Xen users - Feb 2007 - XEN future....? RESEARCH :- Do participate.....

Hi all
I was just wondering about the future of XEN....
At present i believe there are many pros and cons of using XEN but i think
cons side is bit heavier. 
pros:-
1.) Good performance
2.) Free of cost
Cons:-
1.) Doesnt support all hardware like USB and all...
2.) Linux drivers are generally 3-4 months behind windows, so any new
feature can not be implemented immidiately...
3.) Not stable enough, lot of complexities...

Well may be i am wrong in few points, if i am then do correct me. 
And also i would like you all to mention your views and do add some more
pros and cons and lets decide whether its a future or not. 

Thanks for participating.... 
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com 
> [mailto:xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of anant
> Sent: 07 February 2007 15:21
> To: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> Subject: [Xen-users] XEN future....? RESEARCH :- Do participate.....
> 
> 
> Hi all
> I was just wondering about the future of XEN....
> At present i believe there are many pros and cons of using 
> XEN but i think
> cons side is bit heavier. 
> pros:-
> 1.) Good performance
> 2.) Free of cost
> Cons:-
> 1.) Doesnt support all hardware like USB and all...
Where do you mean that USB isn''t supported? USB in the guest
isn''t
really meaningfull unless you also describe WHAT you want to do with USB
in the guest - for example USB-sticks can be exported to the guest from
Dom0 using "xm block-attach", whilst attaching a new keyboard is
pretty
meaningless to the guest, as the keyboard is going via Dom0 anyways. 
> 2.) Linux drivers are generally 3-4 months behind windows, so any new
> feature can not be implemented immidiately...
Depends on what the driver is for, and what information is available.
Unfortunately, a lot of companies providing new gadgets may not provide
good information (programmers manuals, etc) about these gadgets and do
not produce their own drivers for Linux. A lot this goes back to the
fact that some suppliers that are not supporting Linux in the right way.
If the suppliers of hardware WANTS a driver for Linux, then there''s no
reason why it shouldn''t be there at the same time as the Windows or
other OS''s driver - and in fact, I think it''s fair to say that
Linux has
drivers available for more hardware than any other OS - although maybe
some of the latest, greatest hardware isn''t always supported
immediately
due to lack of interest from the hardware vendor. 
> 3.) Not stable enough, lot of complexities...
The stable releases seem reasonably stable, but of course, it does
depend on which features you use, and what you''re trying to do. 

It''s certainly complex, that''s for sure, because
virtualization is a
complex matter... 

--
Mats
> 
> Well may be i am wrong in few points, if i am then do correct me. 
> And also i would like you all to mention your views and do 
> add some more
> pros and cons and lets decide whether its a future or not. 
Well, I think "the market" will decide the future of Xen, not you or
I.

--
Mats
> 
> Thanks for participating.... 
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> 
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<Well, I think "the market" will decide the future of Xen, not you
or I.

May be its me who ll decide to add XEN as a feature inbuild product in my
coming systems release ...lol..you never know....There must be someone who
takes decissions and the decissions which are agreed by user and the user
who is using the product. And we are the user, and we have to decide whether
its imprtant for IT or not. And if yes then how...?
Well may be you know a lot about Xen virtualization, but you might get to
know something more out of here and which could be gr8 enough....
So its just a simple research about the future of XEN. what are its present
pros and cons and which are about to be resolved in near future. 
Its not me and you who goes through this great forum, there are loads....So
it could be a bit interesting decission...
And yeah i mentioned about the usb drive, so you said it could be achieved.
But is that a user friendly approach...

Thanks for starting the thread....
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>-----Original Message-----
>From: xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com [mailto:xen-users-
>bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of anant
>Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 7:53 AM
>To: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
>Subject: [Xen-users] RE: XEN future....? RESEARCH :- Do
participate.....
>
>
><Well, I think "the market" will decide the future of Xen, not
you or
I.
>
>May be its me who ll decide to add XEN as a feature inbuild product in
>my
>coming systems release ...lol..you never know....There must be someone
>who
>takes decissions and the decissions which are agreed by user and the
>user
>who is using the product. And we are the user, and we have to decide
>whether
>its imprtant for IT or not. And if yes then how...?
>Well may be you know a lot about Xen virtualization, but you might get
>to
>know something more out of here and which could be gr8 enough....
>So its just a simple research about the future of XEN. what are its
>present
>pros and cons and which are about to be resolved in near future.
>Its not me and you who goes through this great forum, there are
>loads....So
>it could be a bit interesting decission...
>And yeah i mentioned about the usb drive, so you said it could be
>achieved.
>But is that a user friendly approach...
>
>Thanks for starting the thread....
>--
Though I run into several problems with cross-distro Xen, we have
several Xen servers running in production doing a variety of tasks.  We
were able to takes machines that had 5% load and start utilizing them
better.  Instead of buying more hardware we were able to double the use
of existing hardware with a near zero cost factor.

I think that as Xen matures and the distro''s start getting their acts
together that the market will start picking up even more for Xen.  I
highly doubt that it will go away anytime soon.  This especially holds
true as the commercial OS vendors implement VT hooks into their apps.

The only possible thing that I can see taking Xen on is VMWare and their
product is now free, but the trade off is the overhead cost of VMWare.
I''ve been running VMWare for some years and I''ll say that
their product
is much less of a hassel BUT it comes at a performance cost (for the
full virtualization).  Which leads you back to para-virtualized under
xen for better performance.  This of course, is my observation on last
years technologies.  I''ve been playing more and more with newer
hardware
(VT enabled stuff) and have yet to compare the two.





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On 2/7/07, Petersson, Mats <Mats.Petersson@amd.com>
wrote:
> > 1.) Good performance
> > 2.) Free of cost
Free of license cost doesn''t mean free of admistration costs!
Don''t forget that.
> > Cons:-
> > 1.) Doesnt support all hardware like USB and all...
>
> Where do you mean that USB isn''t supported? USB in the guest
isn''t
> really meaningfull unless you also describe WHAT you want to do with USB
> in the guest - for example USB-sticks can be exported to the guest from
> Dom0 using "xm block-attach", whilst attaching a new keyboard is
pretty
> meaningless to the guest, as the keyboard is going via Dom0 anyways.
All these things really depend heavily on what usage scenarios one looks at.

On the desktop, I want just about any usb device to be easily usable
in my windows hvm domain.
(admittedly, "I" is hardly right, but "the users I installed
linux
with a hvm domain to resort to when things don''t work on linux, e.g.
because of missing drivers or apps").

The xen manual says, exporting usb devices is possible, but yet no one
anwered my questions if this information is really up to date. (and I
had no time to waste on another unimplemented/beta feature)
>
> > 2.) Linux drivers are generally 3-4 months behind windows, so any new
> > feature can not be implemented immidiately...
This is a generic linux problem which I''m not going to dicsuss here.
> > 3.) Not stable enough, lot of complexities...
>
> The stable releases seem reasonably stable, but of course, it does
> depend on which features you use, and what you''re trying to do.
Right.
> It''s certainly complex, that''s for sure, because
virtualization is a
> complex matter...
That a software is complex on the inside, doesn''t necessarily mean it
must be complex and hard to get going on the user/admin side. Again,
when looking at the desktop, the latter is a heavy con. For admins,
some things might be more bearable than for plain users, because
things get cheaper the more machines you have to administrate (in case
some of the complex admin tasks scale well, and are not proportional
to the number of machines).

Look at qemu, vmware-workstation or player - even with kvm which is
very new, you can get to a hvm domU in minutes.

With Xen you have a lot of things to go through and a lot of
configuration to understand.
Some GUI tools of mainstream distributions make that a bit better, but
some of them only try, and actually make it worse because they just
don''t work, are slow, crash too often.
As of now, at least. Sure and hopefully, this will change...

I''ll stil stick with Xen, but it''s interesting to look at
these things
from a criticall perspective... that show rooms to improve.
Henning

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Yeah i totally agree with all of you..
>The only possible thing that I can see taking Xen on is VMWare and their 
product is now free.
Is vmware really free now, i didnt knew that. Yeah Vmware player is free but
i dont think workstation. But is there a lot any much difference between
them as both can have virtual machines on top.

Well one more point was coming into my mind.....
well is it possible to start the virtual machine in XEN directly with
reboot. I mean without going to Linux Host OS.
well many users who use windows wont go and pick up linux but if its
possible to directly start the windows virtual machine with reboot then user
doesnt have to deal with linux host and could get what he/she wants with
better performance, security and things like that...But i doubt if its
possible or not..?

>This is a generic linux problem which I''m not going to dicsuss
here.
Yeah this is linux problem but as xen depends upon all the linux drivers so
here xen gets effected ...if you have new drivers for windows but you are
running it as a virtual machine over XEN then you might not be able to get
the drivers installed as it depends on linux drivers which are well
late...well this is what i think..
Correct me if m wrong.

At the moment even i cant think of many good pts that why would any normal
person would use XEN. Well it is not so user friendly like vmware n all are,
Yeh if it become lil user friendly then i am sure that XEN WOULD RULE
VIRTUALIZATION for sure......

But again its a matter of atleast 2 yrs i guess..



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> -----Original Message-----
> From: xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com 
> [mailto:xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of anant
> Sent: 08 February 2007 09:11
> To: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> Subject: Re: [Xen-users] XEN future....? RESEARCH :- Do 
> participate.....
> 
> 
> Yeah i totally agree with all of you..
> 
> >The only possible thing that I can see taking Xen on is 
> VMWare and their 
> product is now free.
> Is vmware really free now, i didnt knew that. Yeah Vmware 
> player is free but
> i dont think workstation. But is there a lot any much 
> difference between
> them as both can have virtual machines on top.
> 
> Well one more point was coming into my mind.....
> well is it possible to start the virtual machine in XEN directly with
> reboot. I mean without going to Linux Host OS.
> well many users who use windows wont go and pick up linux but if its
> possible to directly start the windows virtual machine with 
> reboot then user
> doesnt have to deal with linux host and could get what he/she 
> wants with
> better performance, security and things like that...But i doubt if its
> possible or not..?
Are you asking "is it possible to run Xen without Linux?" or "is
it
possible to automatically start a VM on top of Xen+Linux when it
starts?"

The answer to the first question is "No"[1]. The answer to the second
form of the question is definitely "Yes", you can add a startup script
to your Linux distribution and make the VM start automagically when you
boot Linux. 

[1] Xen requires SOME host-OS. It can be other things than Linux - there
have been ports of Xen running with other OS''s, but it''s
almost
necessary that it''s a "unix-like" OS, such as Solaris or some
BSD-version. 
> 
> 
> >This is a generic linux problem which I''m not going to dicsuss
here.
> 
> Yeah this is linux problem but as xen depends upon all the 
> linux drivers so
> here xen gets effected ...if you have new drivers for windows 
> but you are
> running it as a virtual machine over XEN then you might not 
> be able to get
> the drivers installed as it depends on linux drivers which are well
> late...well this is what i think..
> Correct me if m wrong.
Exactly what type of drivers are you talking about? What is the problem
you''re trying to solve (or are you writing a paper on the subject of
"What is the difference between running Windows on bare-metal and on top
of Xen?". Do you have a case-in-point of a driver that you require for
your system to work, that exists under Windows but doesn''t under Xen?
Is
this still about your hardware info?
> 
> At the moment even i cant think of many good pts that why 
> would any normal
> person would use XEN. Well it is not so user friendly like 
> vmware n all are,
> Yeh if it become lil user friendly then i am sure that XEN WOULD RULE
> VIRTUALIZATION for sure......
But why would ANY NORMAL person use virtualization at all? Most people
don''t use computers in a way where virtualization makes any sense in
the
first place - so why would they want virtualization (whether it''s easy
to use or not)? The average person uses a computer for:
1. Playing games.
2. Web-browsing and e-mail.
3. Writing documents, spreadsheets, presentations, etc. 

Where does any of this get any "better" by running virtualization?
What
problem are you trying to solve?

I''m not saying your statement is wrong, but it''s like saying
that a
Formula 1 car is difficult to drive, so why would a normal person want
one? Well they don''t... 

That''s of course not to say that efforts to make Xen more userfriendly
would go amiss - but it''s not a "every-mans product".
Virtualization is,
as of right now at least, a specialized niche, where people who need it
will do what''s necessary to get there. 

Also, I believe the user-interface on for example XenExpress is a lot
nicer than that of the open source version of Xen. It''s still free to
download. Have you tried it?

--
Mats
> 
> But again its a matter of atleast 2 yrs i guess..
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/XEN-future....--RESEARCH-%3A--Do-partici
> pate.....-tf3187620.html#a8861756
> Sent from the Xen - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 


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>The answer to the second 
>form of the question is definitely "Yes", you can add a startup
script
>to your Linux distribution and make the VM start automagically when you 
>boot Linux.
Yeah i meant by this only . To directly start VMachine with a reboot of Host
OS. i dont want to go to VMM to start up the vmachine. Well so how can i
achieve this. I mean what about this startup script. Is there any manual or
anything which could be helpful in achieving this. I dont have any idea at
the moment about how can i add startup script to the disto. 

And about drivers thingy, i am just talking in general like if there is a
new version of graphic card for instance so windows come up with a drivers
for that but windows which is running over virtual machine wont be able to
get that as it would take few months to hv drivers for linux. Well usually
linux drivers comes after 3-4 months of windows one. So thats a drawback i
was telling about...nothing much really. 
>But why would ANY NORMAL person use virtualization at all? 
Well there are many normal users who prefer having running two OS, so they
go for partitioning disk and all but virtualization could help out without
partioning the sys. Well There are many users who use computers in business
and are not a computer freak and just want 2 or more OS for watever reason .
So they just want a simple approach to start OS. 
So i just meant that at the moment its not that user friendly that anyone
could start that up and perform basic task.
Well the problem that i am trying to get on with simple that i am looking
over the prospects if our clients use XEN to have windows OS without knowing
anything about linux host. Which i think would not work for atleast 1 to 2
yrs.

At the moment i think xen is good among the comp freaks with in big
companies to solve their general problems . Can not be promoted on a large
scale till it becomes user friendly...

Well and yeh what about xen express. I have not tried that yet. Which distro
does it included inn.. I would definately give it a try. 

chao
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com 
> [mailto:xen-users-bounces@lists.xensource.com] On Behalf Of anant
> Sent: 08 February 2007 11:04
> To: xen-users@lists.xensource.com
> Subject: [Xen-users] RE: XEN future....? RESEARCH :- Do 
> participate.....
> 
> 
> >The answer to the second 
> >form of the question is definitely "Yes", you can add a 
> startup script 
> >to your Linux distribution and make the VM start 
> automagically when you 
> >boot Linux.
> 
> Yeah i meant by this only . To directly start VMachine with a 
> reboot of Host
> OS. i dont want to go to VMM to start up the vmachine. Well 
> so how can i
> achieve this. I mean what about this startup script. Is there 
> any manual or
> anything which could be helpful in achieving this. I dont 
> have any idea at
> the moment about how can i add startup script to the disto. 
Ok, so lets assume you want to use the "desktop" on the Linux distro: 

Add a piece of script to the .bashrc:
if -z $VM_STARTED ; then
  export VM_STARTED=1
  xm create some-vm-config;
fi

In .bashlogout:
if -n $VM_STARTED ; then
   vm shutdown some-vm-name;
   export -n VM_STARTED;
fi

This is perhaps not perfect, but it gets something similar to what you
asked for. 

What I''m really trying to say is that there''s ways to create a
VM based
on some script that is being run at some point - depending on what you
want to do, you may find that the above is OK for you, or not.
> 
> And about drivers thingy, i am just talking in general like 
> if there is a
> new version of graphic card for instance so windows come up 
> with a drivers
> for that but windows which is running over virtual machine 
> wont be able to
> get that as it would take few months to hv drivers for linux. 
> Well usually
> linux drivers comes after 3-4 months of windows one. So thats 
> a drawback i
> was telling about...nothing much really. 
Yeah, and that''s a problem to XEN in which way? A whole lot of people
aren''t using the latest, very newest, graphics card anyways. And many
graphics cards DO work with older drivers, but perhaps at a lower
performance level. 
> 
> >But why would ANY NORMAL person use virtualization at all? 
> Well there are many normal users who prefer having running 
> two OS, so they
> go for partitioning disk and all but virtualization could 
> help out without
> partioning the sys. Well There are many users who use 
> computers in business
> and are not a computer freak and just want 2 or more OS for 
> watever reason .
Give me one example of a "normal" user that needs two OS''s on
the same
machine simultaneously (as I see it, partitioning the disk is MUCH
easier to manage, but it depends on what you want to do). 
> So they just want a simple approach to start OS. 
And logging in and typing "xm create somename" is very complicated, in
your opinion? Are we talking about auntie Mable, or someone who actually
knows a bit about using a computer? Why would my mum want to run Windows
as a VM in a Linux box? [Although I think if I wrote down "xm create
somename" on a piece of paper, I would only get a call from my mum when
she''d lost the piece of paper...]. 
> So i just meant that at the moment its not that user friendly 
> that anyone
> could start that up and perform basic task.
> Well the problem that i am trying to get on with simple that 
> i am looking
> over the prospects if our clients use XEN to have windows OS 
> without knowing
> anything about linux host. Which i think would not work for 
> atleast 1 to 2
> yrs.
> 
> At the moment i think xen is good among the comp freaks with in big
> companies to solve their general problems . Can not be 
> promoted on a large
> scale till it becomes user friendly...
Userfriendly to whom?
> 
> Well and yeh what about xen express. I have not tried that 
> yet. Which distro
> does it included inn.. I would definately give it a try. 
XenExpress is not distributed "in a distribution", it''s
distributed by
XenSource, and comes in a package to be installed on your existing
distribution of Linux. 

See: http://www.xensource.com/products/xen_express/

--
Mats
> 
> chao
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/XEN-future....--RESEARCH-%3A--Do-partici
pate.....-tf3187620.html#a8863336
> Sent from the Xen - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
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On 2/8/07, Petersson, Mats <Mats.Petersson@amd.com>
wrote:
> But why would ANY NORMAL person use virtualization at all? Most people
> don''t use computers in a way where virtualization makes any sense
in the
> first place - so why would they want virtualization (whether it''s
easy
> to use or not)? The average person uses a computer for:
> 1. Playing games.
> 2. Web-browsing and e-mail.
> 3. Writing documents, spreadsheets, presentations, etc.
>
> Where does any of this get any "better" by running
virtualization? What
> problem are you trying to solve?
- many people are fed with windows, but need it for some tasks.
running linux as main system and windows (with full usb and other
device access - because exactly missing drivers are the main fact why
they still need windows sometimes)
Having an easy to access virtualization solution would getting more
people using linux on the desktop, only resorting someimes back to
windows when it''s unavoidable.

- One could isolate the web and general internet stuff from the other
stuff for security

-  if you help "normal users" with their computers, often enough you
have things to do because they  "play their systems to death" by
installing a whole lot of crap. Still, everybody must try new
software,  because otherwise we were still stuck at DOS :)
With nicely working virtualization, I can give them one VM that
contains the important software, that must always work, and not give
them the root password, and
one "playing vm" that they can play to death as often as they want -
it''s just recovered from an image if it''s broken.
With "very nicely" working virtualization, they could do this on their
own, or I had much less trouble to set these things up.

At a time where kqemu finally gets free software, and kvm, Xen might
not be interesting anymore in these areas - but it could have been...

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On 2/8/07, Petersson, Mats <Mats.Petersson@amd.com>
wrote:
> Userfriendly to whom?
To you, to desktop users, to me, to everybody.

Nobody can dare to say every aspect of getting Xen  and VMs on it
runinng is pure fun and very simple. But what anant says, and I agree
is, it should be, for everyone.

It''s not always easy to build software that is at the same time very
simple and easily to get started(which less "educated" users need, but
an admin is also happy when getting a software installed in lesse than
3 hours, or even days), but still powerful and configurable in every
detail(which an admin needs to take full advantage of all
possibilities).
But that is actually big part of the art of making software - it''s one
point where the decision between "working" software and
"superb"
software is made.

That said, it is right that sometimes one has to focus on a target
group of users(especially because it''s hard to get it good for
multiple groups): saying Xen focuses mainly or even only on
administrators for use in datacenters, makes the whole discussion
about user-friendlyness pointless.

Henning

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On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, anant wrote:
> Yeah i meant by this only . To directly start VMachine with a reboot of
Host
> OS. i dont want to go to VMM to start up the vmachine. Well so how can i
> achieve this. I mean what about this startup script. Is there any manual or
> anything which could be helpful in achieving this. I dont have any idea at
> the moment about how can i add startup script to the disto.
the open-source xen install provides the startup scripts  /etc/init.d/xend 
and /etc/init.d/xendomains   /etc/init.d/xend starts xend, and 
/etc/init.d/xendomains starts all DomUs in /etc/xen/auto/

symlink both of these into your /etc/rc startup directory (on my rhel4 box 
it''s /etc/rc.d/rc3.d/ )  then symlink the xm config files in 
/etc/xen/xmconfigfile to /etc/xen/auto/  and your DomUs should start upon 
startup.

ln -s /etc/init.d/xend /etc/rc.d/rc3.d/S98xend
ln -s /etc/init.d/xend /etc/rc.d/rc3.d/s99xendomains

(the two steps above may be different for your distro depending on how 
your rc is setup;  this works in RHEL4)

ln -s /etc/xen/xmexample1 /etc/xen/auto/xmexample1

after you do this, xmexample1 should start when you boot up and ''xm
save''
when you shut down  (make sure you have enough /var/ disk space to save 
all ram assigned to xmexample1)

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On 2/8/07, Luke S. Crawford <lsc@prgmr.com> wrote:
> ln -s /etc/init.d/xend /etc/rc.d/rc3.d/S98xend
> ln -s /etc/init.d/xend /etc/rc.d/rc3.d/s99xendomains
Most distributions make this nicer: update-rc.d with debian based
ones, chkconfig with suse and fedora.

Henning

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