Xen users - Jul 2011 - Multi headed, Multi user partially virtualized environment - feasible?

Hello all,

I''ve got an idea and am unsure of how difficult/possible it would be.
Its at least pretty ambitious.
From the info i found, the pure linux part seems to be a bit complicated but
seems doable, but as i have zero knowledge of xen yet, i don''t know if
the virtualized windows part will work.
So, any thoughts or experiences on the matter would be greatly appreciated.

Idea:
Multimedia/IT-Infrastructure using (mostly) a single strong server and many
"zero-clients".
1 Server:
Core i7 quad, 8+ GB RAM, 4+ TB HDD, etc
Two 3D graphics cards with 2 DVI/HDMI ports each
A PCIe 1x  graphics card with another 2 ports

10-20 "zero clients" replacing all TVs and PCs in the house:

-Cheap TFTs with HDMI port (all within the 15m maximum HDMI cable length)

-a few HDMI matrix switches so the servers 6 graphic ports can be switched to
the different displays
-USB hub connected via a tree of hubs to the server
-USB mouse, keyboard, soundcard connected to the hub


1-4 "virtual clients"
VNC sessions over the network


While idle, the displays should display the time, pictures, news, etc.
When activated, the user gets a list of (virtualized) OSes, along with
"internetbrowser only" or "tv only".
When an OS is chosen, the user can work at that client as if the OS would have
been booted on a normal PC.

Up to 6 users could work on the zero clients at the same time (max 1 per VM
& client).

The direct HDMI connection, without using VNC oder network at all, would allow
to run 3D games in a virtual windows7 at full frame rates.
All USB hardware connected to a clients hub would be directly accessible to the
OS in the VM, like on a local PC.
If only a single VM is running, nearly all the RAM and CPU would be available
for its use.


What do you think?
Is it possible to build such a thing, if yes how difficult/much work would it
be?

Is Xen the best way to go in such a szenario?

thanks a lot for your ideas,
   Andreas


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Andreas,
I don''t really have any input for the technical aspect of this, I just
wanted to say that this sounds like a TON of fun to do.  I don''t see
why it wouldn''t work.  I have messed with the NComputing stuff a bit
and this sounds simular, but open!  Good luck and keep us up on how it
goes, I am for sure interested to hear about the end results.

Scott

On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Andreas <register090711c@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Hello all,
> I''ve got an idea and am unsure of how difficult/possible it would
be. Its at
> least pretty ambitious.
> From the info i found, the pure linux part seems to be a bit complicated
but
> seems doable, but as i have zero knowledge of xen yet, i don''t
know if the
> virtualized windows part will work.
> So, any thoughts or experiences on the matter would be greatly appreciated.
> Idea:
> Multimedia/IT-Infrastructure using (mostly) a single strong server and many
> "zero-clients".
> 1 Server:
> Core i7 quad, 8+ GB RAM, 4+ TB HDD, etc
> Two 3D graphics cards with 2 DVI/HDMI ports each
> A PCIe 1x  graphics card with another 2 ports
> 10-20 "zero clients" replacing all TVs and PCs in the house:
> -Cheap TFTs with HDMI port (all within the 15m maximum HDMI cable length)
> -a few HDMI matrix switches so the servers 6 graphic ports can be switched
> to the different displays
> -USB hub connected via a tree of hubs to the server
> -USB mouse, keyboard, soundcard connected to the hub
>
> 1-4 "virtual clients"
> VNC sessions over the network
>
> While idle, the displays should display the time, pictures, news, etc.
> When activated, the user gets a list of (virtualized) OSes, along with
> "internetbrowser only" or "tv only".
> When an OS is chosen, the user can work at that client as if the OS would
> have been booted on a normal PC.
> Up to 6 users could work on the zero clients at the same time (max 1 per VM
> & client).
> The direct HDMI connection, without using VNC oder network at all, would
> allow to run 3D games in a virtual windows7 at full frame rates.
> All USB hardware connected to a clients hub would be directly accessible to
> the OS in the VM, like on a local PC.
> If only a single VM is running, nearly all the RAM and CPU would be
> available for its use.
>
> What do you think?
> Is it possible to build such a thing, if yes how difficult/much work would
> it be?
> Is Xen the best way to go in such a szenario?
> thanks a lot for your ideas,
>    Andreas
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
>
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On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Andreas <register090711c@yahoo.com> wrote:
>  Hello all,
>
> I''ve got an idea and am unsure of how difficult/possible it would
be. Its
> at least pretty ambitious.
> From the info i found, the pure linux part seems to be a bit complicated
> but seems doable, but as i have zero knowledge of xen yet, i don''t
know if
> the virtualized windows part will work.
> So, any thoughts or experiences on the matter would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Idea:
> Multimedia/IT-Infrastructure using (mostly) a single strong server and many
> "zero-clients".
> 1 Server:
> Core i7 quad, 8+ GB RAM, 4+ TB HDD, etc
> Two 3D graphics cards with 2 DVI/HDMI ports each
> A PCIe 1x  graphics card with another 2 ports
>
> 10-20 "zero clients" replacing all TVs and PCs in the house:
> -Cheap TFTs with HDMI port (all within the 15m maximum HDMI cable length)
> -a few HDMI matrix switches so the servers 6 graphic ports can be switched
> to the different displays
> -USB hub connected via a tree of hubs to the server
> -USB mouse, keyboard, soundcard connected to the hub
>
> 1-4 "virtual clients"
> VNC sessions over the network
>
> While idle, the displays should display the time, pictures, news, etc.
> When activated, the user gets a list of (virtualized) OSes, along with
> "internetbrowser only" or "tv only".
> When an OS is chosen, the user can work at that client as if the OS would
> have been booted on a normal PC.
>
> Up to 6 users could work on the zero clients at the same time (max 1 per VM
> & client).
> The direct HDMI connection, without using VNC oder network at all, would
> allow to run 3D games in a virtual windows7 at full frame rates.
> All USB hardware connected to a clients hub would be directly accessible to
> the OS in the VM, like on a local PC.
> If only a single VM is running, nearly all the RAM and CPU would be
> available for its use.
>
> What do you think?
> Is it possible to build such a thing, if yes how difficult/much work would
> it be?
> Is Xen the best way to go in such a szenario?
>
> thanks a lot for your ideas,
>    Andreas
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
AFAIK a normal PC can only accept input from one keyboard and one mouse at a
time. So your biggest challenge would be to figure out how to bind a mouse
and keyboard to one specific VM, then another keyboard & mouse to another
VM.

One would normally use a dumb terminal for each user who needs to connect in
this case, so I''m not sure if what you want todo would be possible with
today''s hardware.



-- 
Kind Regards
Rudi Ahlers
SoftDux

Website: http://www.SoftDux.com
Technical Blog: http://Blog.SoftDux.com
Office: 087 805 9573
Cell: 082 554 7532


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Rudi Ahlers wrote:
>AFAIK a normal PC can only accept input from one keyboard and one 
>mouse at a time. So your biggest challenge would be to figure out 
>how to bind a mouse and keyboard to one specific VM, then another 
>keyboard & mouse to another VM.
>
>One would normally use a dumb terminal for each user who needs to 
>connect in this case, so I''m not sure if what you want todo would
be
>possible with today''s hardware.
There''s no such hardware restriction, and never really has been 
AFAIK. Even back when PS2 (and older) keyboards were in use, there 
wasn''t (to my knowledge) any fundamental restriction that would have 
prevented multiple interfaces being supported. Now it''s all USB
it''s
moot anyway - you can add something like 60 keyboards and mice (limit 
is 127 devices total IIRC).

The real problem is, as you say, in software/OS support to route 
devices to VMs.

-- 
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.

_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Simon Hobson
<linux@thehobsons.co.uk>wrote:
> Rudi Ahlers wrote:
>
>  AFAIK a normal PC can only accept input from one keyboard and one mouse at
>> a time. So your biggest challenge would be to figure out how to bind a
mouse
>> and keyboard to one specific VM, then another keyboard & mouse to
another
>> VM.
>>
>> One would normally use a dumb terminal for each user who needs to
connect
>> in this case, so I''m not sure if what you want todo would be
possible with
>> today''s hardware.
>>
>
> There''s no such hardware restriction, and never really has been
AFAIK. Even
> back when PS2 (and older) keyboards were in use, there wasn''t (to
my
> knowledge) any fundamental restriction that would have prevented multiple
> interfaces being supported. Now it''s all USB it''s moot
anyway - you can add
> something like 60 keyboards and mice (limit is 127 devices total IIRC).
>
With "hardware limits" I wasn''t referring to how many USB
ports your PC had,
but rather how many input devices it can recognize :)
Connect 5 USB keyboard to a PC, then go into the BIOS and see which one
works? They all do the same thing, you can''t isolate which one can
access
the BIOS and which one can''t.
And the same goes for graphics cards. Even if you have 3 installed and 6
monitors connected to it, either only one (generally the on-board of first
PCI-E) card will display something, or they''ll all display exactly the
same
thing.

If there was a way to boot into the BIOS with one keyboard and monitor, yet
display & manipulate the boot prompt from another keyboard and monitor, then
it would be rather easy to tell the OS which device it should use.

>
> The real problem is, as you say, in software/OS support to route devices to
> VMs.
>

Referring to my above comments, this is "maybe" where something like
VirtualBox could help. There''s an option in VirtualBox to allocate
specific
USB device (generally storage) to a VM - so I don''t know if you could
limit
a certain keyboard, mouse & graphics card (or rather VGA port) to a
specified VM that way around?


>
> --
> Simon Hobson
>
> Visit
http://www.**magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/<http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/>for
books by acclaimed
> author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
> Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
>
http://lists.xensource.com/**xen-users<http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users>
>


-- 
Kind Regards
Rudi Ahlers
SoftDux

Website: http://www.SoftDux.com
Technical Blog: http://Blog.SoftDux.com
Office: 087 805 9573
Cell: 082 554 7532


_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

>> AFAIK a normal PC can only accept input from one keyboard and one mouse
at a time. So your biggest challenge would be to figure out
>> how to bind a mouse and keyboard to one specific VM, then another
keyboard & mouse to another VM.
>> One would normally use a dumb terminal for each user who needs to
connect in this case, so I''m not sure if what you want todo would be
>> possible with today''s hardware.
>There''s no such hardware restriction, and never really has been
AFAIK. Even back when PS2 (and older) keyboards were in use, there
wasn''t
>(to my knowledge) any fundamental restriction that would have prevented
multiple interfaces being supported. Now it''s all USB it''s
moot
>anyway >- you can add something like 60 keyboards and mice (limit is 127
devices total IIRC).
>The real problem is, as you say, in software/OS support to route devices to
VMs.
Its possible to setup a linux box to use serveral independent screens and
keybords/mice so serveral people can work on it (google for "linux multi
seat"). Thats what i assumed as a base for my project. I don''t
know if you can assign whole USB hubs this way, though.
So, if i just configure the "zero clients" as simple linux desktops,
it should work for the most part, although i don''t know if assigning a
DVI port to a session can be done "on the fly".
-> Linux can handle and map multiple inputs


Problem is the xen part - running an emulated unaccelerated windows in
virtualbox via x should work with this setup, but with slow graphics.
So i want to run that in xen, but don''t know how what possibilities for
hardware mapping xen offers.

I assume Dom0 would manage the screens?
Can i assign a "half graphic card" (1 DVI port) to a DomU or would i
need a seperate card per session/VM?

thanks,
  Andreas

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Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Andreas <register090711c@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
>
>
> >> AFAIK a normal PC can only accept input from one keyboard and one
mouse
> at a time. So your biggest challenge would be to figure out
>
> >> how to bind a mouse and keyboard to one specific VM, then another
> keyboard & mouse to another VM.
> >> One would normally use a dumb terminal for each user who needs to
> connect in this case, so I''m not sure if what you want todo would
be
>
> >> possible with today''s hardware.
>
> >There''s no such hardware restriction, and never really has
been AFAIK.
> Even back when PS2 (and older) keyboards were in use, there wasn''t
>
> >(to my knowledge) any fundamental restriction that would have prevented
> multiple interfaces being supported. Now it''s all USB
it''s moot
>
> >anyway >- you can add something like 60 keyboards and mice (limit is
127
> devices total IIRC).
> >The real problem is, as you say, in software/OS support to route
devices
> to VMs.
>
> Its possible to setup a linux box to use serveral independent screens and
> keybords/mice so serveral people can work on it (google for "linux
multi
> seat"). Thats what i assumed as a base for my project. I
don''t know if you
> can assign whole USB hubs this way, though.
>
Wow, I honestly didn''t know this could actually be done,and sorry for
my
ignorance in this regard. I actually wanted todo something like this a few
(4/5) years ago for our home PC usage to save some cash but couldn''t
get it
to work due the "limitations" which I encountered and explained above.
So I
ended up buying myself and my wife a new laptop instead since the PC I had
at home, at that time was due for an upgrade in anycase.




> So, if i just configure the "zero clients" as simple linux
desktops, it
> should work for the most part, although i don''t know if assigning
a DVI port
> to a session can be done "on the fly".
> -> Linux can handle and map multiple inputs
>
>
I would presume VGA pass-through would allow this, but I''ve honestly
never
had to use it.


A quick google search revealed some interesting results:
http://www.google.co.za/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8&ion=1&nord=1#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&nord=1&site=webhp&source=hp&q=XEN+DVI+passthrough&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=660bc6cfdcef6132&ion=1&biw=1440&bih=815


Here''s the basic usage:
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenVGAPassthrough
Check this out as well:
http://blog.xen.org/index.php/2009/10/24/new-xen-virtualization-vga-passthrough-movies-of-3d-gaming-benchmark-results/
http://blog.xen.org/index.php/2009/10/26/xen-virtualization-vga-passthrough-playing-3d-fps-games-in-windows-xp-hvm-virtual-machine/
http://xen.1045712.n5.nabble.com/Xen-4-1-0-VGA-Passthrough-ATI-Radeon-4550-Partial-Success-td4371636.html


BUT, I honestly don''t know if a VGA card''s 2 DVI ports can be
controlled
individually like VGA devices .


>
> Problem is the xen part - running an emulated unaccelerated windows in
> virtualbox via x should work with this setup, but with slow graphics.
> So i want to run that in xen, but don''t know how what
possibilities for
> hardware mapping xen offers.
>
> I assume Dom0 would manage the screens?
> Can i assign a "half graphic card" (1 DVI port) to a DomU or
would i need a
> seperate card per session/VM?
>
> thanks,
>   Andreas
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
>


-- 
Kind Regards
Rudi Ahlers
SoftDux

Website: http://www.SoftDux.com
Technical Blog: http://Blog.SoftDux.com
Office: 087 805 9573
Cell: 082 554 7532


_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

Rudi Ahlers wrote:
>Wow, I honestly didn''t know this could actually be done,and sorry 
>for my ignorance in this regard.
That''s understandable - the "PC uniformity" has a lot to
answer for,
and the BIOS limitations even more.

I suspect what would be needed would be a layer of middleware to act 
as an IO broker/router to match up the right input and output devices 
with the right process. I suspect that in the Linux multi-head 
projects, it''s just been done via multiple instances of X, with each 
X session mapped to a specific output display and set of inputs.


As an aside, I recall when the company I worked for started investing 
heavily in CAD in the late 80''s. When I say investing heavily, I mean 
eye watering amounts of cash - we weren''t talking desktop 
workstations here !

Well actually we were talking desktops - the whole desk WAS the 
workstation ! In a small box in one end was the graphics processor, a 
big display up front, and the top of the ''desk'' was a huge
digitiser
tablet. But, and the reason it''s topical for the thread, all this was 
was a graphics terminal - it shared a CPU (VAX IIRC) with several 
other desks. In effect it was a high performance vector graphics 
version of the old "green screen" terminal setup on mainframes and 
minis.
As I recall there were endless complaints about poor performance, I 
did hear a story that we ran about 10 heads to one processor - while 
the manufacturer recommend a max of 4 :-/

-- 
Simon Hobson

Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.

_______________________________________________
Xen-users mailing list
Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users

Those desktops sound like a large version of the SGI stuff of the 90''s!

On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Simon Hobson <linux@thehobsons.co.uk>
wrote:
> Rudi Ahlers wrote:
>
>> Wow, I honestly didn''t know this could actually be done,and
sorry for my
>> ignorance in this regard.
>
> That''s understandable - the "PC uniformity" has a lot to
answer for, and the
> BIOS limitations even more.
>
> I suspect what would be needed would be a layer of middleware to act as an
> IO broker/router to match up the right input and output devices with the
> right process. I suspect that in the Linux multi-head projects,
it''s just
> been done via multiple instances of X, with each X session mapped to a
> specific output display and set of inputs.
>
>
> As an aside, I recall when the company I worked for started investing
> heavily in CAD in the late 80''s. When I say investing heavily, I
mean eye
> watering amounts of cash - we weren''t talking desktop workstations
here !
>
> Well actually we were talking desktops - the whole desk WAS the workstation
> ! In a small box in one end was the graphics processor, a big display up
> front, and the top of the ''desk'' was a huge digitiser
tablet. But, and the
> reason it''s topical for the thread, all this was was a graphics
terminal -
> it shared a CPU (VAX IIRC) with several other desks. In effect it was a
high
> performance vector graphics version of the old "green screen"
terminal setup
> on mainframes and minis.
> As I recall there were endless complaints about poor performance, I did
hear
> a story that we ran about 10 heads to one processor - while the
manufacturer
> recommend a max of 4 :-/
>
> --
> Simon Hobson
>
> Visit http://www.magpiesnestpublishing.co.uk/ for books by acclaimed
> author Gladys Hobson. Novels - poetry - short stories - ideal as
> Christmas stocking fillers. Some available as e-books.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-users mailing list
> Xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> http://lists.xensource.com/xen-users
>


-- 

Never wrestle with a pig. You''ll only get dirty and the pig likes it.

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