Xen users - May 2012 - Best way to differentiate between virtual servers and non-virtual servers

Hi Xen users,

I am recently trying to figure out how to know which server is virtualized.
I only have a network connectivity which means that my clients are all in
remote locations. My server to control all the clients should know which
one is virtual machine and which one is not. I want to approach in
different ways:

1) without any software installation, I may have to characterize the
virtual machines by watching network features or behavior. But, I assume
that every hypervisor should have different features and behaviors.
2) by watching network connectivity (address), if I can traceroute the
client computer, I may be able to figure out whether it is virtualized or
not because the traffic usually goes through the hypervisor (not only xen,
but all other hypervisors.. I need to confirm this).
3) by installing a simple software, I can communicate with the software via
a network connection. In this case, I do not want users to set up their
virtualization environment because there should be a mistake during
installation, which will bring a lot of troubles in the future. I want to
make the automatic diagnosis.
4) user configuration: this is the worst approach as I mentioned in 2)

Please, give out your brilliant ideas on this problem.

Thank you,

Jinho


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Well i am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but this is an 
interesting question which i don''t fully follow.

So, you have your own server running an operating system as Dom0, on it 
is running a Xen Hypervisor that is hosting one ore more guest OS? You 
than have remote clients that connect to the server and you are asking 
how could each client determine if they are connecting to a virtual 
server OR if they are connecting to a non-virtual server?

I guess to me it is confusing since if you have more than one server 
that are managed by you, you know exactly what is virtual and what is 
not SO you can pass that information onto your clients... :)

> 3) by installing a simple software, I can communicate with the 
> software via a network connection. In this case, I do not want users 
> to set up their virtualization environment because there should be a 
> mistake during installation, which will bring a lot of troubles in the 
> future. I want to make the automatic diagnosis.
What simple software would you install and where would you install it to?



> Hi Xen users,
>
> I am recently trying to figure out how to know which server is 
> virtualized. I only have a network connectivity which means that my 
> clients are all in remote locations. My server to control all the 
> clients should know which one is virtual machine and which one is not. 
> I want to approach in different ways:
>
> 1) without any software installation, I may have to characterize the 
> virtual machines by watching network features or behavior. But, I 
> assume that every hypervisor should have different features and behaviors.
> 2) by watching network connectivity (address), if I can traceroute the 
> client computer, I may be able to figure out whether it is virtualized 
> or not because the traffic usually goes through the hypervisor (not 
> only xen, but all other hypervisors.. I need to confirm this).
> 3) by installing a simple software, I can communicate with the 
> software via a network connection. In this case, I do not want users 
> to set up their virtualization environment because there should be a 
> mistake during installation, which will bring a lot of troubles in the 
> future. I want to make the automatic diagnosis.
> 4) user configuration: this is the worst approach as I mentioned in 2)
>
> Please, give out your brilliant ideas on this problem.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Jinho
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xen.org
> http://lists.xen.org/xen-users


_______________________________________________
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jinho hwang wrote:
>2) by watching network connectivity (address), if I can traceroute 
>the client computer, I may be able to figure out whether it is 
>virtualized or not because the traffic usually goes through the 
>hypervisor (not only xen, but all other hypervisors.. I need to 
>confirm this).
Incorrect.
If setup in bridged mode, then the host/hypervisor and it''s network 
layer is as invisible to the outside as an ordinary L2 network switch 
would be. Only if the host/hypervisor was setup in routed mode would 
you see it as a hop in traceroute - but that would not be 
distinguishable from any other router.


It might help if instead of describing ways you can think of doing 
it, you described what you actually want to achieve. And why !

-- 
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

First of all, virtual machines are not controllable. Users will install our
software voluntarily.

Simple software has a network connectivity and functions that might help to
figure out whether it is a virtual machine or not.

Jinho

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:54 AM, <cyberhawk001@gmail.com> wrote:
>  Well i am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but this is an
> interesting question which i don''t fully follow.
>
> So, you have your own server running an operating system as Dom0, on it is
> running a Xen Hypervisor that is hosting one ore more guest OS? You than
> have remote clients that connect to the server and you are asking how could
> each client determine if they are connecting to a virtual server OR if they
> are connecting to a non-virtual server?
>
> I guess to me it is confusing since if you have more than one server that
> are managed by you, you know exactly what is virtual and what is not SO you
> can pass that information onto your clients... :)
>
>
>
>  3) by installing a simple software, I can communicate with the software
> via a network connection. In this case, I do not want users to set up their
> virtualization environment because there should be a mistake during
> installation, which will bring a lot of troubles in the future. I want to
> make the automatic diagnosis.
>
> What simple software would you install and where would you install it to?
>
>
>
>
> Hi Xen users,
>
> I am recently trying to figure out how to know which server is
> virtualized. I only have a network connectivity which means that my clients
> are all in remote locations. My server to control all the clients should
> know which one is virtual machine and which one is not. I want to approach
> in different ways:
>
> 1) without any software installation, I may have to characterize the
> virtual machines by watching network features or behavior. But, I assume
> that every hypervisor should have different features and behaviors.
> 2) by watching network connectivity (address), if I can traceroute the
> client computer, I may be able to figure out whether it is virtualized or
> not because the traffic usually goes through the hypervisor (not only xen,
> but all other hypervisors.. I need to confirm this).
> 3) by installing a simple software, I can communicate with the software
> via a network connection. In this case, I do not want users to set up their
> virtualization environment because there should be a mistake during
> installation, which will bring a lot of troubles in the future. I want to
> make the automatic diagnosis.
> 4) user configuration: this is the worst approach as I mentioned in 2)
>
> Please, give out your brilliant ideas on this problem.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Jinho
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing listXen-users@lists.xen.orghttp://lists.xen.org/xen-users
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xen.org
> http://lists.xen.org/xen-users
>


-- 
Jinho Hwang
PhD Student
Department of Computer Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052
hwang.jinho@gmail.com (email)
276.336.0971 (Cell)
202.994.4875 (fax)
070.8285.6546 (myLg070)


_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xen.org
http://lists.xen.org/xen-users

Hi Simon,

Thanks for you reply. I understand your saying about 2). I think under
current situations (with many different hypervisors and their settings) it
might be hard to detect whether the machine is virtual or not with only one
method. That''s why I listed many possible ways to detect it. If you can
share your idea how to detect the virtual machine, it might help many
people who try to know the current states of the machine.

I always wanted to know whether my machine is virtualized or not. Also, my
current project wanted me to find a way to do it.

Please, share your idea if you have any.

Thanks,

Jinho

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Simon Hobson
<linux@thehobsons.co.uk>wrote:
> jinho hwang wrote:
>
>  2) by watching network connectivity (address), if I can traceroute the
>> client computer, I may be able to figure out whether it is virtualized
or
>> not because the traffic usually goes through the hypervisor (not only
xen,
>> but all other hypervisors.. I need to confirm this).
>>
>
> Incorrect.
> If setup in bridged mode, then the host/hypervisor and it''s
network layer
> is as invisible to the outside as an ordinary L2 network switch would be.
> Only if the host/hypervisor was setup in routed mode would you see it as a
> hop in traceroute - but that would not be distinguishable from any other
> router.
>
>
> It might help if instead of describing ways you can think of doing it, you
> described what you actually want to achieve. And why !
>
> --
> Simon Hobson
>
> Visit
http://www.**magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/<http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/>for
books by acclaimed
> author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
> Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
>


-- 
Jinho Hwang
PhD Student
Department of Computer Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052
hwang.jinho@gmail.com (email)
276.336.0971 (Cell)
202.994.4875 (fax)
070.8285.6546 (myLg070)


_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xen.org
http://lists.xen.org/xen-users

jinho hwang wrote:
>I always wanted to know whether my machine is virtualized or not. 
>Also, my current project wanted me to find a way to do it.
I''m sorry, but I really really have no idea what you are trying to
achieve.

For machines under my control (ie those I set up or administer) then 
I know if they are real or virtual - it''s rather obviously a 
different process to setup a machine on bare metal compared with 
setting one up as a virtual machine.

For machines I''m not responsible for, then it''s not my
business and I
probably have no need to know !


So, just what is it that you want to know about ? What is "my 
machine" ? Why do you need to know ?


To give some examples ...

a) You are renting "web hosting" somewhere.
You are only renting the web hosting, as long as it works to an 
acceptable level of performance then you have no need to know. There 
should be nothing related to it being real/virtualised which in any 
way affects your ability to host your site.

b) You use a shared computer in the office.
Again, as long as it provides the facilities/runs the applications 
your employer needs your to use then it makes no difference to you 
whether it''s a real or virtual host.

c) You have your own computer and are trying to do something with it.
An example where it makes a difference might be running a MythTV 
backed with TV tuners (which can be an issue when virtualised). 
However, if you cannot tell the difference just by watching the boot 
messages then you have much bigger issues than just knowing which 
type of machine you are using.

-- 
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.

Hi Simon,

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, if I have a control of computers, then I might be able to figure out
what is virtualized or not. Maybe, it might not necessary to know about it
if I am a user of machines. However, think that if I want to control all
the machines, either cloud or non-cloud setting, users are using.
Sometimes, the machine should have a problem or need upgrades, and I may
have to reboot the computer  to resolve the problem or upgrades. But if the
computer is a cloud hosting machine which has lots of virtual machines
running on the top of that. If I reboot that machine, it might cause a big
trouble because it will reboot all the virtual machines running on it.
Instead, I may have to live migrate all the virtual machines to another
physical machine, then I can reboot the system.

As the perspective of the infrastructure manager, not a user, knowing a
machine is a virtual machine or a physical machine helps how to manage the
machine.

I hope you understand what I am trying to do.

Jinho

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Simon Hobson
<linux@thehobsons.co.uk>wrote:
> jinho hwang wrote:
>
>  I always wanted to know whether my machine is virtualized or not. Also,
>> my current project wanted me to find a way to do it.
>>
>
> I''m sorry, but I really really have no idea what you are trying to
achieve.
>
> For machines under my control (ie those I set up or administer) then I
> know if they are real or virtual - it''s rather obviously a
different
> process to setup a machine on bare metal compared with setting one up as a
> virtual machine.
>
> For machines I''m not responsible for, then it''s not my
business and I
> probably have no need to know !
>
>
> So, just what is it that you want to know about ? What is "my
machine" ?
> Why do you need to know ?
>
>
> To give some examples ...
>
> a) You are renting "web hosting" somewhere.
> You are only renting the web hosting, as long as it works to an acceptable
> level of performance then you have no need to know. There should be nothing
> related to it being real/virtualised which in any way affects your ability
> to host your site.
>
> b) You use a shared computer in the office.
> Again, as long as it provides the facilities/runs the applications your
> employer needs your to use then it makes no difference to you whether
it''s
> a real or virtual host.
>
> c) You have your own computer and are trying to do something with it.
> An example where it makes a difference might be running a MythTV backed
> with TV tuners (which can be an issue when virtualised). However, if you
> cannot tell the difference just by watching the boot messages then you have
> much bigger issues than just knowing which type of machine you are using.
>
>
> --
> Simon Hobson
>
> Visit
http://www.**magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/<http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/>for
books by acclaimed
> author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
> Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xen.org
> http://lists.xen.org/xen-users
>


-- 
Jinho Hwang
PhD Student
Department of Computer Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052
hwang.jinho@gmail.com (email)
276.336.0971 (Cell)
202.994.4875 (fax)
070.8285.6546 (myLg070)


_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xen.org
http://lists.xen.org/xen-users

On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 13:02 -0400, jinho hwang wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
> Thanks for your reply. 
> 
> First of all, virtual machines are not controllable. Users will
> install our software voluntarily. 
> 
> Simple software has a network connectivity and functions that might
> help to figure out whether it is a virtual machine or not.
Although I think that your idea is quite confusing, you could always
check out MAC addresses (unless someone is not using the standard or
default ranges) that may help you differentiate between
physical/virtual.

In terms of your project, you might want to consider that if you have a
person who is logging into a server and performing upgrades/reboots and
has no idea that it could be running multiple virtual machines... that
person shouldn''t be logging into that server to begin with.

Tait

Hi Tait,

Thanks for your reply.

Let''s say my project is an automated management with client-server
setting,
and it can control cloud or non-cloud machines. One small software
installed in a client side can receive a command from the server, and it
executes the command and replies the results to the server. It might give a
company a good management tool to control the large system.

I am thinking there are no solid sole method for this problem. It might
help to overlap a couple of conditions to check. Like you said, MAC can be
one method to check, but it is hard to be sure whether the MAC address is
virtual machine''s MAC or physical machine''s MAC. I need to
make sure which
one.

Jinho

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 10:19 AM, Tait Clarridge <tait@taiter.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 13:02 -0400, jinho hwang wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Thanks for your reply.
> >
> > First of all, virtual machines are not controllable. Users will
> > install our software voluntarily.
> >
> > Simple software has a network connectivity and functions that might
> > help to figure out whether it is a virtual machine or not.
>
> Although I think that your idea is quite confusing, you could always
> check out MAC addresses (unless someone is not using the standard or
> default ranges) that may help you differentiate between
> physical/virtual.
>
> In terms of your project, you might want to consider that if you have a
> person who is logging into a server and performing upgrades/reboots and
> has no idea that it could be running multiple virtual machines... that
> person shouldn''t be logging into that server to begin with.
>
> Tait
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xen.org
> http://lists.xen.org/xen-users
>


-- 
Jinho Hwang
PhD Student
Department of Computer Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052
hwang.jinho@gmail.com (email)
276.336.0971 (Cell)
202.994.4875 (fax)
070.8285.6546 (myLg070)


_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xen.org
http://lists.xen.org/xen-users

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

jinho hwang wrote:
>As the perspective of the infrastructure manager, not a user, 
>knowing a machine is a virtual machine or a physical machine helps 
>how to manage the machine.
Right, so after all that, you are talking about how you - as the 
administrator of a machine - determine if it''s bare metal (non 
virtualised) system, or a virtualised system, or is a host for 
virtualised machines.

I don''t know about other virtualisation technologies, but with Xen 
you just need to look at what''s installed.

If the hypervisor is installed, and there''s a /proc/xen directory 
with stuff in it, and Xen commands (eg "xm list") do stuff - then 
you''ll know that this is a host system running under Xen.

If there''s no Xen stuff installed, and no /proc/xen directory - then 
you''re likely running on bare metal.


However, you really should not be having to do this. You should 
**KNOW** without having to go looking around on a machine what it is. 
If you are working on machines, and your management systems (even 
just a basic list of what you have or are responsible for) does not 
give you this information then you need to address that.

Traditionally people would keep "some sort of list" which would say 
"what is it", "where is it", and "what''s the
admin/root password".
These days that should also include "is it a virtual host or client" 
- and have an easy way to find out "what virtual machines does this 
host" or "where is this hosted" depending on whether
it''s a host or
guest.

-- 
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Simon Hobson
<linux@thehobsons.co.uk>wrote:
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>
>
> jinho hwang wrote:
>
>  As the perspective of the infrastructure manager, not a user, knowing a
>> machine is a virtual machine or a physical machine helps how to manage
the
>> machine.
>>
>
> Right, so after all that, you are talking about how you - as the
> administrator of a machine - determine if it''s bare metal (non
virtualised)
> system, or a virtualised system, or is a host for virtualised machines.
>
> I don''t know about other virtualisation technologies, but with Xen
you
> just need to look at what''s installed.
>
> If the hypervisor is installed, and there''s a /proc/xen directory
with
> stuff in it, and Xen commands (eg "xm list") do stuff - then
you''ll know
> that this is a host system running under Xen.
>
> If there''s no Xen stuff installed, and no /proc/xen directory -
then
> you''re likely running on bare metal.
>
>
> However, you really should not be having to do this. You should **KNOW**
> without having to go looking around on a machine what it is. If you are
> working on machines, and your management systems (even just a basic list of
> what you have or are responsible for) does not give you this information
> then you need to address that.
>
> Traditionally people would keep "some sort of list" which would
say "what
> is it", "where is it", and "what''s the
admin/root password". These days
> that should also include "is it a virtual host or client" - and
have an
> easy way to find out "what virtual machines does this host" or
"where is
> this hosted" depending on whether it''s a host or guest.
>
>
> --
> Simon Hobson
>
> Visit
http://www.**magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/<http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/>for
books by acclaimed
> author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
> Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xen.org
> http://lists.xen.org/xen-users
>
Sorry for the top-posting.

simon hobson wrote:
If the hypervisor is installed, and there''s a /proc/xen directory with
stuff in it, and Xen commands (eg "xm list") do stuff - then
you''ll know
that this is a host system running under Xen.

If there''s no Xen stuff installed, and no /proc/xen directory - then
you''re
likely running on bare metal.

I agree with Xen that I can have information from /proc/xen for both
virtual machine and domain0.

simon hobson wrote:
However, you really should not be having to do this. You should **KNOW**
without having to go looking around on a machine what it is. If you are
working on machines, and your management systems (even just a basic list of
what you have or are responsible for) does not give you this information
then you need to address that.

Traditionally people would keep "some sort of list" which would say
"what
is it", "where is it", and "what''s the admin/root
password". These days
that should also include "is it a virtual host or client" - and have
an
easy way to find out "what virtual machines does this host" or
"where is
this hosted" depending on whether it''s a host or guest.

However, think about this case. I want to distribute a client software to
my customers and they can install wherever they want to control from the
management server. While customers install the client, they may insert a
wrong information. Later, it will bring a big trouble when the manager
thinks he reboots a virtual machine, but actually he reboots a physical
machine which has lots of virtual machines on it. I can not trust
customers'' setting. I need to make sure that the machine is a virtual
machine or not.

Thanks for your consideration.

Jinho


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