I have been frustrated with J2EE technology just like any other developer who has worked in that technology for a long time. This made me learn about Rails and I was excited about RoR. Today I came across JBoss Seam framework and I am not able to contain my excitement. My passion for JEE development is back. It seems like it is better than RoR. I would like to hear differnt opinions about this issue. Please share your thoughts on why RoR or JBoss Seam is better than the other. TIA.
I think the answer most people will give you here is very simple: Seam == Java Rails == Ruby Ruby means much less code... less crap dealing with types when you don''t really care what type something is a lot of the time. b Bala Paranj wrote:> I have been frustrated with J2EE technology just like any other developer who has worked in that > technology for a long time. This made me learn about Rails and I was excited about RoR. Today I > came across JBoss Seam framework and I am not able to contain my excitement. > > My passion for JEE development is back. It seems like it is better than RoR. I would like to hear > differnt opinions about this issue. Please share your thoughts on why RoR or JBoss Seam is better > than the other. TIA. > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Bala Paranj wrote:> My passion for JEE development is back. > It seems like it is better than RoR.Then go back.> I would like to hear differnt opinions about > this issue. Please share your thoughts on why > RoR or JBoss Seam is better than the other.This is a list where folks come to get help learning RoR. There''s already too much unnecessary (i.e., RTFM) traffic here. Please take your philosophical inquiries elsewhere. Best regards, Bill
Hi Bala, thanks for the question but this is a Ruby language and Rails framework mailing list. I''m not interested in hearing and/or talking about a Java related technology here and I''m sure that the Java related communities feel the same about Ruby. This question maybe appropriate for a more general maling list that supports object oriented languages as a whole. -Conrad On 6/27/06, Ben Munat <bent@munat.com> wrote:> > I think the answer most people will give you here is very simple: > > Seam == Java > > Rails == Ruby > > Ruby means much less code... less crap dealing with types when you don''t > really care what type something is a lot of the > time. > > b > > Bala Paranj wrote: > > I have been frustrated with J2EE technology just like any other > developer who has worked in that > > technology for a long time. This made me learn about Rails and I was > excited about RoR. Today I > > came across JBoss Seam framework and I am not able to contain my > excitement. > > > > My passion for JEE development is back. It seems like it is better than > RoR. I would like to hear > > differnt opinions about this issue. Please share your thoughts on why > RoR or JBoss Seam is better > > than the other. TIA. > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060628/87a54f57/attachment.html
Hi Bala, I would recommend you do the following as an exercise: 1) complete a ruby tutorial (e.g. cookbook) or 2) do the same in the JBoss Seam 3) you decide I believe there are simply too many variables sometime to make decision that maybe out of your control especially in the corporate sector. Now, this may be much doable if you''re working for yourself and/or working for someone that''s looking to you for technical expertise. Then one can easily recommend these new technologies to their clients. Good luck, -Conrad On 6/27/06, Conrad Taylor <conradwt@gmail.com> wrote:> > Hi Bala, thanks for the question but this is a Ruby language and Rails > framework mailing list. I''m not interested in hearing and/or talking about > a Java related technology here and I''m sure that the Java related > communities feel the same about Ruby. This question maybe appropriate for a > more general maling list that supports object oriented languages as a whole. > > -Conrad > > > On 6/27/06, Ben Munat <bent@munat.com> wrote: > > > > I think the answer most people will give you here is very simple: > > > > Seam == Java > > > > Rails == Ruby > > > > Ruby means much less code... less crap dealing with types when you don''t > > really care what type something is a lot of the > > time. > > > > b > > > > Bala Paranj wrote: > > > I have been frustrated with J2EE technology just like any other > > developer who has worked in that > > > technology for a long time. This made me learn about Rails and I was > > excited about RoR. Today I > > > came across JBoss Seam framework and I am not able to contain my > > excitement. > > > > > > My passion for JEE development is back. It seems like it is better > > than RoR. I would like to hear > > > differnt opinions about this issue. Please share your thoughts on why > > RoR or JBoss Seam is better > > > than the other. TIA. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rails mailing list > > > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060628/374abea6/attachment.html
You ignorant dumb $#%@. Can''t you read the subject line? Who the &%$^ told you to flame? If you don''t have anything to add don''t reply. I want some feedback from people who have some knowledge. Not dumb a*s like you.> Then go back. > > > I would like to hear differnt opinions about > > this issue. Please share your thoughts on why > > RoR or JBoss Seam is better than the other. > > This is a list where folks come to get help learning RoR. There''s already > too much unnecessary (i.e., RTFM) traffic here. Please take your > philosophical inquiries elsewhere. > > Best regards, > Bill > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >http://www.ProblemSolvingSkill.net Hone your problem-solving skills
On 6/27/06, Bala Paranj <bparanj@yahoo.com> wrote:> I have been frustrated with J2EE technology just like any other developer who has worked in that > technology for a long time. This made me learn about Rails and I was excited about RoR. Today I > came across JBoss Seam framework and I am not able to contain my excitement.Your excitement is premature and may not last long. I know for a fact that Seam was designed as an R & D effort based on Gavin''s perceptions of the needs of web developers. I won''t cast a judgment on that myself, since he is a friend. I will say that he is far removed from being an application developer, years even. On the other hand you have Rails, which is made of framework bits and pieces that have been extracted from actual production applications, and which are known to be useful and *usable*. And those bits and pieces are designed and implemented almost entirely by actual application developers. That''s my 2 cents. And another: JSF sucks. Give me a good templating engine anyday. Cheers, Obie
While Bill''s response was very direct and could easily be construed as a bit rude, I''m pretty sure that your response, Bala, is the first message in this thread to qualify as a flame. -- -- Tom Mornini On Jun 27, 2006, at 7:28 PM, Bala Paranj wrote:> You ignorant dumb $#%@. Can''t you read the subject line? Who the &% > $^ told you to flame? If you > don''t have anything to add don''t reply. > > I want some feedback from people who have some knowledge. Not dumb > a*s like you. > > >> Then go back. >> >>> I would like to hear differnt opinions about >>> this issue. Please share your thoughts on why >>> RoR or JBoss Seam is better than the other. >> >> This is a list where folks come to get help learning RoR. There''s >> already >> too much unnecessary (i.e., RTFM) traffic here. Please take your >> philosophical inquiries elsewhere. >> >> Best regards, >> Bill >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rails mailing list >> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org >> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >> > > > http://www.ProblemSolvingSkill.net > Hone your problem-solving skills > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
A little bit of background -- I''ve used Java since ''96 and taught classes for Sun back in ''00-''02 timeframe. For quite a while, Java was my favorite general purpose language. However, I''ll admit I''ve been bit by the Ruby bug. I saw a demo of Seam by Gavin King back at the beginning of May. And I think the neat thing about it was the concept of continuations. That was very nifty. I still think that Ruby and rails is the way to go. I''d like to see continuations and I''ve toyed with the idea of adding a plugin to provide them, but I really think that I''ll be a lot more productive and have a lot more *fun* going the ruby and rails route than the J2EE route. YMMV, of course, Matt -- "... if you do follow your bliss you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. When you can see that, you begin to meet people who are in your field of bliss, and they open doors to you. I say, follow your bliss and don''t be afraid, and doors will open where you didn''t know they were going to be." -- Joseph Campbell
Thank you Obie and Matt. I was just looking to get some unbiased feedback from expert developers. Reading the threads about this topic at serverside forum made me feel that there was just too much marketing and noise. You guys rock!!! --- "Matthew K. Williams" <matt@harpstar.com> wrote:> A little bit of background -- I''ve used Java since ''96 and taught classes > for Sun back in ''00-''02 timeframe. For quite a while, Java was my > favorite general purpose language. However, I''ll admit I''ve been bit by > the Ruby bug. > > I saw a demo of Seam by Gavin King back at the beginning of May. And I > think the neat thing about it was the concept of continuations. That was > very nifty. > > I still think that Ruby and rails is the way to go. I''d like to see > continuations and I''ve toyed with the idea of adding a plugin to provide > them, but I really think that I''ll be a lot more productive and have a lot > more *fun* going the ruby and rails route than the J2EE route. > > YMMV, of course, > > Matt > -- > "... if you do follow your bliss you put yourself on a kind of > track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life > that you ought to be living is the one you are living. When you can > see that, you begin to meet people who are in your field of bliss, and > they open doors to you. I say, follow your bliss and don''t be afraid, > and doors will open where you didn''t know they were going to be." -- > Joseph Campbell > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >http://www.ProblemSolvingSkill.net Hone your problem-solving skills
Why are you wasting your time on this thread? Don''t you have enough to do ? I don''t really care who is right or wrong. I just want to know the TRUTH from *expert* developers. If you don''t fit that category. Just keep quiet. I will not put up with rude replies. --- Tom Mornini <tmornini@infomania.com> wrote:> While Bill''s response was very direct and > could easily be construed as a bit rude, I''m > pretty sure that your response, Bala, is the > first message in this thread to qualify as a > flame. > > -- -- Tom Mornini > > On Jun 27, 2006, at 7:28 PM, Bala Paranj wrote: > > > You ignorant dumb $#%@. Can''t you read the subject line? Who the &% > > $^ told you to flame? If you > > don''t have anything to add don''t reply. > > > > I want some feedback from people who have some knowledge. Not dumb > > a*s like you. > > > > > >> Then go back. > >> > >>> I would like to hear differnt opinions about > >>> this issue. Please share your thoughts on why > >>> RoR or JBoss Seam is better than the other. > >> > >> This is a list where folks come to get help learning RoR. There''s > >> already > >> too much unnecessary (i.e., RTFM) traffic here. Please take your > >> philosophical inquiries elsewhere. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Bill > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rails mailing list > >> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > >> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > >> > > > > > > http://www.ProblemSolvingSkill.net > > Hone your problem-solving skills > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >http://www.ProblemSolvingSkill.net Hone your problem-solving skills
This thread contains some of the most embarassing behavior I''ve ever seen in the Rails community. I have been pleased to be a part of a welcoming community such as this. It''s unfortunate that we jump all over people when they even mention another technology. If these kinds of questions aren''t wanted on the list, the community members should choose to ignore them, just like the Nigerian money scams that seem to have found their way into the list lately. Personally, I think it''s a good question. Where else would you ask this question? At TSS where everyone thinks Java rules and Ruby sucks? :) On 6/28/06, Bala Paranj <bparanj@yahoo.com> wrote:> > Why are you wasting your time on this thread? Don''t you have enough to do > ? I don''t really care > who is right or wrong. I just want to know the TRUTH from *expert* > developers. If you don''t fit > that category. Just keep quiet. I will not put up with rude replies. > > --- Tom Mornini <tmornini@infomania.com> wrote: > > > While Bill''s response was very direct and > > could easily be construed as a bit rude, I''m > > pretty sure that your response, Bala, is the > > first message in this thread to qualify as a > > flame. > > > > -- -- Tom Mornini > > > > On Jun 27, 2006, at 7:28 PM, Bala Paranj wrote: > > > > > You ignorant dumb $#%@. Can''t you read the subject line? Who the &% > > > $^ told you to flame? If you > > > don''t have anything to add don''t reply. > > > > > > I want some feedback from people who have some knowledge. Not dumb > > > a*s like you. > > > > > > > > >> Then go back. > > >> > > >>> I would like to hear differnt opinions about > > >>> this issue. Please share your thoughts on why > > >>> RoR or JBoss Seam is better than the other. > > >> > > >> This is a list where folks come to get help learning RoR. There''s > > >> already > > >> too much unnecessary (i.e., RTFM) traffic here. Please take your > > >> philosophical inquiries elsewhere. > > >> > > >> Best regards, > > >> Bill > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Rails mailing list > > >> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > > >> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > >> > > > > > > > > > http://www.ProblemSolvingSkill.net > > > Hone your problem-solving skills > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rails mailing list > > > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > > http://www.ProblemSolvingSkill.net > Hone your problem-solving skills > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060628/62bd52eb/attachment-0001.html
Bala Paranj wrote:> came across JBoss Seam framework and I am not able to contain my > excitement.I could contain my excitement easily once I saw "J2EE" :-)> My passion for JEE development is back. It seems like it is better than > RoR. I would like to hear > differnt opinions about this issue. Please share your thoughts on why > RoR or JBoss Seam is betterWell, RoR is already out there running a lot of applications. "Seam" looks to be in the R & D stages at this point, so its pretty hard to do a real world comparison. If I had to chew on JSF, Struts, etc. again I''d probably stop being a developer altogether. It was just too painfull and I don''t see how Seam is going to ease any *real* pain out of it. Just my 2 cents. --> Steve -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Bala, There is a difference between ROR and Seam, as seam wants to be a component based framework with its "componentized UI widgets". It is still based on the various complicated java api''s that most people have to spend months to learn (to extend them or to patch them). You have to make the choice yourself but for me its clear. The ROR-core has choosen to keep things simple, and that works for most of us (ror community), seam tries to approach that vision but is still build on all those awfull lib''s :) -- Abdur-Rahman Advany http://blog.railsdevelopment.com/
I''m afraid I stopped reading once I got to "Why Choose Seam?" followed by "EJB-based development". Not for me, thanks. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> That''s my 2 cents. And another: JSF sucks. Give me a good templating > engine anyday.Hello Obie, Have you taken a look at Facelets? Dennis Byrne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060628/4b46b4af/attachment.html
> Well, RoR is already out there running a lot of applications. "Seam" > looks to be in the R & D stages at this point, so its pretty hard to do > a real world comparison.Seam has been released. http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060613005142&newsLang=en Dennis Byrne -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060628/9d2bca0a/attachment-0001.html
Hi Advany, That was my first impression. It has ton of libs underneath, MyFaces, Facelets etc. The more libs it depends on more the chances of getting stuck due to a bug in one of the lib. It lacks Web Services, you need to use JBoss AS for that. The focus is on scalability. But not everyone needs that much scalability. Thanks, BP --- Abdur-Rahman Advany <rails@advany.com> wrote:> Bala, > > There is a difference between ROR and Seam, as seam wants to be a > component based framework with its "componentized UI widgets". It is > still based on the various complicated java api''s that most people have > to spend months to learn (to extend them or to patch them). You have to > make the choice yourself but for me its clear. The ROR-core has choosen > to keep things simple, and that works for most of us (ror community), > seam tries to approach that vision but is still build on all those > awfull lib''s :) > > -- > Abdur-Rahman Advany > http://blog.railsdevelopment.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >
On 6/28/06, Dennis_Byrne@ak.blm.gov <Dennis_Byrne@ak.blm.gov> wrote:> > > > That''s my 2 cents. And another: JSF sucks. Give me a good templating > > engine anyday. > > Hello Obie, > > Have you taken a look at Facelets? > > Dennis Byrne > > _______________________________________________Dennis, No I have not used Facelets. I don''t really do anything Java-related anymore. The experiment with Seam was out of curiousity only. There were a couple of things I liked about Seam, especially how well EJB3 seems to work now. On the other hand, the complexity factor with Seam is extremely high compared to Rails. Gavin and I paired up to write a small subset of a story-card management tool that I have written in Rails. It took us at least 2 hours of trial-and-error to get everything running and figure out how to send a plain list of divs to the browser. You see, creating a list of DIV tags is apparently not a common thing in the JSF world, so we had to dip into one of the standard JSP tag libraries and figure out how to use an iterator tag in conjunction with other Seamy stuff. Anyway, it''s hard to describe the frustration without going into a bunch of boring details. I didn''t walk away from the experience feeling any chance that Seam will make it big in the same way that Rails has. It is extremely complicated, because the guys writing it are not application developers themselves, so they have no idea the pain they are inflicting on the people out there (or in some cases they really don''t care about the pain, because it is the status quo). Obie
the real frustration to many people with j2ee is that they were using it in projects that didn?t need j2ee, I think rails is great but for now and some long time it won''t compare to j2ee simply because the 2 frameworks are for different problems... anyway I?m new to ruby and rails. On 6/28/06, Obie Fernandez <obiefernandez@gmail.com> wrote:> > On 6/28/06, Dennis_Byrne@ak.blm.gov <Dennis_Byrne@ak.blm.gov> wrote: > > > > > > > That''s my 2 cents. And another: JSF sucks. Give me a good templating > > > engine anyday. > > > > Hello Obie, > > > > Have you taken a look at Facelets? > > > > Dennis Byrne > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Dennis, > > No I have not used Facelets. I don''t really do anything Java-related > anymore. The experiment with Seam was out of curiousity only. > > There were a couple of things I liked about Seam, especially how well > EJB3 seems to work now. On the other hand, the complexity factor with > Seam is extremely high compared to Rails. > > Gavin and I paired up to write a small subset of a story-card > management tool that I have written in Rails. It took us at least 2 > hours of trial-and-error to get everything running and figure out how > to send a plain list of divs to the browser. You see, creating a list > of DIV tags is apparently not a common thing in the JSF world, so we > had to dip into one of the standard JSP tag libraries and figure out > how to use an iterator tag in conjunction with other Seamy stuff. > Anyway, it''s hard to describe the frustration without going into a > bunch of boring details. I didn''t walk away from the experience > feeling any chance that Seam will make it big in the same way that > Rails has. It is extremely complicated, because the guys writing it > are not application developers themselves, so they have no idea the > pain they are inflicting on the people out there (or in some cases > they really don''t care about the pain, because it is the status quo). > > Obie > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- David Casta?eda R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060629/49c80871/attachment.html