Vorbis - Apr 2015 - MP3/Vorbis/Opus: What I think I hear

Hi!

Sorry, I know the rules for comparing objective subjective listening
impressions, but I'd like to know whether from the algorithmic or
implementer's point of view the following personal impressions can be
confirmed:

Comparing MP3 with Vorbis at rather high bitrates, I had the impression the
Vorbis sounded more crispy, while MP3 sounded somewhat softened.  I preferred
Vorbis for that reason.
When comparing Opus to Vorbis, I got the impression that Opus has a slight
tendency towards MP3, but noe I feel Vorbis' crispyness is maybe a little
too much, and I think I'll prefer Opus. Unfortunately my search for a good
free player for Android was not very successful (the shipped players all
can't play Opus, and I think you can't just install codes, or can you?)

Regards,
Ulrich

"Unfortunately my search for a good free player for Android was not very
successful" - I presume you are using an Android device.
If that's the case, portable devices have really bad electronics from the
point of view of HiFi - because of low voltage and output amplitude being close
to power rails.
My point is that you are not really comparing one lossy format to another, but
rather how the lossy formats artifact sound on bad electronics.
"you can't just install codes" - players for all the formats you
mention exist as command line applications, and there are interactive shells for
Android.
--Sergei.

 
      From: Ulrich Windl <Ulrich.Windl at rz.uni-regensburg.de>
 To: vorbis at xiph.org 
 Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 9:06 AM
 Subject: [Vorbis] MP3/Vorbis/Opus: What I think I hear
   
Hi!

Sorry, I know the rules for comparing objective subjective listening
impressions, but I'd like to know whether from the algorithmic or
implementer's point of view the following personal impressions can be
confirmed:

Comparing MP3 with Vorbis at rather high bitrates, I had the impression the
Vorbis sounded more crispy, while MP3 sounded somewhat softened.? I preferred
Vorbis for that reason.
When comparing Opus to Vorbis, I got the impression that Opus has a slight
tendency towards MP3, but noe I feel Vorbis' crispyness is maybe a little
too much, and I think I'll prefer Opus. Unfortunately my search for a good
free player for Android was not very successful (the shipped players all
can't play Opus, and I think you can't just install codes, or can you?)

Regards,
Ulrich


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>>> Sergei Steshenko <sergstesh at yahoo.com> schrieb am
30.04.2015 um 10:49 in
Nachricht <1532751402.1098106.1430383790973.JavaMail.yahoo at
mail.yahoo.com>:
> "Unfortunately my search for a good free player for Android was not
very
> successful" - I presume you are using an Android device.
Yes, but you conclusions are wrong: I mostly listen on Android, simply because
most time I'm not at home. But the comparison was made with my PC (Intel HD
Audio, foobar2000) and good headphones...
> If that's the case, portable devices have really bad electronics from
the
> point of view of HiFi - because of low voltage and output amplitude being 
> close to power rails.
I know: While my Samsung YEPP had 30 levels for volume, my Galaxy S II has 10
(my older Motorola Z8 only had 8).
> My point is that you are not really comparing one lossy format to another, 
> but rather how the lossy formats artifact sound on bad electronics.
Every chain has some weakest link, but see above.
> "you can't just install codes" - players for all the formats
you mention
> exist as command line applications, and there are interactive shells for 
> Android.
Thanks, I'll try...

Ulrich
> --Sergei.
> 
>  
>       From: Ulrich Windl <Ulrich.Windl at rz.uni-regensburg.de>
>  To: vorbis at xiph.org 
>  Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 9:06 AM
>  Subject: [Vorbis] MP3/Vorbis/Opus: What I think I hear
>    
> Hi!
> 
> Sorry, I know the rules for comparing objective subjective listening 
> impressions, but I'd like to know whether from the algorithmic or 
> implementer's point of view the following personal impressions can be 
> confirmed:
> 
> Comparing MP3 with Vorbis at rather high bitrates, I had the impression the
> Vorbis sounded more crispy, while MP3 sounded somewhat softened.  I
preferred
> Vorbis for that reason.
> When comparing Opus to Vorbis, I got the impression that Opus has a slight 
> tendency towards MP3, but noe I feel Vorbis' crispyness is maybe a
little too
> much, and I think I'll prefer Opus. Unfortunately my search for a good
free
> player for Android was not very successful (the shipped players all
can't
> play Opus, and I think you can't just install codes, or can you?)
> 
> Regards,
> Ulrich
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Vorbis mailing list
> Vorbis at xiph.org 
> http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/vorbis 
> 
> 
>

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 08:06:21 AM Ulrich Windl
wrote:
>[...]Unfortunately my search for a good free player [that supports opus] 
> for Android was not
> very successful (the shipped players all can't play Opus, and I think
you
> can't just install codes, or can you?)
Sorry for the long delay, I've been meaning to reply to this part for two 
weeks.

VLC for Android seems to handle .opus files (along with .ogg and .flac and
just about everything else) just fine. I've been using it for a couple of 
years now.  It should be available in the Google "Play Store", and I 
know for certain that it's in the f-droid[1] repository/"app
store" as well.

There are also other opus-supporting players out there, but I've not used
any other than VLC.

Also, as of "Lollipop", Android is SUPPOSED to natively support opus,
but
there's still what seems to be a stupid bug[2] preventing it from working
right.
(If I'm understanding the situation, the codec is supported just fine, but
 Google forgot to tell Android that ".opus"  [opus in ogg] was an
actual media
 file that it should recognize.  I've seen reports that if you manage to
 "force" a native player to try to play a .opus file it actually works
 currently, but the native system doesn't recognize ".opus" as a
media
 file...or something like that. Hopefully the next point-release of
"Lollipop"
 will finish fixing that bug, and then hypothetically any of the
"native"
 media players will support it).

[1] http://f-droid.org
[2] https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=80729

>>> Ivan Privaci <epicanis+xiph at bigroom.org> schrieb am
15.05.2015 um 21:11 in
Nachricht <4280454.DgYMHeydIm at squirrel>:
> On Thursday, April 30, 2015 08:06:21 AM Ulrich Windl wrote:
>>[...]Unfortunately my search for a good free player [that supports opus]
>> for Android was not
>> very successful (the shipped players all can't play Opus, and I
think you
>> can't just install codes, or can you?)
> 
> Sorry for the long delay, I've been meaning to reply to this part for
two
> weeks.
> 
> VLC for Android seems to handle .opus files (along with .ogg and .flac and
> just about everything else) just fine. I've been using it for a couple
of
> years now.  It should be available in the Google "Play Store",
and I
> know for certain that it's in the f-droid[1] repository/"app
store" as well.
Thanks for answering! Actually I knew this, but didn't try, because:
The Windows version will play the audio files, but the GUI is designed for
videos, not for audio, and I lack features like "music library" (view
by albums, artists, year, etc.).
Foobar 2000 for ANdroid would be the thing I guess ;-)
> 
> There are also other opus-supporting players out there, but I've not
used
> any other than VLC.
I tried a few, but they failed by usability expectations.
> 
> Also, as of "Lollipop", Android is SUPPOSED to natively support
opus, but
> there's still what seems to be a stupid bug[2] preventing it from
working
> right.
Good to know. I'd only wish that mobile phone vendors would update their
firmware (Android) longer. I just don't want to buy new hardware, just
because software is a XXXXX (censored).
> (If I'm understanding the situation, the codec is supported just fine,
but
>  Google forgot to tell Android that ".opus"  [opus in ogg] was an
actual
> media
>  file that it should recognize.  I've seen reports that if you manage
to
>  "force" a native player to try to play a .opus file it actually
works
>  currently, but the native system doesn't recognize ".opus"
as a media
>  file...or something like that. Hopefully the next point-release of 
> "Lollipop"
>  will finish fixing that bug, and then hypothetically any of the
"native"
>  media players will support it).
I the the light at the end of a very long tunnel ;-)

Thanks!

Ulrich
> 
> [1] http://f-droid.org 
> [2] https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=80729 
> _______________________________________________
> Vorbis mailing list
> Vorbis at xiph.org 
> http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/vorbis