Olly Betts
2015-Sep-11 22:55 UTC
[Xapian-discuss] Administrivia: Problems caused by Yahoo addresses
A few hours ago 20 addresses got unsubscribed from this list due to bounces caused by Yahoo's DMARC p=reject policy: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/SLN24050.html This breaks mailing lists. Yahoo are well aware of this, but don't seem to care: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2141120/yahoo-email-antispoofing-policy-breaks-mailing-lists.html The nearest Yahoo seem to come to useful advice is suggesting lists should rewrite the "From:" header to be from the mailing list, which breaks the way people expect mailing lists to work. This change actually happened last year, but we've not hit issues so far as we don't have many posts from Yahoo addresses. Recently there have been quite a few, so there's been a corresponding number of bounced messages. I've resubscribed the affected addresses - I'm fairly sure all were due to this, but if anyone actually meant to unsubscribe, just remove yourself again (and sorry for the inconvenience). I've also disabled the footer that mailman was configured to add to each message, as that breaks the DKIM signature on the message - my understanding is that if that signature is good them the message shouldn't bounce, so we'll see if that helps. You can find links for unsubscribing, etc in the message headers anyway. Yahoo's DKIM signature also includes the "Subject:" header, so messages which get the subject altered due to the addition of "[Xapian-discuss]" probably also have a broken signature. I'm not a fan of such tags personally (and there are better headers to filter list email on), but I know they are fairly popular so they're less of a no-brainer to just turn off. The other option is to ban posting to the list from Yahoo addresses (and similarly for any other email providers who implement policies that cause collateral damage such as this). You could probably still subscribe from such addresses, but it would be read-only. Any thoughts? Cheers, Olly
Eric Wong
2015-Sep-12 09:23 UTC
[Xapian-discuss] Administrivia: Problems caused by Yahoo addresses
Olly Betts <olly at survex.com> wrote:> A few hours ago 20 addresses got unsubscribed from this list due to > bounces caused by Yahoo's DMARC p=reject policy: > > https://help.yahoo.com/kb/SLN24050.html > > This breaks mailing lists. Yahoo are well aware of this, but don't seem > to care:Fwiw, mailman has a 'cleanse-dkim' handler which strips DKIM-related headers entirely. Maybe that's enough to get mails through... I haven't used Mailman myself, but I took the hint from Mailman and strip those same headers in the public-inbox.org MDA code[1] before it (optionally) gets sent through mlmmj. But then again there are no active Yahoo posters on lists I run... There have not been any bounces from Yahoo lurkers, though.> The other option is to ban posting to the list from Yahoo addresses (and > similarly for any other email providers who implement policies that > cause collateral damage such as this). You could probably still > subscribe from such addresses, but it would be read-only. > > Any thoughts?Unfortunately, I suspect things like this Yahoo change are sign of things to come with big mail providers continuing to make life harder for independent admins. (Trying not hijack and promote my own project, here, but then again it is the reason I started using Xapian :) Things like this Yahoo change is one of the reasons I chose to take an "archives first" approach to mailing lists with public-inbox. Email gets dumped into a git repository whic can get mirrored and synced efficiently. Readers can subscribe via git://, Atom feed or follow along on a Xapian-backed website. I'll hopefully have an NNTP server up in a week or so. Having these options will hopefully avoid problems of push-based SMTP delivery. Unfortunately most mailing list participants are still used to getting email pushed to them. I also encourage reply-to-all with public-inbox since it makes the list server less of a single-point-of-failure and encourages drive-by posters. [1] git clone git://80x24.org/public-inbox (still terribly undocumented at the moment) </end promotion>
Rob Nagler
2015-Sep-12 14:28 UTC
[Xapian-discuss] Administrivia: Problems caused by Yahoo addresses
Hi Eric, Fwiw, mailman has a 'cleanse-dkim' handler which strips DKIM-related> headers entirely. Maybe that's enough to get mails through... >This is insufficient. You need to rewrite the From. Looks like Mailman has this feature now: http://wiki.list.org/DEV/DMARC Olly, you'll need to upgrade to 2.1.16 to be able to turn this on. Unfortunately, I suspect things like this Yahoo change are sign of> things to come with big mail providers continuing to make life harder > for independent admins. >Yahoo's change was harsh, and made everybody's list management difficult, even for Google Groups. It was relatively easy for us to rewrite the header so that's what we did. AOL has similar problems, btw. We currently rewrite emails from the following domains: google.com ebay.com paypal.com yahoo.com aol.com. FYI, the code that does this is here: https://github.com/biviosoftware/perl-Bivio/blob/master/Mail/Outgoing.pm#L387 (Trying not hijack and promote my own project, here, but then again> it is the reason I started using Xapian :) > > Things like this Yahoo change is one of the reasons I chose to take an > "archives first" approach to mailing lists with public-inbox. Email > gets dumped into a git repository whic can get mirrored and synced > efficiently. Readers can subscribe via git://, Atom feed or follow > along on a Xapian-backed website. I'll hopefully have an NNTP > server up in a week or so. >Neat idea. Thanks for sharing. :)> > Having these options will hopefully avoid problems of push-based SMTP > delivery. Unfortunately most mailing list participants are still used > to getting email pushed to them. >IMHO: Email is still the killer app. :) What did you use to read and reply to this? Good archival software is helpful especially with Xapian, but we've found that the more you can do via a user's MUA, the more they'll like your software. :) Cheers, Rob