jinho hwang
2012-May-15 13:36 UTC
Best way to differentiate between virtual servers and non-virtual servers
Hi Xen users, I am recently trying to figure out how to know which server is virtualized. I only have a network connectivity which means that my clients are all in remote locations. My server to control all the clients should know which one is virtual machine and which one is not. I want to approach in different ways: 1) without any software installation, I may have to characterize the virtual machines by watching network features or behavior. But, I assume that every hypervisor should have different features and behaviors. 2) by watching network connectivity (address), if I can traceroute the client computer, I may be able to figure out whether it is virtualized or not because the traffic usually goes through the hypervisor (not only xen, but all other hypervisors.. I need to confirm this). 3) by installing a simple software, I can communicate with the software via a network connection. In this case, I do not want users to set up their virtualization environment because there should be a mistake during installation, which will bring a lot of troubles in the future. I want to make the automatic diagnosis. 4) user configuration: this is the worst approach as I mentioned in 2) Please, give out your brilliant ideas on this problem. Thank you, Jinho _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xen.org http://lists.xen.org/xen-users
cyberhawk001@gmail.com
2012-May-15 14:54 UTC
Re: Best way to differentiate between virtual servers and non-virtual servers
Well i am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but this is an interesting question which i don''t fully follow. So, you have your own server running an operating system as Dom0, on it is running a Xen Hypervisor that is hosting one ore more guest OS? You than have remote clients that connect to the server and you are asking how could each client determine if they are connecting to a virtual server OR if they are connecting to a non-virtual server? I guess to me it is confusing since if you have more than one server that are managed by you, you know exactly what is virtual and what is not SO you can pass that information onto your clients... :)> 3) by installing a simple software, I can communicate with the > software via a network connection. In this case, I do not want users > to set up their virtualization environment because there should be a > mistake during installation, which will bring a lot of troubles in the > future. I want to make the automatic diagnosis.What simple software would you install and where would you install it to?> Hi Xen users, > > I am recently trying to figure out how to know which server is > virtualized. I only have a network connectivity which means that my > clients are all in remote locations. My server to control all the > clients should know which one is virtual machine and which one is not. > I want to approach in different ways: > > 1) without any software installation, I may have to characterize the > virtual machines by watching network features or behavior. But, I > assume that every hypervisor should have different features and behaviors. > 2) by watching network connectivity (address), if I can traceroute the > client computer, I may be able to figure out whether it is virtualized > or not because the traffic usually goes through the hypervisor (not > only xen, but all other hypervisors.. I need to confirm this). > 3) by installing a simple software, I can communicate with the > software via a network connection. In this case, I do not want users > to set up their virtualization environment because there should be a > mistake during installation, which will bring a lot of troubles in the > future. I want to make the automatic diagnosis. > 4) user configuration: this is the worst approach as I mentioned in 2) > > Please, give out your brilliant ideas on this problem. > > Thank you, > > Jinho > > > _______________________________________________ > Xen-users mailing list > Xen-users@lists.xen.org > http://lists.xen.org/xen-users_______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xen.org http://lists.xen.org/xen-users
Simon Hobson
2012-May-15 15:36 UTC
Re: Best way to differentiate between virtual servers and non-virtual servers
jinho hwang wrote:>2) by watching network connectivity (address), if I can traceroute >the client computer, I may be able to figure out whether it is >virtualized or not because the traffic usually goes through the >hypervisor (not only xen, but all other hypervisors.. I need to >confirm this).Incorrect. If setup in bridged mode, then the host/hypervisor and it''s network layer is as invisible to the outside as an ordinary L2 network switch would be. Only if the host/hypervisor was setup in routed mode would you see it as a hop in traceroute - but that would not be distinguishable from any other router. It might help if instead of describing ways you can think of doing it, you described what you actually want to achieve. And why ! -- Simon Hobson Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
jinho hwang
2012-May-15 17:02 UTC
Re: Best way to differentiate between virtual servers and non-virtual servers
Hi, Thanks for your reply. First of all, virtual machines are not controllable. Users will install our software voluntarily. Simple software has a network connectivity and functions that might help to figure out whether it is a virtual machine or not. Jinho On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:54 AM, <cyberhawk001@gmail.com> wrote:> Well i am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but this is an > interesting question which i don''t fully follow. > > So, you have your own server running an operating system as Dom0, on it is > running a Xen Hypervisor that is hosting one ore more guest OS? You than > have remote clients that connect to the server and you are asking how could > each client determine if they are connecting to a virtual server OR if they > are connecting to a non-virtual server? > > I guess to me it is confusing since if you have more than one server that > are managed by you, you know exactly what is virtual and what is not SO you > can pass that information onto your clients... :) > > > > 3) by installing a simple software, I can communicate with the software > via a network connection. In this case, I do not want users to set up their > virtualization environment because there should be a mistake during > installation, which will bring a lot of troubles in the future. I want to > make the automatic diagnosis. > > What simple software would you install and where would you install it to? > > > > > Hi Xen users, > > I am recently trying to figure out how to know which server is > virtualized. I only have a network connectivity which means that my clients > are all in remote locations. My server to control all the clients should > know which one is virtual machine and which one is not. I want to approach > in different ways: > > 1) without any software installation, I may have to characterize the > virtual machines by watching network features or behavior. But, I assume > that every hypervisor should have different features and behaviors. > 2) by watching network connectivity (address), if I can traceroute the > client computer, I may be able to figure out whether it is virtualized or > not because the traffic usually goes through the hypervisor (not only xen, > but all other hypervisors.. I need to confirm this). > 3) by installing a simple software, I can communicate with the software > via a network connection. In this case, I do not want users to set up their > virtualization environment because there should be a mistake during > installation, which will bring a lot of troubles in the future. I want to > make the automatic diagnosis. > 4) user configuration: this is the worst approach as I mentioned in 2) > > Please, give out your brilliant ideas on this problem. > > Thank you, > > Jinho > > > _______________________________________________ > Xen-users mailing listXen-users@lists.xen.orghttp://lists.xen.org/xen-users > > > > _______________________________________________ > Xen-users mailing list > Xen-users@lists.xen.org > http://lists.xen.org/xen-users >-- Jinho Hwang PhD Student Department of Computer Science The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 hwang.jinho@gmail.com (email) 276.336.0971 (Cell) 202.994.4875 (fax) 070.8285.6546 (myLg070) _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xen.org http://lists.xen.org/xen-users
jinho hwang
2012-May-16 12:03 UTC
Re: Best way to differentiate between virtual servers and non-virtual servers
Hi Simon, Thanks for you reply. I understand your saying about 2). I think under current situations (with many different hypervisors and their settings) it might be hard to detect whether the machine is virtual or not with only one method. That''s why I listed many possible ways to detect it. If you can share your idea how to detect the virtual machine, it might help many people who try to know the current states of the machine. I always wanted to know whether my machine is virtualized or not. Also, my current project wanted me to find a way to do it. Please, share your idea if you have any. Thanks, Jinho On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Simon Hobson <linux@thehobsons.co.uk>wrote:> jinho hwang wrote: > > 2) by watching network connectivity (address), if I can traceroute the >> client computer, I may be able to figure out whether it is virtualized or >> not because the traffic usually goes through the hypervisor (not only xen, >> but all other hypervisors.. I need to confirm this). >> > > Incorrect. > If setup in bridged mode, then the host/hypervisor and it''s network layer > is as invisible to the outside as an ordinary L2 network switch would be. > Only if the host/hypervisor was setup in routed mode would you see it as a > hop in traceroute - but that would not be distinguishable from any other > router. > > > It might help if instead of describing ways you can think of doing it, you > described what you actually want to achieve. And why ! > > -- > Simon Hobson > > Visit http://www.**magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/<http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/>for books by acclaimed > author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as > Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books. >-- Jinho Hwang PhD Student Department of Computer Science The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 hwang.jinho@gmail.com (email) 276.336.0971 (Cell) 202.994.4875 (fax) 070.8285.6546 (myLg070) _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xen.org http://lists.xen.org/xen-users
Simon Hobson
2012-May-16 13:00 UTC
Re: Best way to differentiate between virtual servers and non-virtual servers
jinho hwang wrote:>I always wanted to know whether my machine is virtualized or not. >Also, my current project wanted me to find a way to do it.I''m sorry, but I really really have no idea what you are trying to achieve. For machines under my control (ie those I set up or administer) then I know if they are real or virtual - it''s rather obviously a different process to setup a machine on bare metal compared with setting one up as a virtual machine. For machines I''m not responsible for, then it''s not my business and I probably have no need to know ! So, just what is it that you want to know about ? What is "my machine" ? Why do you need to know ? To give some examples ... a) You are renting "web hosting" somewhere. You are only renting the web hosting, as long as it works to an acceptable level of performance then you have no need to know. There should be nothing related to it being real/virtualised which in any way affects your ability to host your site. b) You use a shared computer in the office. Again, as long as it provides the facilities/runs the applications your employer needs your to use then it makes no difference to you whether it''s a real or virtual host. c) You have your own computer and are trying to do something with it. An example where it makes a difference might be running a MythTV backed with TV tuners (which can be an issue when virtualised). However, if you cannot tell the difference just by watching the boot messages then you have much bigger issues than just knowing which type of machine you are using. -- Simon Hobson Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
jinho hwang
2012-May-16 13:58 UTC
Re: Best way to differentiate between virtual servers and non-virtual servers
Hi Simon, Thanks for your reply. Yes, if I have a control of computers, then I might be able to figure out what is virtualized or not. Maybe, it might not necessary to know about it if I am a user of machines. However, think that if I want to control all the machines, either cloud or non-cloud setting, users are using. Sometimes, the machine should have a problem or need upgrades, and I may have to reboot the computer to resolve the problem or upgrades. But if the computer is a cloud hosting machine which has lots of virtual machines running on the top of that. If I reboot that machine, it might cause a big trouble because it will reboot all the virtual machines running on it. Instead, I may have to live migrate all the virtual machines to another physical machine, then I can reboot the system. As the perspective of the infrastructure manager, not a user, knowing a machine is a virtual machine or a physical machine helps how to manage the machine. I hope you understand what I am trying to do. Jinho On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Simon Hobson <linux@thehobsons.co.uk>wrote:> jinho hwang wrote: > > I always wanted to know whether my machine is virtualized or not. Also, >> my current project wanted me to find a way to do it. >> > > I''m sorry, but I really really have no idea what you are trying to achieve. > > For machines under my control (ie those I set up or administer) then I > know if they are real or virtual - it''s rather obviously a different > process to setup a machine on bare metal compared with setting one up as a > virtual machine. > > For machines I''m not responsible for, then it''s not my business and I > probably have no need to know ! > > > So, just what is it that you want to know about ? What is "my machine" ? > Why do you need to know ? > > > To give some examples ... > > a) You are renting "web hosting" somewhere. > You are only renting the web hosting, as long as it works to an acceptable > level of performance then you have no need to know. There should be nothing > related to it being real/virtualised which in any way affects your ability > to host your site. > > b) You use a shared computer in the office. > Again, as long as it provides the facilities/runs the applications your > employer needs your to use then it makes no difference to you whether it''s > a real or virtual host. > > c) You have your own computer and are trying to do something with it. > An example where it makes a difference might be running a MythTV backed > with TV tuners (which can be an issue when virtualised). However, if you > cannot tell the difference just by watching the boot messages then you have > much bigger issues than just knowing which type of machine you are using. > > > -- > Simon Hobson > > Visit http://www.**magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/<http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/>for books by acclaimed > author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as > Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books. > > ______________________________**_________________ > Xen-users mailing list > Xen-users@lists.xen.org > http://lists.xen.org/xen-users >-- Jinho Hwang PhD Student Department of Computer Science The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 hwang.jinho@gmail.com (email) 276.336.0971 (Cell) 202.994.4875 (fax) 070.8285.6546 (myLg070) _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xen.org http://lists.xen.org/xen-users
Tait Clarridge
2012-May-16 14:19 UTC
Re: Best way to differentiate between virtual servers and non-virtual servers
On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 13:02 -0400, jinho hwang wrote:> Hi, > > Thanks for your reply. > > First of all, virtual machines are not controllable. Users will > install our software voluntarily. > > Simple software has a network connectivity and functions that might > help to figure out whether it is a virtual machine or not.Although I think that your idea is quite confusing, you could always check out MAC addresses (unless someone is not using the standard or default ranges) that may help you differentiate between physical/virtual. In terms of your project, you might want to consider that if you have a person who is logging into a server and performing upgrades/reboots and has no idea that it could be running multiple virtual machines... that person shouldn''t be logging into that server to begin with. Tait
jinho hwang
2012-May-16 14:39 UTC
Re: Best way to differentiate between virtual servers and non-virtual servers
Hi Tait, Thanks for your reply. Let''s say my project is an automated management with client-server setting, and it can control cloud or non-cloud machines. One small software installed in a client side can receive a command from the server, and it executes the command and replies the results to the server. It might give a company a good management tool to control the large system. I am thinking there are no solid sole method for this problem. It might help to overlap a couple of conditions to check. Like you said, MAC can be one method to check, but it is hard to be sure whether the MAC address is virtual machine''s MAC or physical machine''s MAC. I need to make sure which one. Jinho On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 10:19 AM, Tait Clarridge <tait@taiter.com> wrote:> On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 13:02 -0400, jinho hwang wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Thanks for your reply. > > > > First of all, virtual machines are not controllable. Users will > > install our software voluntarily. > > > > Simple software has a network connectivity and functions that might > > help to figure out whether it is a virtual machine or not. > > Although I think that your idea is quite confusing, you could always > check out MAC addresses (unless someone is not using the standard or > default ranges) that may help you differentiate between > physical/virtual. > > In terms of your project, you might want to consider that if you have a > person who is logging into a server and performing upgrades/reboots and > has no idea that it could be running multiple virtual machines... that > person shouldn''t be logging into that server to begin with. > > Tait > > > _______________________________________________ > Xen-users mailing list > Xen-users@lists.xen.org > http://lists.xen.org/xen-users >-- Jinho Hwang PhD Student Department of Computer Science The George Washington University Washington, DC 20052 hwang.jinho@gmail.com (email) 276.336.0971 (Cell) 202.994.4875 (fax) 070.8285.6546 (myLg070) _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xen.org http://lists.xen.org/xen-users
Simon Hobson
2012-May-16 14:43 UTC
Re: Best way to differentiate between virtual servers and non-virtual servers
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? jinho hwang wrote:>As the perspective of the infrastructure manager, not a user, >knowing a machine is a virtual machine or a physical machine helps >how to manage the machine.Right, so after all that, you are talking about how you - as the administrator of a machine - determine if it''s bare metal (non virtualised) system, or a virtualised system, or is a host for virtualised machines. I don''t know about other virtualisation technologies, but with Xen you just need to look at what''s installed. If the hypervisor is installed, and there''s a /proc/xen directory with stuff in it, and Xen commands (eg "xm list") do stuff - then you''ll know that this is a host system running under Xen. If there''s no Xen stuff installed, and no /proc/xen directory - then you''re likely running on bare metal. However, you really should not be having to do this. You should **KNOW** without having to go looking around on a machine what it is. If you are working on machines, and your management systems (even just a basic list of what you have or are responsible for) does not give you this information then you need to address that. Traditionally people would keep "some sort of list" which would say "what is it", "where is it", and "what''s the admin/root password". These days that should also include "is it a virtual host or client" - and have an easy way to find out "what virtual machines does this host" or "where is this hosted" depending on whether it''s a host or guest. -- Simon Hobson Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
jinho hwang
2012-May-16 15:10 UTC
Re: Best way to differentiate between virtual servers and non-virtual servers
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Simon Hobson <linux@thehobsons.co.uk>wrote:> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > jinho hwang wrote: > > As the perspective of the infrastructure manager, not a user, knowing a >> machine is a virtual machine or a physical machine helps how to manage the >> machine. >> > > Right, so after all that, you are talking about how you - as the > administrator of a machine - determine if it''s bare metal (non virtualised) > system, or a virtualised system, or is a host for virtualised machines. > > I don''t know about other virtualisation technologies, but with Xen you > just need to look at what''s installed. > > If the hypervisor is installed, and there''s a /proc/xen directory with > stuff in it, and Xen commands (eg "xm list") do stuff - then you''ll know > that this is a host system running under Xen. > > If there''s no Xen stuff installed, and no /proc/xen directory - then > you''re likely running on bare metal. > > > However, you really should not be having to do this. You should **KNOW** > without having to go looking around on a machine what it is. If you are > working on machines, and your management systems (even just a basic list of > what you have or are responsible for) does not give you this information > then you need to address that. > > Traditionally people would keep "some sort of list" which would say "what > is it", "where is it", and "what''s the admin/root password". These days > that should also include "is it a virtual host or client" - and have an > easy way to find out "what virtual machines does this host" or "where is > this hosted" depending on whether it''s a host or guest. > > > -- > Simon Hobson > > Visit http://www.**magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/<http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/>for books by acclaimed > author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as > Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books. > > ______________________________**_________________ > Xen-users mailing list > Xen-users@lists.xen.org > http://lists.xen.org/xen-users >Sorry for the top-posting. simon hobson wrote: If the hypervisor is installed, and there''s a /proc/xen directory with stuff in it, and Xen commands (eg "xm list") do stuff - then you''ll know that this is a host system running under Xen. If there''s no Xen stuff installed, and no /proc/xen directory - then you''re likely running on bare metal. I agree with Xen that I can have information from /proc/xen for both virtual machine and domain0. simon hobson wrote: However, you really should not be having to do this. You should **KNOW** without having to go looking around on a machine what it is. If you are working on machines, and your management systems (even just a basic list of what you have or are responsible for) does not give you this information then you need to address that. Traditionally people would keep "some sort of list" which would say "what is it", "where is it", and "what''s the admin/root password". These days that should also include "is it a virtual host or client" - and have an easy way to find out "what virtual machines does this host" or "where is this hosted" depending on whether it''s a host or guest. However, think about this case. I want to distribute a client software to my customers and they can install wherever they want to control from the management server. While customers install the client, they may insert a wrong information. Later, it will bring a big trouble when the manager thinks he reboots a virtual machine, but actually he reboots a physical machine which has lots of virtual machines on it. I can not trust customers'' setting. I need to make sure that the machine is a virtual machine or not. Thanks for your consideration. Jinho _______________________________________________ Xen-users mailing list Xen-users@lists.xen.org http://lists.xen.org/xen-users