llvm dev - May 2016 - Resuming the discussion of establishing an LLVM code of conduct

On 5/5/2016 4:19 PM, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev wrote:
> Having a code of conduct like this is just as bad as having no code of
conduct at all. It trivializes the importance of a code of conduct and its
pretty much impossible to enforce.
Code of conduct should reflect the community standards, not define them. 
These standards come from the minds of the members of the community. A 
CoC that states this much and outlines the core principles underlying 
these standards is a statement of faith in the community itself. It 
stresses the fact that the community can enforce its own standards, and 
in doing so be guided by the core principle of respect, and not by a 
list of prohibited behaviors.

I believe that it will behoove each member treat others with respect and 
to oppose unacceptable actions. When the enforcement of such standards 
comes from the genuine conviction, and not simply from a document, it 
strenghtens the community as a whole. Pointing to a document only 
invites searching for potential loopholes.

-Krzysztof

-- 
Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. is a member of Code Aurora Forum, 
hosted by The Linux Foundation

For what it's worth, I think this is an improved version of the CoC, and
I'm OK with it. Thanks to Chandler and all those who have been working on
it.

It's not perfect --- and will never be --- but that's a good base to
settle
on. We can always evolve it later based on real life feedback.

My only suggestion for improvement would be to add something like this at
the top of the document (in rst parlance):

+The following behaviours are expected in the LLVM community:
+
+* `be friendly and patient`_,
+
+* `be welcoming`_,
+
+* `be considerate`_,
+
+* `be respectful`_,
+
+* `be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others`_,
+
+* `when we disagree, try to understand why`_.
+

First, this is the first thing you see when pointing a web brower to the
CoC page. Second, this would give a TL;DR summary of the CoC, hopefully
addressing the "Wall of Text" effect. And last, it acts as a table of
content, and people interested in the nitty-gritty details / context can
click the links or just continue to read the full text.

My 2 cents,
--
Arnaud


On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Krzysztof Parzyszek via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> On 5/5/2016 4:19 PM, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev wrote:
>
>> Having a code of conduct like this is just as bad as having no code of
>> conduct at all. It trivializes the importance of a code of conduct and
its
>> pretty much impossible to enforce.
>>
>
> Code of conduct should reflect the community standards, not define them.
> These standards come from the minds of the members of the community. A CoC
> that states this much and outlines the core principles underlying these
> standards is a statement of faith in the community itself. It stresses the
> fact that the community can enforce its own standards, and in doing so be
> guided by the core principle of respect, and not by a list of prohibited
> behaviors.
>
> I believe that it will behoove each member treat others with respect and
> to oppose unacceptable actions. When the enforcement of such standards
> comes from the genuine conviction, and not simply from a document, it
> strenghtens the community as a whole. Pointing to a document only invites
> searching for potential loopholes.
>
> -Krzysztof
>
> --
> Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. is a member of Code Aurora Forum, hosted
> by The Linux Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
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+1 for this TL;DR suggestion - you can guarantee most people would read 
< 7 short bullet points.

Cheers,

-Neil.

On 06/05/16 15:53, Arnaud Allard de Grandmaison via llvm-dev
wrote:
> For what it's worth, I think this is an improved version of the CoC, 
> and I'm OK with it. Thanks to Chandler and all those who have been 
> working on it.
>
> It's not perfect --- and will never be --- but that's a good base
to
> settle on. We can always evolve it later based on real life feedback.
>
> My only suggestion for improvement would be to add something like this 
> at the top of the document (in rst parlance):
>
> +The following behaviours are expected in the LLVM community:
> +
> +* `be friendly and patient`_,
> +
> +* `be welcoming`_,
> +
> +* `be considerate`_,
> +
> +* `be respectful`_,
> +
> +* `be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others`_,
> +
> +* `when we disagree, try to understand why`_.
> +
>
> First, this is the first thing you see when pointing a web brower to 
> the CoC page. Second, this would give a TL;DR summary of the CoC, 
> hopefully addressing the "Wall of Text" effect. And last, it acts
as a
> table of content, and people interested in the nitty-gritty details / 
> context can click the links or just continue to read the full text.
>
> My 2 cents,
> --
> Arnaud
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Krzysztof Parzyszek via llvm-dev 
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at
lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
>
>     On 5/5/2016 4:19 PM, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev wrote:
>
>         Having a code of conduct like this is just as bad as having no
>         code of conduct at all. It trivializes the importance of a
>         code of conduct and its pretty much impossible to enforce.
>
>
>     Code of conduct should reflect the community standards, not define
>     them. These standards come from the minds of the members of the
>     community. A CoC that states this much and outlines the core
>     principles underlying these standards is a statement of faith in
>     the community itself. It stresses the fact that the community can
>     enforce its own standards, and in doing so be guided by the core
>     principle of respect, and not by a list of prohibited behaviors.
>
>     I believe that it will behoove each member treat others with
>     respect and to oppose unacceptable actions. When the enforcement
>     of such standards comes from the genuine conviction, and not
>     simply from a document, it strenghtens the community as a whole.
>     Pointing to a document only invites searching for potential loopholes.
>
>     -Krzysztof
>
>     -- 
>     Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. is a member of Code Aurora Forum,
>     hosted by The Linux Foundation
>     _______________________________________________
>     LLVM Developers mailing list
>     llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>     http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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