Unless you're owning only low-bitrate MP3s, you'd still get more quality per bitrate with Vorbis (e.g. by re-encoding from 192kbps MP3 to -q 1 Vorbis (~80kbps) or lower). Especially if you're targeting at low bitrates (lower than in my example).> Does icecast2 only stream vorbis? If that's the case, then icecast1It does both Vorbis and MP3. I don't know about its MP3 streaming features, but stuff like metadata etc all works for Vorbis.> will never be obsolete so long as people want to stream mp3s (without > reencoding to ogg-- which introduces more loss into the stream). FromWell, I wouldn't re-encode from, say 24kbps MP3 to 24kbps Vorbis. That makes no sense - but if your MP3s are of sufficient quality, this shouldn't matter much.> my little understanding of what exactly icecast2 does (hobbled together > from searches through the list archives, since there is no useful > webpage information).Icecast2 does nothing but relay. It doesn't re-encode from Vorbis to MP3 or vice versa, that's the source client's job. For example Ices2.> > Uh, does any directory server still work? The Shoutcast people didn't > yp.mp3.de still works, although it does not display as much detailNice, I wonder if Icecast2 can announce a Vorbis stream there. :) Probably worth a try ... I don't know if Icecast2's directory server support works in the first place, since that's what I always disable (standard values don't work (yet) because of known reasons) first. Hmhm. <p>Moritz --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'icecast-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.