I''ve been having some trouble tracking down someone to hire for a Rails position, so I figured I''d try here. Monster and 37signals haven''t been much help so far. I think getting people to sit at a desk in Milwaukee is the tough part, but upper management isn''t willing to budge on that. So here the current job posting we have. The right candidate would get 55-65k per year. Email me at rails-job-tE63jcV50OZ54TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org if you''re interested. Thanks, Andre ------------ Job Description IMS, the US B2B barter industry leader, is looking to hire our first full-time web developer for a recently rewritten Rails site. We need someone who''s a programmer first, but can hold their own on the graphics side... You don''t have to be a great designer, but you should easily be able to explain the difference between a great site and just an okay site. Good design skills would be a plus, however. You should be excited about good UI, and have some ideas of how to implement it. The IMS website currently offers our membership access to their accounts (statements, balances, etc.), a searchable directory of what our members are currently selling, and an e-commerce marketplace. In the near future, the web developer position will extend our website to not only make it easier for members to do business with each other, but also offer tailored buying suggestions to help them save cash through barter. To put it simply, the IMS website is like a combination of online banking, yellow pages, and e-commerce. When sending your resume, please send a portfolio of site(s) you''ve created. Job requirements: - 2+ web programming experience, and ideally have some Rails experience - Intermediate experience working with MySQL - Enough *nix knowledge to run an Apache/Mongrel setup - Excellent HTML/CSS with cross-browser compatibility experience - Enough Adobe software knowledge to get around - And pretty decent writing/grammar - Flash experience is irrelevant to this position -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Fri, Nov 30, 2007 at 07:31:54PM +0100, Andre Robitaille wrote:> > I''ve been having some trouble tracking down someone to hire for a Rails > position, so I figured I''d try here. Monster and 37signals haven''t been > much help so far. I think getting people to sit at a desk in Milwaukee > is the tough part, but upper management isn''t willing to budge on that. > So here the current job posting we have. The right candidate would get > 55-65k per year. Email me at rails-job-tE63jcV50OZ54TAoqtyWWQ@public.gmane.org if you''re > interested.I''m probably wasting my time here, but I''m going to try to give you some perspective on why you might have trouble filling this job. First, let''s split your pool of candidates into those who already live in Milwaukee and those who would have to relocate. I''m not sure what the going rate for web programmers with 2+ years of experience is in Milwaukee, but I can tell you that your salary range falls short by tens of thousands of dollars for where I am. I think you''ll have a hard time getting someone to relocate to Milwaukee with a salary offer like that. If someone was willing to relocate, there are much more lucrative jobs available even taking into account differences in cost of living. Now, for those who already live in Milwaukee, there are those who prefer to work in an office, those who prefer to work remotely, and those who could go either way. The ones who prefer to work remotely are right out, so you''re down to those who either want an office or will go either way. If they''ll go either way, they can find much better paying work remotely, so you''re unlikely to be able to attract them with that salary range. Out of the remaining pool you only want those who have some confidence in their aesthetic sense (or that second sentence will scare them away) and not only have some design skills but are looking for a job that might use them. Further restricting your pool is the Adobe software experience, however cursory. Worse, you want *nix knowledge. So the Linux-heads who have never had cause to touch Adobe software are out, as are the Windows-heads who have never touched a *nix box. This may or may not significantly restrict your pool. So here you are, looking for a Milwaukee resident (or someone who has a reason other than a job to relocate to Milwaukee, in which case they are imminently Milwaukee residents anyway and the point is moot) who prefers working in an office, has 2+ years of web programming, has some graphics design ability, fulfills the various other requirements, and is actually looking for a job in that salary range. You''re screwed. While I''m willing to believe that the requirements you''re listing are appropriate and reasonable, I don''t think you can find someone to do that job at that salary. Milwaukee may be a perfectly nice place to live and work, but if you can''t draw from the larger pool of potential candidates throughout the country, you won''t be able to find anyone. Even lifting the restriction on remote work (which you claim is a non-starter) may not be enough since, as I mentioned, there is more lucrative work out there for remote workers. You need to raise your salary range significantly. Alternately, don''t publish a range and request a desired salary from your applicants. Maybe offer to pay relocation expenses. That will give you some sense of how much money people are expecting for the kind of job opening you have. I can''t give you an exact number, but I can tell you that you''re aiming too low right now.> Thanks, > Andre--Greg> ------------ > Job Description > > IMS, the US B2B barter industry leader, is looking to hire our first > full-time web developer for a recently rewritten Rails site. We need > someone who''s a programmer first, but can hold their own on the graphics > side... You don''t have to be a great designer, but you should easily be > able to explain the difference between a great site and just an okay > site. Good design skills would be a plus, however. You should be > excited about good UI, and have some ideas of how to implement it. > > The IMS website currently offers our membership access to their accounts > (statements, balances, etc.), a searchable directory of what our members > are currently selling, and an e-commerce marketplace. In the near > future, the web developer position will extend our website to not only > make it easier for members to do business with each other, but also > offer tailored buying suggestions to help them save cash through barter. > To put it simply, the IMS website is like a combination of online > banking, yellow pages, and e-commerce. > > When sending your resume, please send a portfolio of site(s) you''ve > created. > > Job requirements: > - 2+ web programming experience, and ideally have some Rails experience > - Intermediate experience working with MySQL > - Enough *nix knowledge to run an Apache/Mongrel setup > - Excellent HTML/CSS with cross-browser compatibility experience > - Enough Adobe software knowledge to get around > - And pretty decent writing/grammar > - Flash experience is irrelevant to this position > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > > > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Gregory Seidman wrote:> So here you are, looking for a Milwaukee resident (or someone who has a > reason other than a job to relocate to Milwaukee, in which case they are > imminently Milwaukee residents anyway and the point is moot) who prefers > working in an office, has 2+ years of web programming, has some graphics > design ability, fulfills the various other requirements, and is actually > looking for a job in that salary range. You''re screwed.Hi Greg, Most of the people responding that I''ve talked to so far are actually asking for far less than what I''m offering. Now none of those people have Rails experience, and are a year or two short of the ideal experience, but I figured a $10k jump covers that. I guess it just didn''t seem so far-fetched to me. There are three people sitting here who can do the work now, myself included, and two of us have RoR experience. Light design , coding experience, and the ability to configure Apache by hand don''t seem that big of a deal. Thanks for the insight, though. Maybe that''s what the job pool has to offer these days. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Nov 30, 2007 1:45 PM, Gregory Seidman <gsslist+ror-dNXPQ6k9rNiG6BJUYyje5axOck334EZe@public.gmane.org> wrote:> I can''t give you an exact number, but I can tell you that you''re > aiming too low right now.Way too low, especially for a good Rails coder. Even if it''s successfully sold as an "opportunity to work with Rails" ( I''ve seen a bunch of those the past year), the coder will no doubt find a better job after gaining a few months experience. Nice response post there Greg0r. I had very similar thoughts when I read the initial post. -- Greg Donald http://destiney.com/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Greg Donald wrote:> On Nov 30, 2007 1:45 PM, Gregory Seidman > <gsslist+ror-dNXPQ6k9rNiG6BJUYyje5axOck334EZe@public.gmane.org> wrote: >> I can''t give you an exact number, but I can tell you that you''re >> aiming too low right now. > > Way too low, especially for a good Rails coder. Even if it''s > successfully sold as an "opportunity to work with Rails" ( I''ve seen a > bunch of those the past year), the coder will no doubt find a better > job after gaining a few months experience. > > Nice response post there Greg0r. I had very similar thoughts when I > read the initial post. > > > -- > Greg Donald > http://destiney.com/I am not moving anymore. I am tired of moving. It is cold there, and I can get $120,000 in DC/Baltimore, if I want to move back. You ARE looking for a top coder. Now, there are a lot of news paper jobs, work remote, that requires the same experience, that pay a LOT more. My friend just got a call from a lady looking for someone with 3 years ROR experience, C#/ASP back ground, .net, flash, UML, php, and SQL. He told her to try *god* or the guy that wrote ruby. or maybe greg. but he don''t sound cheap. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Nov 30, 2007 2:24 PM, Trent Black <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> or maybe greg. but he don''t sound cheap.Thanks, but I''m not currently available for hire. I just got my dream job a few months back. Genetics research application development at a local medical university using, you guessed it.. Ruby on Rails. I deploy to Oracle which is damn yucky, but locally I use Postgres. You couldn''t pry me away from this gig if you had all the New Castle in the world. -- Greg Donald http://destiney.com/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Greg Donald wrote:> You couldn''t pry me away from this gig if you had all the New Castle in the world.So you''re thinking that I would get better results by including a year''s supply of Newcastle? -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
On Nov 30, 2007 2:42 PM, Andre Robitaille <rails-mailing-list-ARtvInVfO7ksV2N9l4h3zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:> So you''re thinking that I would get better results by including a year''s > supply of Newcastle?I''m not sure what you need to do. I just know I wouldn''t do Rails development for $65K/year. I, like many others on this list, have spent a great deal of time and effort teaching Rails to ourselves and we want to get paid for it. Rails is shiny and new and people who know it well, right now today, have proven initiative to go out and learn new technologies all on their own. That can-teach-myself personality trait is what is going to cost you at this point in time. But it''s a temporary situation.. until enough "average" Rails coders get taught Rails through courses and whatnot, that''s when you can probably get yourself a cheap Rails coder. And do you really want a web developer with only 2 or 3 years of experience? I just think back to how inexperienced I was at the 2 to 3 year mark. If I were a hiring manager I couldn''t see myself wanting to hire that old inexperienced me to do any serious Rails development. Rails is advanced. You want someone who already knows at least one or two other programming languages besides just Ruby. -- Greg Donald http://destiney.com/ --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
Just a quick search on WorkingWithRails: http://workingwithrails.com/search?q=+Milwaukee&submit.x=227&submit.y=16&submit=Find Turns out there are only 4 people listed! Compare that to Washington DC with 10+ http://workingwithrails.com/search?q=+Washington+DC&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=Find Or even my own hometown of Charlottesville with 8 http://workingwithrails.com/search?q=+charlottesville&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=Find --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
If it''s a given that a Rails programmer is who you need, then it might be time to live outside your comfort zone a little. Ok, maybe a lot. Find a reputable freelancer -- and you can probably tell some of the people who''ve got the secret sauce by reading this list carefully -- and give them a small slice of work to do offsite. For an agreed- upon rate. When that slice (or iteration, or whatever you want to call it) completes, see if the results are better, worse, or about the same as if you had the person''s butt parked in a chair in your office. I''ll bet you will find that a good Rails dev working in his or her own environment will save you tons of time and money. Further, I believe you''ll probably get a superior end result if you choose carefully from a larger talent pool. It''s just the initial anxiety you have to overcome :) If you really want face time, I''m sure most freelancers would make a periodic business trip (at your expense) to attend meetings. So, if you can sell the "baby steps" approach to freelance development offsite, you certainly will improve your chances of finding someone. Additionally, you can pay a bit more because you have no cost burden for office, support staff, benefits, or other infrastructure. Just my $.02 On Nov 30, 2007, at 2:01 PM, Eric Pugh wrote:> > Just a quick search on WorkingWithRails: > > http://workingwithrails.com/search?q= > +Milwaukee&submit.x=227&submit.y=16&submit=Find > > Turns out there are only 4 people listed! Compare that to Washington > DC with 10+ > http://workingwithrails.com/search?q=+Washington > +DC&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=Find > > Or even my own hometown of Charlottesville with 8 > http://workingwithrails.com/search?q= > +charlottesville&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=Find--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby on Rails: Talk" group. To post to this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rubyonrails-talk-unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rubyonrails-talk?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---