llvm dev - Jul 2016 - [lldb-dev] [cfe-dev] FYI: Landing the initial draft for an LLVM Code of Conduct

On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Robinson, Paul <paul.robinson at
sony.com>
wrote:
> I'm not sure why you're stuck on thinking I want an enumeration of
> offenses.
>
Sorry, it's because  i don't see a way to give you the below without it
:)
> What I'm looking for (and AFAICT also Rafael and maybe other people) is
a
> clearer statement that "offenses" outside of LLVM-defined spaces
need to
> meet a much higher bar to be considered problematic within the LLVM
> community.
>
How would you define that bar without defining the offenses?
IE what do you think would make it less subject to vague discretion than
what is there now other than defining the offenses?

> Someone tripping over my posting on the Militant Flat Earth Society should
> not get a free pass to boot me out of LLVM.
>
The single word "rare" in the current code doesn't feel like
enough.
>
I don't actually disagree with your criticism, IMHO, i just don't know
of a
way to generate more clarity.

--paulr
>
>
>
> *From:* Daniel Berlin [mailto:dberlin at dberlin.org]
> *Sent:* Friday, July 01, 2016 7:46 AM
> *To:* Robinson, Paul
> *Cc:* Rafael Espíndola; LLDB; cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org; llvm-dev;
> openmp-dev (openmp-dev at lists.llvm.org)
> *Subject:* Re: [cfe-dev] [llvm-dev] FYI: Landing the initial draft for an
> LLVM Code of Conduct
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Robinson, Paul <paul.robinson at
sony.com>
> wrote:
>
> | It's not sanely possible to enumerate all the possibilities
>
> Not looking for that.  Looking to avoid being trolled. 
("Trolled" isn't
> the right word here but I've lost track of what the right one is.
Hopefully
> my intent is clear enough.)
>
>
>
> I'm really not sure what you mean here.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> | I guess one could write "In addition, violations of this code
outside
> these spaces may, in rare
>
> cases, affect a person's ability to participate within them, when the
> conduct amounts to an egregious violation of the communitie's social
> standard."
>
>
>
> If that's what it means, is there a problem with writing it that way?
>
>
>
> What do you believe that explains that the older version did not?
>
> No matter how you write it, it will not precisely define the conduct that
> will or will not get you kicked out.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> | But it's not, in practice, any different.
>
> I concede it's not any different to a lawyer, which I know you are;
most
> of us are not lawyers.
>
>
> That's not really relevant of course - i meant that it's not any
different
> in practice than any other set of social conduct rules one is subject to.
>
>
> I doubt, for example, either the Google or Sony employee handbooks have
> precise bright lines on what conduct is okay and not okay.   Yet they still
> have serious consequences.
>
>
>
> Again, if it's not any different, is there a problem with writing it in
a
> way that provides clarity to the non-lawyer population?
>
>
>
> I don't think any way you write it will provide clarity as to precisely
> what conduct will and will not be okay.
>
>
>
> Anyway, since I don't think what you seem to want is possible, and I
think
> it's fine as-is.
>
> But I understand if you disagree.
>
>
>
>
>
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| I don't actually disagree with your criticism, IMHO, i just don't know
of a way to generate more clarity.

Well that's something anyway.  Thanks.
--paulr

From: Daniel Berlin [mailto:dberlin at dberlin.org]
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2016 10:32 AM
To: Robinson, Paul
Cc: Rafael Espíndola; LLDB; cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org; llvm-dev; openmp-dev
(openmp-dev at lists.llvm.org)
Subject: Re: [cfe-dev] [llvm-dev] FYI: Landing the initial draft for an LLVM
Code of Conduct



On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:05 AM, Robinson, Paul <paul.robinson at
sony.com<mailto:paul.robinson at sony.com>> wrote:
I'm not sure why you're stuck on thinking I want an enumeration of
offenses.
Sorry, it's because  i don't see a way to give you the below without it
:)
What I'm looking for (and AFAICT also Rafael and maybe other people) is a
clearer statement that "offenses" outside of LLVM-defined spaces need
to meet a much higher bar to be considered problematic within the LLVM
community.

How would you define that bar without defining the offenses?
IE what do you think would make it less subject to vague discretion than what is
there now other than defining the offenses?

Someone tripping over my posting on the Militant Flat Earth Society should not
get a free pass to boot me out of LLVM.
The single word "rare" in the current code doesn't feel like
enough.

I don't actually disagree with your criticism, IMHO, i just don't know
of a way to generate more clarity.

--paulr

From: Daniel Berlin [mailto:dberlin at dberlin.org<mailto:dberlin at
dberlin.org>]
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2016 7:46 AM
To: Robinson, Paul
Cc: Rafael Espíndola; LLDB; cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:cfe-dev at
lists.llvm.org>; llvm-dev; openmp-dev (openmp-dev at
lists.llvm.org<mailto:openmp-dev at lists.llvm.org>)
Subject: Re: [cfe-dev] [llvm-dev] FYI: Landing the initial draft for an LLVM
Code of Conduct



On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Robinson, Paul <paul.robinson at
sony.com<mailto:paul.robinson at sony.com>> wrote:
| It's not sanely possible to enumerate all the possibilities
Not looking for that.  Looking to avoid being trolled.  ("Trolled"
isn't the right word here but I've lost track of what the right one is.
Hopefully my intent is clear enough.)

I'm really not sure what you mean here.



| I guess one could write "In addition, violations of this code outside
these spaces may, in rare
cases, affect a person's ability to participate within them, when the
conduct amounts to an egregious violation of the communitie's social
standard."

If that's what it means, is there a problem with writing it that way?

What do you believe that explains that the older version did not?
No matter how you write it, it will not precisely define the conduct that will
or will not get you kicked out.



| But it's not, in practice, any different.
I concede it's not any different to a lawyer, which I know you are; most of
us are not lawyers.

That's not really relevant of course - i meant that it's not any
different in practice than any other set of social conduct rules one is subject
to.

I doubt, for example, either the Google or Sony employee handbooks have precise
bright lines on what conduct is okay and not okay.   Yet they still have serious
consequences.

Again, if it's not any different, is there a problem with writing it in a
way that provides clarity to the non-lawyer population?

I don't think any way you write it will provide clarity as to precisely what
conduct will and will not be okay.

Anyway, since I don't think what you seem to want is possible, and I think
it's fine as-is.
But I understand if you disagree.



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On 1 July 2016 at 18:32, Daniel Berlin via lldb-dev
<lldb-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> The single word "rare" in the current code doesn't feel
like enough.
>
> I don't actually disagree with your criticism, IMHO, i just don't
know of a
> way to generate more clarity.
Paul, Rafael, Daniel,

With the intention of being pragmatic and getting the draft out
(remember, it's *still* a draft), would having Daniel's new proposal
more comfortable?

"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may, in
rare cases, affect a person's ability to participate within them, when
the conduct amounts to an egregious violation of the community's
social standard."

If so, than I'd hope we could get this through and start discussing
the second part, the reporting and committee formation, which I think
it's much more important than the code itself.

cheers,
--renato

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Renato Golin [mailto:renato.golin at linaro.org]
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2016 2:52 PM
> To: Daniel Berlin
> Cc: Robinson, Paul; llvm-dev; LLDB; cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org; openmp-dev
> (openmp-dev at lists.llvm.org); Rafael Espíndola
> Subject: Re: [lldb-dev] [cfe-dev] [llvm-dev] FYI: Landing the initial
> draft for an LLVM Code of Conduct
> 
> On 1 July 2016 at 18:32, Daniel Berlin via lldb-dev
> <lldb-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >> The single word "rare" in the current code doesn't
feel like enough.
> >
> > I don't actually disagree with your criticism, IMHO, i just
don't know
> of a
> > way to generate more clarity.
> 
> Paul, Rafael, Daniel,
> 
> With the intention of being pragmatic and getting the draft out
> (remember, it's *still* a draft), would having Daniel's new
proposal
> more comfortable?
> 
> "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may, in
> rare cases, affect a person's ability to participate within them, when
> the conduct amounts to an egregious violation of the community's
> social standard."
Daniel claimed it was not different, even though he proposed the text.
I think it is better, as "egregious" (even though it is qualitative)
helps identify what "rare" circumstances would come under the policy.
As a non-lawyer I do think it's different.

Yes I would be happier with that added, although it might not be enough
for everyone who is unhappy with the code as-is.
Thanks,
--paulr
> 
> If so, than I'd hope we could get this through and start discussing
> the second part, the reporting and committee formation, which I think
> it's much more important than the code itself.
> 
> cheers,
> --renato