I'm forwarding this on to the Vorbis users list because though it was initially addressed to me it's not really a problem I can deal with (though I give a few suggestions and discussion below anyway, of questionable accuracy). This was initially from a query to me about ogg123 WAV to stdout, but upon reply I got this in addition to discussion about WAV outuput, so I've cut this out and will reply to his ogg123 concerns individually unless anyone has further discussion (I think we've discussed the issue on the list quite enough already). This is from Frank Klemm <pfk@fuchs.offl.uni-jena.de>. I'd suggest replies be CC-ed to him because judging from his response he is probably not on the list. On Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:37:17AM +0200, Frank Klemm wrote:> I can't install newer versions of Ogg. > > It's the only program which makes permanently problems. First I uninstalled > all Ogg Vorbis stuff. Then I install it from the CVS and it never works. > This also happens on several fresh installed distributions.CVS HEAD libvorbis is in active work (normally it shouldn't be, but AFAIK Monty oopsed and committed his in-progress work to the HEAD instead of a branch). Try the RC2 tarballs from vorbis.com before experimenting further on CVS. But I continue my reply because I don't think the build system is appreciably changed since RC2.> I was able only to install Ogg Vorbis on one system, after some patches, because the CVS > sources need ALSA, which I do not have.Only libao. If you do not have the ALSA headers (which are all that are needed anyway; you don't actually have to have ALSA installed), the configure script should disable compiling the ALSA plugin. If it's not, then there is some problem in the build system at present. If the rc2 tarballs (from vorbis.com) don't work either, I'd start considering oddities on your own system.> There seems to be something very dirty inside Ogg Vorbis. > Try to install Ogg Vorbis on a 100% Ogg Vorbis free system. > > checking if the linker (/usr/bin/ld) is GNU ld... yes > checking whether the linker (/usr/bin/ld) supports shared libraries... yes[...]> checking dynamic linker characteristics... Linux ld.so > checking if libtool supports shared libraries... yes > checking whether to build shared libraries... yes > checking whether to build static libraries... yes> checking host system type... i686-pc-linux-gnu[...]> checking for Ogg... no > *** Could not run Ogg test program, checking why... > *** The test program compiled, but did not run. This usually means > *** that the run-time linker is not finding Ogg or finding the wrong > *** version of Ogg. If it is not finding Ogg, you'll need to set your > *** LD_LIBRARY_PATH environment variable, or edit /etc/ld.so.conf to point > *** to the installed location Also, make sure you have run ldconfig if that > *** is required on your system > *** > *** If you have an old version installed, it is best to remove it, although > *** you may also be able to get things to work by modifying LD_LIBRARY_PATH > configure: error: must have Ogg installed! > f:/home/cvs/vorbis # find /usr/ -name '*ogg*so*' > /usr/local/lib/libogg.so.0 > /usr/local/lib/libogg.so.0.2.0 > /usr/local/lib/libogg.so > f:/home/cvs/vorbis # echo $LD_LIBRARY_PATH > /usr/local/lib > f:/home/cvs/vorbis #It's possible that the test compile is not actually using LD_LIBRARY_PATH (i.e. something is setting it to a different value instead of appending to it) but that is unlikely at this point. Have your tried adding /usr/local/lib to /etc/ld.so.conf and/or checking config.log to ensure that it's not some other problem that the configure script happens to hit when trying to run the test program?> Before this the following was executed: > > cd ao; ./autogen.sh; make; make install; ldconfig > cd ../ogg; ./autogen.sh; make; make install; ldconfig > cd ../vorbis > > I'm not the only one who has problems installing Ogg Vorbis, > most people try this once and then forget Ogg Vorbis forever. > > It should be possible to install Ogg Vorbis from CVS with one command, not > with so much command in a proper order. And it should work.The xiph.org CVS method is by far the standard method for installing other programs from CVS. See probably 95% of SourceForge projects for backing on that. The script ./autogen.sh is specifically designed to prepare the tree for a build, and then the standard make and make install steps as for most any Linux software. The things that make Ogg Vorbis any more complicated is that there are a few more modules that have interdependancies (perhaps someone should add a small README / INSTALL file to CVS root if this is possible just giving the order of modules to build), but you seem to have figured that out, and that you must run ldconfig after each module (except the tools) is installed, which is perfectly reasonable for installing libraries, and you figured that out also. The install target could run ldconfig, but for various reasons, not limited to cleanly building on autobuilders for distributions like Debian (which all needed modules currently do without any problem), it does not. As for the install not working, that suprises me quite a bit. There were problems like this in the early days of Vorbis for a few users, but with the number of users so much larger now, the building is very much foolproof, and should have definately worked if you did indeed do what you say you did (which is, with a few minor cosmetic differences, the standard build procedure). The only thing I can think of at the moment, and a definate possibility, is an automake / autoconf bug on your system, because the build process from CVS relies heavily on these working correctly. For all those whom you say tried Vorbis and failed, why didn't they ask for help on the vorbis lists (vorbis@xiph.org, subscription information from Majordomo@xiph.org or at http://xiph.org) or IRC (#vorbis on the OpenProjects.net network)? There are many people out there with experience who can help. There also prebuilt packages for most common distributions (RPM and Deb), and the Vorbis libraries are already in the Debian archive and should be released with the next version and are installable with nothing more than 'apt-get install vorbis-tools' for the distributed tools (including oggenc and ogg123) or the libraries will be automatically installed by programs that depend on them, including parts of KDE. I'm forwarding this to the Vorbis users list (see top of message) so that those responsible for the build system can discuss with you to determine the source of the problem. -- Kenneth Arnold <ken@arnoldnet.net> <HR NOSHADE> <UL> <LI>application/pgp-signature attachment: stored </UL> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: part Type: application/octet-stream Size: 190 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis/attachments/20011007/defc687e/part-0001.obj
On Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 05:11:43PM -0400, Kenneth Arnold wrote:> > I'm forwarding this on to the Vorbis users list because though it was > initially addressed to me it's not really a problem I can deal with > (though I give a few suggestions and discussion below anyway, of > questionable accuracy). > > This was initially from a query to me about ogg123 WAV to stdout, but > upon reply I got this in addition to discussion about WAV outuput, so > I've cut this out and will reply to his ogg123 concerns individually > unless anyone has further discussion (I think we've discussed the > issue on the list quite enough already). > > This is from Frank Klemm <pfk@fuchs.offl.uni-jena.de>. I'd suggest > replies be CC-ed to him because judging from his response he is > probably not on the list. > > On Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:37:17AM +0200, Frank Klemm wrote: > > I can't install newer versions of Ogg. > > > > It's the only program which makes permanently problems. First I uninstalled > > all Ogg Vorbis stuff. Then I install it from the CVS and it never works. > > This also happens on several fresh installed distributions. > > CVS HEAD libvorbis is in active work (normally it shouldn't be, but > AFAIK Monty oopsed and committed his in-progress work to the HEAD > instead of a branch). Try the RC2 tarballs from vorbis.com before > experimenting further on CVS. But I continue my reply because I don't > think the build system is appreciably changed since RC2. > > > I was able only to install Ogg Vorbis on one system, after some patches, because the CVS > > sources need ALSA, which I do not have. > > Only libao. If you do not have the ALSA headers (which are all that > are needed anyway; you don't actually have to have ALSA installed), > the configure script should disable compiling the ALSA plugin. >I don't have installed ALSA. This is no reason not to compile a codec. A codec should be able to compile with a C compiler without Megabytes of configure stuff. Otherwise there's something wrong with it.> If it's not, then there is some problem in the build system at present. If > the rc2 tarballs (from vorbis.com) don't work either, I'd start > considering oddities on your own system. >The problem exists for more than 12 months. It's a permanently problem. It is not a temporary bug in the CVS.> > There seems to be something very dirty inside Ogg Vorbis. > > Try to install Ogg Vorbis on a 100% Ogg Vorbis free system. > > > > checking if the linker (/usr/bin/ld) is GNU ld... yes > > checking whether the linker (/usr/bin/ld) supports shared libraries... yes > [...] > > checking dynamic linker characteristics... Linux ld.so > > checking if libtool supports shared libraries... yes > > checking whether to build shared libraries... yes > > checking whether to build static libraries... yes > > > checking host system type... i686-pc-linux-gnu > [...] > > checking for Ogg... no > > *** Could not run Ogg test program, checking why... > > *** The test program compiled, but did not run. This usually means > > *** that the run-time linker is not finding Ogg or finding the wrong > > *** version of Ogg. If it is not finding Ogg, you'll need to set your > > *** LD_LIBRARY_PATH environment variable, or edit /etc/ld.so.conf to point > > *** to the installed location Also, make sure you have run ldconfig if that > > *** is required on your system > > *** > > *** If you have an old version installed, it is best to remove it, although > > *** you may also be able to get things to work by modifying LD_LIBRARY_PATH > > configure: error: must have Ogg installed! > > f:/home/cvs/vorbis # find /usr/ -name '*ogg*so*' > > /usr/local/lib/libogg.so.0 > > /usr/local/lib/libogg.so.0.2.0 > > /usr/local/lib/libogg.so > > f:/home/cvs/vorbis # echo $LD_LIBRARY_PATH > > /usr/local/lib > > f:/home/cvs/vorbis # > > It's possible that the test compile is not actually using > LD_LIBRARY_PATH (i.e. something is setting it to a different value > instead of appending to it) but that is unlikely at this point. Have > your tried adding /usr/local/lib to /etc/ld.so.conf and/or checking > config.log to ensure that it's not some other problem that the > configure script happens to hit when trying to run the test program? >All tested. No usable results. At least the error message is nonsense.> > Before this the following was executed: > > > > cd ao; ./autogen.sh; make; make install; ldconfig > > cd ../ogg; ./autogen.sh; make; make install; ldconfig > > cd ../vorbis > > > > I'm not the only one who has problems installing Ogg Vorbis, > > most people try this once and then forget Ogg Vorbis forever. > > > > It should be possible to install Ogg Vorbis from CVS with one command, not > > with so much command in a proper order. And it should work. > > The xiph.org CVS method is by far the standard method for installing > other programs from CVS. See probably 95% of SourceForge projects for > backing on that. The script ./autogen.sh is specifically designed to > prepare the tree for a build, and then the standard make and make > install steps as for most any Linux software. The things that make Ogg > Vorbis any more complicated is that there are a few more modules that > have interdependancies (perhaps someone should add a small README / > INSTALL file to CVS root if this is possible just giving the order of > modules to build), but you seem to have figured that out, and that you > must run ldconfig after each module (except the tools) is installed, > which is perfectly reasonable for installing libraries, and you > figured that out also. The install target could run ldconfig, but for > various reasons, not limited to cleanly building on autobuilders for > distributions like Debian (which all needed modules currently do > without any problem), it does not. > > As for the install not working, that suprises me quite a bit. There > were problems like this in the early days of Vorbis for a few users, > but with the number of users so much larger now, the building is very > much foolproof, and should have definately worked if you did indeed do > what you say you did (which is, with a few minor cosmetic differences, > the standard build procedure). The only thing I can think of at the > moment, and a definate possibility, is an automake / autoconf bug on > your system, because the build process from CVS relies heavily on > these working correctly. >There at least 3 fully different systems where Ogg Vorbis can't be installed. Common is, that the base installation is something around 24 months old and no "Yet Another Linux Sound System" is installed.> For all those whom you say tried Vorbis and > failed, why didn't they ask for help on the vorbis lists > (vorbis@xiph.org, subscription information from Majordomo@xiph.org or > at http://xiph.org) or IRC (#vorbis on the OpenProjects.net network)? > There are many people out there with experience who can help. There > also prebuilt packages for most common distributions (RPM and Deb), > and the Vorbis libraries are already in the Debian archive and should > be released with the next version and are installable with nothing > more than 'apt-get install vorbis-tools' for the distributed tools > (including oggenc and ogg123) or the libraries will be automatically > installed by programs that depend on them, including parts of KDE. >No Debian please. Software should be installed within 10 minutes. I don't want to study the xxxth mailing list. Most software works in this way. And for updating 15 software package (without personal patches) you still need one day. If all software would behave like Ogg Vorbis this takes a month. -- Frank Klemm --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
> > It's the only program which makes permanently problems. First I uninstalled > > all Ogg Vorbis stuff. Then I install it from the CVS and it never works....this is the first we've heard of your problems. Please report difficulties you have else they won't be fixed (if they're problems), or we can't help (if it's pilot error).> > This also happens on several fresh installed distributions.Report problems, and include *verbatim logs of install commands and errors*. We can tell nothing useful from your above statement. There are so many UNIX distributions out there, and so many users who set up nonstandard systems, that expecting 100% flawless reliability from automake/autoconf is not practically reasonable (unfortunate, but true). This is not one Redmond-standardized flavor of Windows on a single processor family. If you want to press a single button and have the world magically installed, please use prepackaged binaries made for your distribution, else be bothered to do a little debugging when an install fails. We do fix problems that are reported carefully and in detail. Open Source only improves when people are dedicated to being *helpful*.> > I was able only to install Ogg Vorbis on one system, after some patches, because the CVS > > sources need ALSA, which I do not have.You either have some portion of ALSA installed unknowingly (headers?), or autoconf screwed up, which is hardly unknown. Reading config.log would likely make all clear. Hell, forward it to me, and I'll read it for you.> > There seems to be something very dirty inside Ogg Vorbis.Well, yes, it's called libtool, but we don't really have a choice.> > Try to install Ogg Vorbis on a 100% Ogg Vorbis free system.I do it daily. For yucks and grins, I just did it Ferretfish.xiph.org, an internal NAT box here, which has never seen Ogg before. Five minutes. Nary a warning. Why? *Because we fix all the problems people report for Debian*. Report problems *verbatim* or was can do nothing.> > checking for Ogg... no > > *** Could not run Ogg test program, checking why... > > *** The test program compiled, but did not run. This usually means > > *** that the run-time linker is not finding Ogg or finding the wrong > > *** version of Ogg. If it is not finding Ogg, you'll need to set your > > *** LD_LIBRARY_PATH environment variable, or edit /etc/ld.so.conf to point > > *** to the installed location Also, make sure you have run ldconfig if that > > *** is required on your system > > *** > > *** If you have an old version installed, it is best to remove it, although > > *** you may also be able to get things to work by modifying LD_LIBRARY_PATH > > configure: error: must have Ogg installed! > > f:/home/cvs/vorbis # find /usr/ -name '*ogg*so*' > > /usr/local/lib/libogg.so.0 > > /usr/local/lib/libogg.so.0.2.0 > > /usr/local/lib/libogg.so > > f:/home/cvs/vorbis # echo $LD_LIBRARY_PATH > > /usr/local/lib > > f:/home/cvs/vorbis #Are the includes installed? Can your GCC find them? Do you actually know what really went wrong? No, you don't, you didn't look (or you didn't tell us, same result). If you don't know how, asking (instead of accusing us of purposely spiting you) is likely to get a better response. You're an experienced developer, Frank. You're being lazy. What I mean is: If you're going to make a bug report (and we thank you for making such a report), please be meticulous such that the report is actually *useful*. This mail wasn't a bug report, it was an accusation.> > Before this the following was executed: > > > > cd ao; ./autogen.sh; make; make install; ldconfig > > cd ../ogg; ./autogen.sh; make; make install; ldconfig > > cd ../vorbis > > > > I'm not the only one who has problems installing Ogg Vorbis, > > most people try this once and then forget Ogg Vorbis forever.Source is not the easiest thing on earth. Most Linux users today would still be in over their heads on a Mac or Windows. Yet, we do our best. I spend more time answering angry email from people who don't understand that Vorbis needs a soundcard to play music than I do actually coding. And then I get self-righteous mail like this from a developer whom I know is damned well capable of determining the actual problem and letting us know so we can fix it. But he'd rather flame, wasting more of my time... I could spend the rest of my life on building a foolproof cross platform build system that works everywhere with one click. Or I could actually do my job. I don't have time for both. We use the best build tools we have available, which are obviously wanting. You obviously noticed this.> > It should be possible to install Ogg Vorbis from CVS with one command, not > > with so much command in a proper order. And it should work.I should add a requirement to the source README: "Your pointy hat must be at least this tall." If it *could* actually work, and still deliver all the functionality non-newbie users want, that would be great. As it is, that's a project that could take years to make foolproof, and would require constant tracking of new platforms and changes to old ones. And the changes would likely piss off anyone who is familiar with the normal UNIX/CVS/GNU way of doing things. Don't forget all the optional builds just in case people want to install only one piece (or upgrade only one piece). Please be careful about system config files and user defaults. Also please mind the users who have multiple versions installed in different install paths. The system is set up to be flexible. Flexible and powerful are not the same thing as easy. Bugs are also inevitable when dealing with real-world style platform complexity. Burying this complexity behind an even simpler interface does not give users more power, it just renders them even more helpless when something goes wrong. ...would you prefer a system that simply says "Installation failed" after a single button press, or the system we have now that actually gives you a chance to determine the problem? In system A, both newbies *and* experienced developers are mostly helpless. In any case, the build system you want is much harder than sticking a toplevel makefile on things. If you think it's easy, I suggest you try it. Please embarrass us by showing us what build-fools we are. Make it bulletproof against the people in over their heads who don't even realize they have no compiler installed. Make sure the system doesn't rob the source wizards of the power they need to get their own work done. If you can make such a build system work (and are willing to maintain it), you would be doing us a *much* appreciated service. That was *not* sarcasm. Otherwise, please use prepackaged binaries. They make Ogg effortless. eg, 'apt-get install vorbis-tools' and answer 'yes'. Monty --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.