Hi, As I´ve understood things, the Ogg Vorbis format supports more that two channels (stereo). Is there any tools to encode x sourcefiles into one .ogg file? I am a musican and am thrilled with the ide of makeing music in surround (or in more than stereo). This leads to my next question: is there (developing) any decoders for multichannel oggs to, let us say, 4.1 or 5.1 surround? Wouldn´t it be nice to have surround support in a winamp/xmms-plugin? I guess the common way for decoders is to merage all channels into stereo (right or left, perhaps both)? Regards, Andreas Karlsson http://www.ft2.net --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Hello Andreas, There was a few threads some months ago on multi-channel oggs and various surround formats. I suggest you search the mailing list archives for the word 'ambisonics' You should find relevant threads in that era. I have some issues with current surround sound recordings as they lack phase and position information in the sound matrix. If you are serious about proper surround recordings It will take some effort on the part of the vorbis project and current players to keep and reproduce proper phase/location data. Myles -----Original Message----- From: Andreas Karlsson [mailto:a.karlsson@bredband.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 13:58 To: vorbis@xiph.org Subject: [vorbis] Multichannel files Hi, As I´ve understood things, the Ogg Vorbis format supports more that two channels (stereo). Is there any tools to encode x sourcefiles into one .ogg file? I am a musican and am thrilled with the ide of makeing music in surround (or in more than stereo). This leads to my next question: is there (developing) any decoders for multichannel oggs to, let us say, 4.1 or 5.1 surround? Wouldn´t it be nice to have surround support in a winamp/xmms-plugin? I guess the common way for decoders is to merage all channels into stereo (right or left, perhaps both)? Regards, Andreas Karlsson http://www.ft2.net --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
I think multi-channel is one area where Ogg could really find a niche for itself. The reasons: 1) 5.1 Music is becoming more popular. There are DTS 5.1 audio discs in use now. There isn't really a way to stick these into a convenient playback form that I'm aware of though. 2) I'm not aware of a widely available MP3 encoder that supports a 5.1 configuration. There are extensions to the MP3 format that allow 5.1, but I've never seen them used anywhere for the average person (I think European DVD's use 5.1 MP3 or something perhaps). 3) It seems formats like Dolby Digital and DTS are not being pushed onto consumers very hard. Show me where I can get a DD or DTS encoder to encode my files. I'm not so sure you will see this pushed on to people either. 4) I really have no idea if formats like WMA and others support 5.1. But I can't think of any of these as being too friendly to the average person this way either. 5) It's really easy to add 5.1 support to an Ogg encoder, and it will be available widely. 6) On the PC writing or extending a player to handle 5.1 audio would be pretty easy, if a sound card supports it (e.g. something like an SB Live 5.1). 7) There was talk earlier of why a PS1/PS2 could or couldn't handle Vorbis playback as an entertainment device. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I think this would be excellent. A PS2 player could be written that plays Vorbis files. This player could also do real-time DTS or Dolby Digital encoding. So if a user plays a 5.1 format Vorbis file, the PS2 switches into DTS output mode, decodes the Vorbis into 5.1, and then re-encodes it into DTS 5.1 and sends it out the optical. The re-encoding may introduce a bit of artifact, but not likely if done right. You then get the benefit of a digital connection to your 5.1 setup. I know I use my PS2 a lot to play CD's, just because it has a digital connection. But Sony's CD player is a horrible thing and I hate changing CD's every 45 minutes. I'd really like to copy 15 or 20 albums onto a CD and let it rip through a good Vorbis player (of course it could play MP3's, etc., as well). I'd really like to start a project like this myself, but I fear two problems 1) Sony would not approve such a player, since it allows the possibility of playing pirated music (hey Sony is a big music company), and 2) I'm not sure the PS2's laser can read CD-RW discs. I think it can read CD-R's but I'm personally not a big fan of only burning something once. Other than those logistical issues I think the technology is pretty simple. I know I'd be willing to spend $30 on some PS2 player software that would transform my PS2 into a wicked high quality audio player. Thanks, Dave. -----Original Message----- From: Andreas Karlsson [mailto:a.karlsson@bredband.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:36 PM To: vorbis@xiph.org Subject: RE: [vorbis] Multichannel files Hi Myles, Thank you for your reply. I´m indeed very serious about trying to make music in surround. I find it a very intresting way to extend the expression of music. As every one knows, stereo is made to make the soundscape whider and more expressive, surround will add new ways to place the listner in the center and carry him/her away. I´ve now read the threads and I´m not trying to make any technical suggestions. I´m just experssing my desire to find new fronteirs. Regards, Andreas Karlsson http://www.ft2.net At 15:03 2001-11-14 -0500, you wrote:>Hello Andreas, > >There was a few threads some months ago on multi-channel oggs and various >surround formats. I suggest you search the mailing list archives for the >word 'ambisonics' You should find relevant threads in that era. > >I have some issues with current surround sound recordings as they lackphase>and position information in the sound matrix. If you are serious about >proper surround recordings It will take some effort on the part of the >vorbis project and current players to keep and reproduce proper >phase/location data. > >Myles > >-----Original Message----- >From: Andreas Karlsson [mailto:a.karlsson@bredband.net] >Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 13:58 >To: vorbis@xiph.org >Subject: [vorbis] Multichannel files > > >Hi, > >As I´ve understood things, the Ogg Vorbis format supports more that two >channels (stereo). Is there any tools to encode x sourcefiles into one .ogg >file?--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
The DTS or DD "transcoding" feature of a PS2 player would of course have to be licensed. This fee would be included in the PS2 player software you are buying. This software has to be commercial anyway so I don't see a big deal here. This is the absolutely only way to say get a PS2 to transport a 5.1 signal to your 5.1 receiver. To the user who bought the software, they would only see something like "OggEnc" or "OggDrop" as their way of getting 5.1 audio on to a CD for the PS2 player to play. And that software is freely available without patent issues. So to me there is a use for 5.1 Oggs (how else would you get highly compressed 5.1 files on to a CD from any 5.1 source material you had, without any patent issues?). Anyway, regardless of the PS2, without transcoding to a common 5.1 format a receiver can understand, you are stuck with a mess of 6 analog cables to sort out, and the possible noise interference they bring with them. I've got a pretty wicked 5.1 setup, and some of my analog sources get a lot of interference because of how long my cables are, etc., so I'd rather go digital. As well, pretty much all but the cheaper AV receivers have 5.1 analog inputs. I've had 3 and they all have them. Thanks, Dave. -----Original Message----- From: Wilson [mailto:defiler@null.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 1:06 PM To: vorbis@xiph.org Subject: Re: [vorbis] Multichannel files There are two ways to decode multi-channel audio. In hardware, or in software. Hardware: A receiver or processor takes a Dolby Digital (for example) stream and converts it into something your amps/speakers are interested in. Software: Your PC decodes a 5.1 audio stream into six discrete audio streams and passes them to analog output. Sound cards that can handle what is described in the second case are fairly rare. The Hercules Game Theatre XP, the M-Audio Delta Theatre ($$$), etc. Most people don't have them. Doing real 5.1 output from the PC without a receiver that locks you into Dolby Digital is either expensive (full pre/pro combo) or rare (analog 5.1 multimedia speakers with LFE management. Hard to come by.) To play a multi-channel Ogg file through a receiver, the receiver would have to directly support Ogg, and the sound card drivers would have to support pushing the Ogg through Toslink or S/PDIF. An alternative is to transcode the Ogg output on the fly into AC-3 for transport, but then we're not patent-free anymore. Either there's something I'm missing, or I don't see much of a use for 5.1 Oggs. "In the grim future of Hello Kitty there is only war..." http://supremetyrant.com/HK40K.jpg --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
> Unless DTS restrictions have been changed since eMedia magazine ran an > extensive comparison of DTS and DD, DTS just *isn't* gonna happen, unless > someone has the guts (and smarts) to reverse engineer another DVDtechnology.> As I don't own a hi-fi audio system to go with my PS2, I'm not familiarwith> the PS2's capabilities regarding outputting DD. Or perhaps, code could be > written to send raw audio tracks down the optical pipe, bypassing the DTS > requirement.I guess restrictions have been changed. Real-time DTS encoding on a PS2 is being done right now. Look at games like SSX:Tricky and NHL 2002. You can license this technology from DTS. I authored the DTS Interactive SDK so I have a bit of a clue as to how this all works. From what I learned with that, it would be very easy to do very high quality real-time DTS encoding as well. No reason why Dolby Digital wouldn't work great either, but I think DTS allows for a bit more quality. I think either DTS or Dolby would probably be happy to license this to anybody interested.> I'm sure more will become clear when GNU/Linux is available for purchaseon> PS2 from Sony ::drool drool::. Then magic will be made ::-)I don't know much about the Linux kit for PS2, but I think anything done there will be useless unless you are a fellow Linux kit user. It's basically a hobbyist machine. If you make a program on the Linux kit, I don't think it's going to run on a consumer PS2. Certainly you'd need a way to manufacture and encrypt your PS2 programs on to a CD/DVD at least, and that can only be done through Sony with a license. That's really all too bad because if you could author stuff on that I'd have been there and done it already. Don't take all my word for that though as I haven't actually researched it, and that's just my gut feeling. Thanks, Dave. --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
At 07:57 PM 11/14/01 +0100, you wrote:>Hi, > >As I´ve understood things, the Ogg Vorbis format supports more that two >channels (stereo). Is there any tools to encode x sourcefiles into one .ogg >file?Oggenc will happily encode multi-channel wav files, though it doesn't merge multiple files for you. However, two caveats: 1) Decoders. I don't think anyone deals with this right, yet. 2) Channel mappings - we haven't defined a way to do this, yet. So all you have is N independent channels, the file won't say that one is front- left, one front-right, one centre, etc. Michael>I am a musican and am thrilled with the ide of makeing music in surround >(or in more than stereo). >This leads to my next question: is there (developing) any decoders for >multichannel oggs to, let us say, 4.1 or 5.1 surround? Wouldn´t it be nice >to have surround support in a winamp/xmms-plugin? >I guess the common way for decoders is to merage all channels into stereo >(right or left, perhaps both)? > >Regards, >Andreas Karlsson >http://www.ft2.net > > > >--- >8 ---- >List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ >Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ >To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' >containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. >Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. >--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Wilson (defiler@null.net) wrote :> There are two ways to decode multi-channel audio. In hardware, or in > software. > Hardware: A receiver or processor takes a Dolby Digital (for example) stream > and converts it into something your amps/speakers are interested in. > Software: Your PC decodes a 5.1 audio stream into six discrete audio streams > and passes them to analog output. > > Sound cards that can handle what is described in the second case are fairly > rare. The Hercules Game Theatre XP, the M-Audio Delta Theatre ($$$), etc.I have a 4 year old 4 channel sound card ( Ensoniq AudioPCI , 20 USD ). Almost all newer cards support 5.1 output, like the SB Live! 5.1 series.> Most people don't have them. Doing real 5.1 output from the PC without a > receiver that locks you into Dolby Digital is either expensive (full pre/pro > combo)There was a surround amplifier available for 1000 ATS in Austria recently. That is cca. 80 USD.> or rare (analog 5.1 multimedia speakers with LFE management. Hard to > come by.)Creative/Cambridge SoundWorks DeskTop Theater™ 5.1 DTT2200 : 128 euro ~= 100 USD Can be bought in any computer shop.> To play a multi-channel Ogg file through a receiver, the receiver would have > to directly support Ogg, and the sound card drivers would have to support > pushing the Ogg through Toslink or S/PDIF. An alternative is to transcode > the Ogg output on the fly into AC-3 for transport, but then we're not > patent-free anymore.Just decode to 6 independent channels and send them thru the analog outputs of the 5.1 sound card.> Either there's something I'm missing, or I don't see much of a use for 5.1 > Oggs.Now if someone wrote a program that uses 4 four channels of my AudioPCI and the 2 of the on-board sound to get 5.1 , that would be cool :-) -- David Balazic -------------- "Be excellent to each other." - Bill S. Preston, Esq., & "Ted" Theodore Logan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
Wilson (defiler@null.net) wrote : Please CC replies to my private email ( click REPLY-ALL or something like that )> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Balazic" <david.balazic@uni-mb.si> > To: <defiler@null.net>; <vorbis@xiph.org> > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 8:45 AM > Subject: ATTENTION Re: [vorbis] Multichannel files > > > I noticed that my previous message is not very complete so I send here an > "enhanced > > version". Please disregard the old one an reply to this one only. ( you > can delete > > the ATTENTION word from subject ) > > > > Wilson (defiler@null.net) wrote : > > > > > There are two ways to decode multi-channel audio. In hardware, or in > > > software. > > > Hardware: A receiver or processor takes a Dolby Digital (for example) > stream > > > and converts it into something your amps/speakers are interested in. > > > Software: Your PC decodes a 5.1 audio stream into six discrete audio > streams > > > and passes them to analog output. > > > > > > Sound cards that can handle what is described in the second case are > fairly > > > rare. The Hercules Game Theatre XP, the M-Audio Delta Theatre ($$$), > etc. > > > > I have a 4 year old 4 channel sound card ( Ensoniq AudioPCI , 20 USD ). > > Almost all newer cards support 5.1 output, like the SB Live! 5.1 series. > > That is 6 analog outputs. > > A Live! Player 5.1 is 40 USD here at my place. > > > Actually, the Audigy (replaces the Live!) lets you do EITHER discrete > subwoofer OR discrete center in analog mode. > http://www.3dsoundsurge.com/reviews/AudigyEI/Audigy-p2.htmlA quote from the page : "The Digital out/Center-subwoofer can, just like the Live 5.1 card, be used for either digital output or when in analog mode as the center/subwoofer output." This page says that it is either : - digital out put - a combined analog center/subwoofer output. It is a stereo connector. One channel is the Center and the other is the subwoofer.> In other words, it doesn't do what we need. All the SB cards are gearedYes it does.> toward 5.1 output via S/PDIF / Whatever to a receiver/decoder.Wrong, obviously.> > > Most people don't have them. Doing real 5.1 output from the PC without a > > > receiver that locks you into Dolby Digital is either expensive (full > pre/pro > > > combo) > > > > There was a surround amplifier available for 1000 ATS in Austria recently. > > That is cca. 64 USD. It has 4(6) analog inputs and can drive four speakers > > ( it has 4 amplifiers ). You need another normal 2 channel amplifier to > get > > an 5.1 setup. I believe it also has a Dolby ProLogic decoder, but that is > not > > of interest to us. Is has about 50 Watts power per speaker. > > I meant expensive for quality equal to a cheap 5.1 receiver. I don't mean to > insult a $64 amp, so I won't say anything about it. :)See below "about expensive"> > > > Or you could use 3 normal stereo amplifiers. I also believe most newer > "movie" > > or AV amplifiers have 6 channel analog input too. > > Yes, many do have 6 analog channels.. Again, the trick is getting 6-channel > analog output from your PC. > Also, these things are expensive.See below "about expensive"> > > > > > or rare (analog 5.1 multimedia speakers with LFE management. Hard to > > > come by.) > > > > Creative/Cambridge SoundWorks DeskTop TheaterT 5.1 DTT2200 : 128 euro ~= > 112 USD > > It about 156USD in Slovenia. > > > > The DTT2200 does not offer 6 discrete channels. Yes, it accepts analogYes, it does.> inputs, but not 6 of them. Thus, you don't have a true center channel or LFE.Yes, it does. Yes, you have.> Here's a (crappy) photo of the connector panel I found on the net. See? The > DTT2200 appears to generate a matrixed center channel from the left and > right channels. > http://www.tech-gods.com/reviews/227/busysub.jpgOn page 11 ( eleven ) of the DT2200 manual ( available at ftp://ftp.europe.creative.com/pub/online_library/speakers/DTT2200_Users_Guide/English.pdf ) it is clear that it has 6 analog inputs.> > > It can be bought in any computer shop. > > > > > To play a multi-channel Ogg file through a receiver, the receiver would > have > > > to directly support Ogg, and the sound card drivers would have to > support > > > pushing the Ogg through Toslink or S/PDIF. An alternative is to > transcode > > > the Ogg output on the fly into AC-3 for transport, but then we're not > > > patent-free anymore. > > > > Just decode to 6 independent channels and send them thru the analog > outputs > > of the 5.1 sound card. > > > > Now if someone wrote a program that uses 4 four channels of my AudioPCI > and > > the 2 of the on-board sound to get 5.1 , that would be cool :-) > > > > Yes, that would be cool. Just get two "4 speaker" sound cards, and you'd > support all 6 speakers. Not exactly a mainstream concept, though.As volsung said , synchronization is a problem. Maybe checking the position ( most card support sample accurate position report of the current played sample, AFAIK ) and dropping samples on the faster DAC ? It is probably a difficult to solve problem, because everyone is avoiding it like the plague :-) About expensive : What are you complaining about ? What is expensive , compared to what ? A DT2200 speaker + a Live! Player 5.1 is about 180 USD. That is very cheap for a 5.1 system if you ask me. It is maybe not hi-fi , but a single hi-fi speaker costs that much and you need 6 of them ! And an amplifier ( 100 USD minimum ). -- David Balazic -------------- "Be excellent to each other." - Bill S. Preston, Esq., & "Ted" Theodore Logan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.