Rails - Aug 2010 - <b> tag in HTML 5 (was Re: Re: assert_select for <p><b>text</b>value</p>)

On 30 August 2010 15:47, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> Colin Law wrote:
>> I have the following html
>> <p><b>text</b>value</p>
>> I can use
>> assert_select "p>b", "text"
>> to check the text portion, and
>> assert_select "p", "value"
>> to check that the value appears in a <p>.  I cannot work out how
to
>> check that the two are in the same <p>.  I have used
assert_select for
>> much more complex tasks but my mind seems to have gone blank and
>> google has not provided an example of this type.
>>
>> Any help would be much appreciated.
>
> First off: you shouldn''t ever be using <b> tags.
 That''s 1990s physical
> styling.  That''s *bad*.  You should be using a semantically named
<span>
> instead.  But you probably knew that already.
Actually, it''s back in in HTML5...

http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-b-element

Everything old is new again.

Chris

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Chris Mear wrote:
> On 30 August 2010 15:47, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>>> google has not provided an example of this type.
>>>
>>> Any help would be much appreciated.
>>
>> First off: you shouldn''t ever be using <b> tags.
�That''s 1990s physical
>> styling. �That''s *bad*. �You should be using a semantically
named <span>
>> instead. �But you probably knew that already.
> 
> Actually, it''s back in in HTML5...
> 
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-b-element
> 
> Everything old is new again.
> 
I didn''t say it was invalid HTML.  I said it was *bad practice*.
> Chris
Best,
--
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http://www.marnen.org
marnen-sbuyVjPbboAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org
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On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> I didn''t say it was invalid HTML.  I said it was *bad practice*.
Yeah, that''s why it''s in the spec, ''cause no one
should use it.

/rolls eyes



-- 
Greg Donald
destiney.com | gregdonald.com

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On 30 August 2010 16:44, Chris Mear
<chrismear-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> On 30 August 2010 15:47, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Colin Law wrote:
>>> I have the following html
>>> <p><b>text</b>value</p>
>>> I can use
>>> assert_select "p>b", "text"
>>> to check the text portion, and
>>> assert_select "p", "value"
>>> to check that the value appears in a <p>.  I cannot work out
how to
>>> check that the two are in the same <p>.  I have used
assert_select for
>>> much more complex tasks but my mind seems to have gone blank and
>>> google has not provided an example of this type.
>>>
>>> Any help would be much appreciated.
>>
>> First off: you shouldn''t ever be using <b> tags.
 That''s 1990s physical
>> styling.  That''s *bad*.  You should be using a semantically
named <span>
>> instead.  But you probably knew that already.
>
> Actually, it''s back in in HTML5...
>
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-b-element
>
> Everything old is new again.
Though actually I think my use case is not such as described there, it
being a list of column names (bold) and values, generated by a Rails
scaffold some years ago.

Colin

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On 30 August 2010 16:44, Chris Mear
<chrismear-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> On 30 August 2010 15:47, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> Colin Law wrote:
>>> I have the following html
>>> <p><b>text</b>value</p>
>>> I can use
>>> assert_select "p>b", "text"
>>> to check the text portion, and
>>> assert_select "p", "value"
>>> to check that the value appears in a <p>.  I cannot work out
how to
>>> check that the two are in the same <p>.  I have used
assert_select for
>>> much more complex tasks but my mind seems to have gone blank and
>>> google has not provided an example of this type.
>>>
>>> Any help would be much appreciated.
>>
>> First off: you shouldn''t ever be using <b> tags.
 That''s 1990s physical
>> styling.  That''s *bad*.  You should be using a semantically
named <span>
>> instead.  But you probably knew that already.
>
> Actually, it''s back in in HTML5...
>
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-b-element
>
> Everything old is new again.
Though actually I think my use case is not such as described there, it
being a list of column names (bold) and values, generated by a Rails
scaffold some years ago.

Colin

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Colin Law wrote:
> On 30 August 2010 16:44, Chris Mear
<chrismear-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>> much more complex tasks but my mind seems to have gone blank
and
>> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-b-element
>>
>> Everything old is new again.
> 
> Though actually I think my use case is not such as described there, it
> being a list of column names (bold) and values, generated by a Rails
> scaffold some years ago.
Then you absolutely should not be using <b>.  Use something semantic 
instead, or if your design supports it, recast the whole thing into a 
<table> and use <th> and <td> (which is what I''d
normally do).  The
semantics are tabular, so a <table> element would be quite appropriate.
> 
> Colin
Best,
--
Marnen Laibow-Koser
http://www.marnen.org
marnen-sbuyVjPbboAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org
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On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Greg Donald
<gdonald-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
> <lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> I didn''t say it was invalid HTML.  I said it was *bad
practice*.
>
> Yeah, that''s why it''s in the spec, ''cause no one
should use it.
>
> /rolls eyes
+1.  If only marnen were in charge....  ;-)

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Bill Walton wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Greg Donald
<gdonald-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
>> <lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>> I didn''t say it was invalid HTML. �I said it was *bad
practice*.
>>
>> Yeah, that''s why it''s in the spec, ''cause no
one should use it.
>>
>> /rolls eyes
> 
> +1.  If only marnen were in charge....  ;-)
The HTML 5 spec itself says <b> is only to be used as a last resort if 
no other element is more appropriate.  IMHO, that''s never the case:
even
if nothing more specific can be found, <span> is more appropriate than 
<b>.

I assume <b> is in the spec for backward compatibility with legacy 
markup.

One more time: I didn''t say <b> is invalid.  I didn''t
say <b> should be
removed from the spec.  I didn''t say I wanted to be in charge of the 
HTML 5 spec.  I said <b> is bad practice and should be avoided.  I stand 
by that statement.

Best,
--
Marnen Laibow-Koser
http://www.marnen.org
marnen-sbuyVjPbboAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org
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On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 12:23 PM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
>> +1.  If only marnen were in charge....  ;-)
>
> The HTML 5 spec itself says <b> is only to be used as a last resort
if
> no other element is more appropriate.  IMHO, that''s never the
case:
So go get yourself on the HTML5 committee, you can help them un-think
that last resort case they thought of.
>  even
> if nothing more specific can be found, <span> is more appropriate
than
> <b>.
Because it''s always more appropriate to type more than you have to?

<b>foo</b>

<span>foo</span>

span{font-weight:bold;}


-- 
Greg Donald
destiney.com | gregdonald.com

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Marnen Laibow-Koser wrote:
> Bill Walton wrote:
>> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Greg Donald
<gdonald-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
>>> <lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>> I didn''t say it was invalid HTML. �I said it was *bad
practice*.
>>>
>>> Yeah, that''s why it''s in the spec,
''cause no one should use it.
>>>
>>> /rolls eyes
>> 
>> +1.  If only marnen were in charge....  ;-)
> 
> The HTML 5 spec itself says <b> is only to be used as a last resort
if
> no other element is more appropriate.  IMHO, that''s never the
case: even
> if nothing more specific can be found, <span> is more appropriate
than
> <b>.
I have to agree with Marnen. Are we criticizing people for emphasizing 
exactly what the HTML5 spec states now?

I agree that <b> is maintained in the spec solely for backward 
compatibility. I see no use case for a "proper" use of <b>. That
tag
suggests too specific a styling (boldened). As recommended by the spec 
<strong>, <em> or <mark> are more appropriate in most cases.

Here is the <strong>incorrect</strong> example presented in the
spec:

<p><b>WARNING!</b> Do not frob the barbinator!</p>

In the above case the appropriate tag would be <strong> not <b>.

The <strong> tag suggests "WARNING!" should be presented
"strongly"
without specifically suggesting "boldened." That may mean,
"Display
WARNING! in yellow (and bold too)."
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On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Robert Walker
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> Marnen Laibow-Koser wrote:
>> Bill Walton wrote:
>>> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Greg Donald
<gdonald-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Marnen Laibow-Koser
>>>> <lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>>> I didn''t say it was invalid HTML. �I said it was
*bad practice*.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, that''s why it''s in the spec,
''cause no one should use it.
>>>>
>>>> /rolls eyes
>>>
>>> +1.  If only marnen were in charge....  ;-)
>>
>> The HTML 5 spec itself says <b> is only to be used as a last
resort if
>> no other element is more appropriate.  IMHO, that''s never the
case: even
>> if nothing more specific can be found, <span> is more appropriate
than
>> <b>.
>
> I have to agree with Marnen. Are we criticizing people for emphasizing
> exactly what the HTML5 spec states now?
Speaking for myself, I am criticizing marnen''s obnoxious and
judgmental posts.  A post such as yours that takes the time to explain
to a poster why one approach is favored over another is welcome,
"that''s bad" is simply an unsubstantiated opinion.  If
he''s not going
to provide assistance, he should either keep his mouth shut or be
ready to be chastised / derided in the same manner he treats others.

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On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Bill Walton
<bwalton.im-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> Speaking for myself, I am criticizing marnen''s obnoxious and
> judgmental posts.  A post such as yours that takes the time to explain
> to a poster why one approach is favored over another is welcome,
> "that''s bad" is simply an unsubstantiated opinion.  If
he''s not going
> to provide assistance, he should either keep his mouth shut or be
> ready to be chastised / derided in the same manner he treats others.
Ditto.


-- 
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destiney.com | gregdonald.com

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Bill Walton wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Robert Walker
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> +1.  If only marnen were in charge....  ;-)
>>>
>>> The HTML 5 spec itself says <b> is only to be used as a last
resort if
>>> no other element is more appropriate.  IMHO, that''s never
the case: even
>>> if nothing more specific can be found, <span> is more
appropriate than
>>> <b>.
>>
>> I have to agree with Marnen. Are we criticizing people for emphasizing
>> exactly what the HTML5 spec states now?
> 
> Speaking for myself, I am criticizing marnen''s obnoxious and
> judgmental posts.
I didn''t intend to be obnoxious.  I *did* intend to be judgmental of
bad
practice.
>  A post such as yours that takes the time to explain
> to a poster why one approach is favored over another is welcome,
> "that''s bad" is simply an unsubstantiated opinion.  
I explained my rationale in an earlier post.   You appatently neither 
read it nor asked for the clarification which I would have been happy to 
reiterate if requested.  This is not the first time that you''ve taken
me
to task for supposedly failing to provide information that I in fact 
provided.

Legitimate criticism is welcome.  But if you can''t bother to check that
the criticism is borne out by the facts, then please don''t bother to 
post it.
> If he''s not going
> to provide assistance, he should either keep his mouth shut or be
> ready to be chastised / derided in the same manner he treats others.
I provide lots of assistance, and regularly get thanked for it.  If 
you''re going to criticize something about my posts, please make sure
the
criticism actually applies.  In this case, your stated criticism was 
simply inaccurate.

Best,
-- 
Marnen Laibow-Koser
http://www.marnen.org
marnen-sbuyVjPbboAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org

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On 30 August 2010 18:02, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> Colin Law wrote:
>> On 30 August 2010 16:44, Chris Mear
<chrismear-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>>> much more complex tasks but my mind seems to have gone
blank and
>>> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-b-element
>>>
>>> Everything old is new again.
>>
>> Though actually I think my use case is not such as described there, it
>> being a list of column names (bold) and values, generated by a Rails
>> scaffold some years ago.
>
> Then you absolutely should not be using <b>.  Use something semantic
> instead, or if your design supports it, recast the whole thing into a
> <table> and use <th> and <td> (which is what I''d
normally do).  The
> semantics are tabular, so a <table> element would be quite
appropriate.
As I said before, I agree entirely.  But as I also said before it is a
little used admin page and so improving the aesthetics of the html is
not the most important job at the moment.

Colin

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Colin Law wrote:
> On 30 August 2010 18:02, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Then you absolutely should not be using <b>. �Use something
semantic
>> instead, or if your design supports it, recast the whole thing into a
>> <table> and use <th> and <td> (which is what
I''d normally do). �The
>> semantics are tabular, so a <table> element would be quite
appropriate.
> 
> As I said before, I agree entirely.  But as I also said before it is a
> little used admin page and so improving the aesthetics of the html is
> not the most important job at the moment.
> 
I quite understand that, though at the same time I like to take a "fix 
broken windows" approach -- that is, I like to fix obvious small 
problems if I''m working on the file anyway.
> Colin
Best,
-- 
Marnen Laibow-Koser
http://www.marnen.org
marnen-sbuyVjPbboAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org

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On 30 August 2010 21:50, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>
wrote:
> Colin Law wrote:
>> On 30 August 2010 18:02, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Then you absolutely should not be using <b>. �Use something
semantic
>>> instead, or if your design supports it, recast the whole thing into
a
>>> <table> and use <th> and <td> (which is what
I''d normally do). �The
>>> semantics are tabular, so a <table> element would be quite
appropriate.
>>
>> As I said before, I agree entirely.  But as I also said before it is a
>> little used admin page and so improving the aesthetics of the html is
>> not the most important job at the moment.
>>
>
> I quite understand that, though at the same time I like to take a "fix
> broken windows" approach -- that is, I like to fix obvious small
> problems if I''m working on the file anyway.
>
Agreed again, I am not actually modifying that page, just adding a
test for a special case.

Cheers

Colin

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Colin Law wrote:
> On 30 August 2010 21:50, Marnen Laibow-Koser
<lists-fsXkhYbjdPsEEoCn2XhGlw@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>>> little used admin page and so improving the aesthetics of the html
is
>>> not the most important job at the moment.
>>>
>>
>> I quite understand that, though at the same time I like to take a
"fix
>> broken windows" approach -- that is, I like to fix obvious small
>> problems if I''m working on the file anyway.
>>
> 
> Agreed again, I am not actually modifying that page, just adding a
> test for a special case.
Sure, that makes sense.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Colin
Best,
--
Marnen Laibow-Koser
http://www.marnen.org
marnen-sbuyVjPbboAdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org
-- 
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