wine users - Mar 2008 - RFD: create new list and forum 'wine-newbies'

It has been suggested that the wine-users list
is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
However, this might leave the beginners adrift
without any experienced people to help them.

So I don't think we should do it unless at least
a handful of experienced users are willing to join the
new group and lend a hand.  I'm willing, but I
can't do it all myself.

Who else would be willing to join a wine-newbies
list/forum and help support beginners?
- Dan

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Dan Kegel <dank at kegel.com>
wrote:
> It has been suggested that the wine-users list
>  is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
>  one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
>  However, this might leave the beginners adrift
>  without any experienced people to help them.
>
>  So I don't think we should do it unless at least
>  a handful of experienced users are willing to join the
>  new group and lend a hand.  I'm willing, but I
>  can't do it all myself.
>
>  Who else would be willing to join a wine-newbies
>  list/forum and help support beginners?
>  - Dan
>
>
I can help, but I don't have as much free time this semester. Quick
advice isn't as hard, but testing apps for recipes, etc. isn't as
likely to happen.

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Dan Kegel <dank at kegel.com>
wrote:
> It has been suggested that the wine-users list
>  is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
>  one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
>  However, this might leave the beginners adrift
>  without any experienced people to help them.
>
>  So I don't think we should do it unless at least
>  a handful of experienced users are willing to join the
>  new group and lend a hand.  I'm willing, but I
>  can't do it all myself.
>
>  Who else would be willing to join a wine-newbies
>  list/forum and help support beginners?
>  - Dan
Dan,
   I'm willing to help although being experienced at my level may not
be all that helpful. Who knows until I try, right? ;-)

   I'm sure I'd learn more by helping more.

   Personally I'd prefer the list not be split. It seems a shame that
this forum link gets added which then causes more traffic and that
traffic drives away our more experienced users. As an alternative,
decouple the forum and the list and get helpful folks to pay attention
to the forums. The original wine-users list is unchanged and the
forums succeed or fail on their own merits.

   Count me in if I can help out.

Cheers,
Mark

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Dan Kegel <dank at kegel.com>
wrote:
> It has been suggested that the wine-users list
>  is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
>  one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
>  However, this might leave the beginners adrift
>  without any experienced people to help them.
>
>  So I don't think we should do it unless at least
>  a handful of experienced users are willing to join the
>  new group and lend a hand.  I'm willing, but I
>  can't do it all myself.
>  Who else would be willing to join a wine-newbies
>  list/forum and help support beginners?
>  - Dan
>
>
I agree with Dan that I don't think that splitting the users list is
worthwhile.  It simply fragments for the sake of reducing traffic.  We
_FINALLY_ have some communication between the Wine community and our
users looking for help and hopefully they are getting they help they
need and we're learning how to avoid common trouble spots and fix them
(And I do think this is happening).


-Z

Dan Kegel skrev:
> It has been suggested that the wine-users list
> is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
> one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
> However, this might leave the beginners adrift
> without any experienced people to help them.
Well, I don't see why that would be the case. How much experience could 
you possibly need to tell users that they need to doubleclick .exe files 
to run them, which seems to be a majority of the issues around here? 
That's the kind of thing even beginners might be able to help each other 
with...

And once the users have learned how to doubleclick and stuff, they can 
then leave wine-newbies and seek further enlightenment from the wise 
guys at wine-users. Perhaps that might work...?

Dan, you contradict yourself. First you want a forum so bad that everyone starts
running like a chicken with cut-off head to make that happen. Now you saying
it's bad?!

So far I've seen only two-four snubs who think they are supper-duper
advanced users who don't want to talk about anything but
"advanced" topics. For me those people are welcome to leave and open
their own forum, mailing list whatever. Oh, and if they thought that wine-users
ML was "advanced" - THEY ARE WRONG. You just had no one to point out
how wrong most of the answers were.

If anyone thinks they are too smart to answer dumb questions - don't answer
them. Mark the thread as read and move on. If that's even too much - then
don't pretend being a part of the community - leave and no one will even
notice.

This topics have to end.
1. We are not going to separate forum from ML (in few month there won't be
any need - as there are would be much more forum users then active ML posters).
2. No one will be creating special area for advanced users. If you are so
advance - be a developer or evaluate your knowledge about Wine.
3. Noise to signal ratio - BS count the number of all posts 2 months ago and
now. I'll tell you that in an entire month there was max 10 replys worth
reading.

Dan Kegel wrote:
> It has been suggested that the wine-users list
> is now too busy, and needs to be split into two:
> one for experienced users, and one for beginners.
> However, this might leave the beginners adrift
> without any experienced people to help them.
>
> So I don't think we should do it unless at least
> a handful of experienced users are willing to join the
> new group and lend a hand.  I'm willing, but I
> can't do it all myself.
>
> Who else would be willing to join a wine-newbies
> list/forum and help support beginners?
> - Dan
>
>   
Dan:

I'm willing to help with the newbie problems if they are new and the 
program is publically accessible.

James McKenzie

I will be kinda blunt.  Number 1 wine-users was always ment for all wine users. 
Now wine-newbies could be taken as insulting by some people.

If there is truly a need to change the mail list most neutral change is not
shoving the inexperienced into there own group with a bad name.  But to create a
wine-advanced or something like that for the more advanced users.  We all ready
have a developers mailing list.  So there better be good grounds.

I have to live with all coming in the winehq IRC channel.  The newbies being the
the wine-user group would have happened soon or latter.  At first winehq on
freenode was very newbie free until using irc became simpler.  Since these days
its just point and click we get mountains of them.

Only reason these so called newbies have not been in the mail list is lack of
skill to find it and join.  Also people like me are not in the mailing list
because my mail box is already too full.

Note most people will not post lots of questions in channels with the word
newbie in it either.

So your closed shop mailing list has ended.  Just grow up and live with it.

Been thinking.  Something critical in the forum is missing.  Yes we have a
welcome message.  Do we have a message point users to where they can get there
assistance straight up no.  Mailing lists always had faq's to keep traffic
down.   Busy ones normally did monthly updates to keep posts down.  In Welcome
message is too hidden.  Read the Guide I can tell you now 90 percent will not
be.    http://wiki.winehq.org/ForumGuidelines << contents in a direct
stick message at top.  Far more effective.   Experience from other forums
don't expect people to read rules of forum on second link in.   Even a
virtual post at top is more effective.

Modern day user problem see forum click threw to there don't read else
where.

It all about getting use to it.   What you have to wake up is that so call
newbies are getting more skilled.  About 10 years ago they would not find irc. 
Instead more often find newsgroups.  Since users were using newsgroups more.

Its just a progression.    Even if you unlink the forum/mailing list all you are
doing is buying time.   Sooner or latter mailing lists will become popular
again.  All it would really take is a few beginner books published showing
number one how to use mailing lists number two saying that they are the best way
to get answers.  Even worse is if email clients start making using mail lists
very point and click.

Other thing documentation of wine needs a lot of work.  You want rid of them
lets make it simple.  Good documentation reduces it.   Good redirection to good
documentation also reduce it.   But it will be heavy than it was before that is
just expectable.

No point thinking about splitting until you have attempted to reduce.  Since one
day you will need good traffic reduce method might as well sort them out now. 
Still the same comment get use it.   Basically meaning find the problems and fix
them.

Mark Knecht wrote:
> I wonder if there is a gentle way to get newbies to go find demo
> versions themselves that we can download and try out ourselves,
> understanding there are fewer things that we can do if there aren't
> demo versions of the program available.
I think certainly if demos exist they should be included on the AppDB pages but
would it also be worth adding a section on the AppDB page that listed some
native alternatives that did the same job, I mean for most word processing do
people really need to use Word or do they just need an application that can
read/write Word files if necessary?

Paul Johnson  	PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:57 am
> That's a good thing, though. At least mailing lists are usable even if
the
> content often isn't. Forums are just slow and a pain in the ass to use
> compared to email. About the only way you can make a forum worse or a
> mailing list less functional is to attach it to a broken forum2mail gateway
> that stomps threads and allows people to reply without quoting. 

To you forums might be pain in ass but not to others.   Newbies stomp on threads
anyhow.   Reply without quoting is also a newbie mistake on a mailing lists. 
Just the stuffup forum2mail gateway made it worse.

Now a error in the forum engine that is a valid reason to split the mailing list
temp.  winehq-forum.   Note words.   If its just due to numbers of newbie is
just get over it.   They would have been there sooner or latter.

I guess some of my posts have been with out title too making problem worse.  
Thinking answering without title is a normal forum thing but not a mailing list.
If so that is a another back end engine problem.