I've done a little searching of the mailing lists before posting this and found a few threads on converting from mp3 to ogg but no one that I've seen ever answers the question. a .wav file is a digital format is it not? I'm no video/audio guru by any stretch so if I'm wrong on that point please correct me. But for this message I'm going to assume .wav is a digital format. .mp3 is a digital format as well right? Again I'm going to assume the same thing for the moment until corrected. Given that these two are digital formats and from what I can gather from the archives there is very little quality loss converting from .wav to .ogg at least from what I can see in the archives anyway. I see allot of "VERY BAD" type of things when talking about mp3 to ogg but nothing of the sort from wav to ogg. So one last assumption here is that there is very little loss from wav to ogg. That being the case WHY is there a problem converting from mpg (digital) to ogg? Why doesn't oggenc do that? Why does oggenc do wav (digital) but not mp3 (digital)? Give me a break here it just doesn't make any since? There are a TON of mp3 files out there and if one uses gnutella to get those files of course one doesn't have the source in which to do a "proper" rip to ogg. So this request for a utility to convert mp3 to ogg has probably been heard a million times before and will be heard a million times more until such a utility exists! Geez were talking about what would probably be the next "killer app" of the internet here. OF COURSE people will want to convert mp3 to ogg!!! Geez! I'm behind the ogg format 110% but it will NEVER go anywhere fast UNTIL utilities to convert mp3 to ogg with very little quality loss exists! So come on coders! Get with it! This utility MUST exist! And in many different forms! I personally feel oggenc should do it. Robert <p><p> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis/attachments/20020625/dcea6b6a/signature-0001.pgp
Robert Cole wrote:> That being the case WHY is there a problem converting from mpg (digital) > to ogg? Why doesn't oggenc do that? Why does oggenc do wav (digital) but > not mp3 (digital)?Technically, everything on a computer is digital. The issue is lossy vs. lossless compression. It is bad to convert from one lossy compressor (i.e., MP3) to another (i.e., Ogg Vorbis). WAVs, in general, are uncompressed or losslessly compressed. Of course, WAVs with lossy compression (like MP3) is possible; it is bad to convert these WAVs to Vorbis, as well. <p>> OF COURSE people will> want to convert mp3 to ogg!!!Why is that? Keep both MP3s and OGGs. <p> -- -:-:- David K. Gasaway -:-:- XNS : =David K Gasaway -:-:- Email: dave@gasaway.org -:-:- Web : dave.gasaway.org <p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 04:08:38PM -0700, Robert Cole wrote:> I see allot of "VERY BAD" type of things when talking about mp3 to ogg > but nothing of the sort from wav to ogg. So one last assumption here is > that there is very little loss from wav to ogg.<p>WAV --> MP3 lots of loss (at least at typical bitrates, eg, 128) MP3 --> WAV no additional loss, but the original loss isn't magically fixed. WAV --> OGG loss, not as much as mp3, but irrecoverable loss regardless. So, the end result is WAV --> MP3 --> WAV --> OGG == OGGs that sound like ass. You never get back what you lost converting to MP3, and you lose a little bit more going to OGG from WAV (the algos are not the same, and each loses slightly different things). Similarly, taking a CD, making a cassette recording, recording that cassette on a computer and then burning a CD will yield something markedly inferior to the original CD, regardless of whether or not it's 'digital'. Monty --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Here's a quick summary of why there isn't much interest in creating a utility like thi. MP3 is a lossy format, so is Ogg Vorbis. Both encoders remove parts of the audio according to their psycho-acoustic models. MP3 and Ogg use different models and techniques. So a wav->mp3->ogg file will sound worse than a wav->mp3 or a wav->ogg. (assuming the wav file is the original audio data, like a rip from a CD) Why lose more sound quality if you can already play it as an MP3? Yes wav, ogg, and mp3 store digital audio data, but the ogg and mp3 audio data is not the same as the original wav. Also, with Winamp you can do what you want and probably with some linux tools too. Just play the MP3 and set the output plugin to the Ogg Encoder. There's your conversion. It's just not recommended, but you can do it... I'm sure others can give you much clearer explanations and examples on why transcoding is bad. Later, Alan <p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
There is no good reason to convert mp3 to ogg. Tell us why you want to. Utilities do exist to do it, however, if you want to support the ogg vorbis format then DO NOT convert your mp3 files to ogg unless you will never share them with anyone else. It sounds like you need to do some study on mp3 artifacts. Ross.> -----Original Message----- > From: owner-vorbis@xiph.org [mailto:owner-vorbis@xiph.org]On Behalf Of > Robert Cole > Sent: Wednesday, 26 June 2002 11:09 > To: vorbis@xiph.org > Subject: [vorbis] MP3 to OGG conversion > > > I've done a little searching of the mailing lists before posting this > and found a few threads on converting from mp3 to ogg but no one that > I've seen ever answers the question. > > a .wav file is a digital format is it not? I'm no video/audio guru by > any stretch so if I'm wrong on that point please correct me. But for > this message I'm going to assume .wav is a digital format. .mp3 is a > digital format as well right? Again I'm going to assume the same thing > for the moment until corrected. > > Given that these two are digital formats and from what I can > gather from > the archives there is very little quality loss converting from .wav to > .ogg at least from what I can see in the archives anyway. > > I see allot of "VERY BAD" type of things when talking about mp3 to ogg > but nothing of the sort from wav to ogg. So one last > assumption here is > that there is very little loss from wav to ogg. > > That being the case WHY is there a problem converting from > mpg (digital) > to ogg? Why doesn't oggenc do that? Why does oggenc do wav > (digital) but > not mp3 (digital)? > > Give me a break here it just doesn't make any since? There > are a TON of > mp3 files out there and if one uses gnutella to get those files of > course one doesn't have the source in which to do a "proper" > rip to ogg. > > So this request for a utility to convert mp3 to ogg has probably been > heard a million times before and will be heard a million times more > until such a utility exists! Geez were talking about what > would probably > be the next "killer app" of the internet here. OF COURSE people will > want to convert mp3 to ogg!!! Geez! > > I'm behind the ogg format 110% but it will NEVER go anywhere > fast UNTIL > utilities to convert mp3 to ogg with very little quality loss exists! > > So come on coders! Get with it! This utility MUST exist! And in many > different forms! I personally feel oggenc should do it. > > Robert > > >--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
On Tue, 2002-06-25 at 19:08, Robert Cole wrote:> Given that these two are digital formats and from what I can gather from > the archives there is very little quality loss converting from .wav to > .ogg at least from what I can see in the archives anyway.This is because wav's are not lossy. There is always quality lost when encoding in to .mp3's and .ogg's, although you might not hear it depending: (1) on the your ears, (2) the quality of the original and, (3) the -q level used during encoding. Remember with Vorbis and mp3, which are lossy codecs, you are always trading quality for file size. The trick is to find a balance that suits you. Think of them as the audio versions of jpeg's.> I see allot of "VERY BAD" type of things when talking about mp3 to ogg > but nothing of the sort from wav to ogg. So one last assumption here is > that there is very little loss from wav to ogg.The reason is that you are losing quality twice, first by encoding into mp3 and then to Vorbis (from losy to losy). This is very different then encode straight from a wav file.> So this request for a utility to convert mp3 to ogg has probably been > heard a million times before and will be heard a million times more > until such a utility exists!Hum, last time I checked there are third party programs that does this, if you don't mind the lost in quality. Try this link: http://freshmeat.net/search?q=ogg+vorbis+mp3+convert Charles -- "I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated Development That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you." (By Vance Petree, Virginia Power) <p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello Robert, Wednesday, June 26, 2002, 7:08:38 AM, you wrote: RC> a .wav file is a digital format is it not? I'm no video/audio guru by RC> any stretch so if I'm wrong on that point please correct me. But for RC> this message I'm going to assume .wav is a digital format. .mp3 is a RC> digital format as well right? Again I'm going to assume the same thing RC> for the moment until corrected. They may be both digital formats, but they are not both "full" representations of the original audio file (not even getting into weather CD's are infact "full" representations of the original audio <grins>) Mp3 (and Ogg Vorbis) are both 'Lossy' compression formats - they are allowed to throw out information to reach the desired bitrate. The reason that they (can) sound so good is that they throw out noise "where we can't hear it" Only lossless files (either 'losslessly' compressed or the original) can be compressed with no loss of quality (other than, of course the loss that is incurred by the codec) RC> Given that these two are digital formats and from what I can gather from RC> the archives there is very little quality loss converting from .wav to RC> ogg at least from what I can see in the archives anyway. which is what makes Ogg Vorbis so good <grins> <p>Here's a question. (and someone may hit me with a cluebat as i really don't have *any* idea how Vorbis compares to Mp3 on a low level) Someone was recently commenting that bitrate peeling would require some sort of re-quantizing. Is it possible to convert information designed for mp3's filterbank to that of ogg's? or are the formats way too fundamentally different? (There's still a rather large question i suppose as to weather one should bother at all as one could just use an mp3 player and not be subject to quality loss (due to transcoding) *at all* ) <p>- -- Best regards, Brendan mailto:reaper@post1.com ==== "In a soul without a mind, in a body without a heart, i'm missing every part" - Massive Attack... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBPRiMSmTEJfkS6tEjEQLfMwCgn6PIHK0eAXN+B+JGWcZznsm4QfQAn1FR fckLYGsdrtlXdJNNgKz2y4Ot =lrZW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- <p><p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Robert Cole wrote:> I'm behind the ogg format 110% but it will NEVER go anywhere fast UNTIL > utilities to convert mp3 to ogg with very little quality loss exists!Just a little addition to the other answers, or why no tool can do this without letting the result sound like "ass", like Monty pointed out. :) MP3 and Vorbis are not compatible, so you can't transcode - that means, translating the compressed data from one format to the other without any further loss doesn't work. It's mathematically impossible (at least that's what my brain stored about this topic), so all you can do is re-encode. Besides, Vorbis will try hard to reproduce the crappy MP3 sound and waste bits on its artifacts instead of the music. Anyone listening to .ogg files that were created that way will wonder how crappy Vorbis is, so if you REALLY think that you have to do this, don't share those .ogg files, please. This reminds me of another guy who wanted to re-encode from .ogg to .mp3 because he wanted his music collection to contain only one file extension (!). No, there was no other reason than that, not even portable players. The other way round, although nice from an advocate's point of view, is just as silly. Vorbis and MP3 can co-exist happily, and when you just rip all your new music from CD to .ogg the percentage of MP3s in your collection will decrease, giving you the nice feeling of doing the right thing - for your ears and the Internet by supporting the upcoming, free multimedia standard. :) <p>Moritz --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Since you don't seem to understand the technicalities, perhaps an analogy will help. Consider baking a plain cake. You take ingredients like butter, eggs, sugar and flour and "encode" them into a cake by mixing and baking. You can also chocolate cake by using the same ingredients + chocolate and following a similar process. What you are asking for is a recipe to turn a plain cake into a chocolate cake. You can't turn the plain cake back into the original ingredients any more than you can recover the original wave file from an MP3 - it's a one way process. You could "re-encode" by dissolving the plain cake in water and stirring chocolate powder into the swill and baking it. The result would be a form of chocolate cake, but it would not be very palatable. The "chefs" here think that it's a VERY BAD" idea to pass of this vastly inferior form of chocolate cake as the genuine chocolate cake made from original ingredients. Chris Wise <p>######################################## This e-mail message and any attachments are confidential and are intended for the addressee named above. They may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this information you must not use, copy, distribute or disclose the information to any person other than the addressee. If you have received the information in error please return it to the sender by replying to it and then delete the information from your computer. Remember, internet e-mails are not necessarily secure. This e-mail and any attachments may be subject to copyright and the moral right of employees. Electronically transmitted copies of print or graphic works or broadcasts to staff or students are governed by the Digital Agenda amendments to the Copyright Act 1968. Guidelines are available at http://www.swin.edu.au/lib/copyright/ Swinburne University of Technology respects your privacy. The University’s Information Privacy Policy may be accessed from the University’s web site (www.swin.edu.au) through the Human Resources page. ######################################## --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
I'm sure you're tired of all the explanations, but let's put this simple: You can view a wav file as the "original source". A mp3 or ogg file is a compressed, reduced version of that file. You could compare it with a CD (the "original source") and a cassette tape copy. "wav -> ogg" is like "cd -> cassette" "wav -> mp3" is also like like "cd -> cassette" thus, "mp3 -> ogg" is like "cd -> cassette -> cassette" E.g. you loose even more quality when doing the second copy/conversion. Get it? :) In other words, it's not very good to convert your mp3:s to ogg, because they will sound worse than the mp3s. However, making new ogg versions of your CD collection is a good idea! / David <p>Robert Cole wrote:> I've done a little searching of the mailing lists before posting this > and found a few threads on converting from mp3 to ogg but no one that > I've seen ever answers the question. > > a .wav file is a digital format is it not? I'm no video/audio guru by > any stretch so if I'm wrong on that point please correct me. But for > this message I'm going to assume .wav is a digital format. .mp3 is a > digital format as well right? Again I'm going to assume the same thing > for the moment until corrected. > > Given that these two are digital formats and from what I can gather from > the archives there is very little quality loss converting from .wav to > .ogg at least from what I can see in the archives anyway. > > I see allot of "VERY BAD" type of things when talking about mp3 to ogg > but nothing of the sort from wav to ogg. So one last assumption here is > that there is very little loss from wav to ogg. > > That being the case WHY is there a problem converting from mpg (digital) > to ogg? Why doesn't oggenc do that? Why does oggenc do wav (digital) but > not mp3 (digital)? > > Give me a break here it just doesn't make any since? There are a TON of > mp3 files out there and if one uses gnutella to get those files of > course one doesn't have the source in which to do a "proper" rip to ogg. > > So this request for a utility to convert mp3 to ogg has probably been > heard a million times before and will be heard a million times more > until such a utility exists! Geez were talking about what would probably > be the next "killer app" of the internet here. OF COURSE people will > want to convert mp3 to ogg!!! Geez! > > I'm behind the ogg format 110% but it will NEVER go anywhere fast UNTIL > utilities to convert mp3 to ogg with very little quality loss exists! > > So come on coders! Get with it! This utility MUST exist! And in many > different forms! I personally feel oggenc should do it. > > Robert > ><p><p>--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.