Hi, Not sure where to address this question ... but I guess this is a good start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developing Rails apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an idea of what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8 month project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my contract a little better. Anyway - if you can think of a better forum to ask this question lemme know ... Thanks Joerg -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
U$S 28/hour? Wow, that''s a lot for me (I live in argentina). In my country, I just earn U$S 8.33/hour, however, U$S 8.33/hour is very good money in Argentina. Rodrigo Dominguez ? Iplan Networks ???????????????Datos Personales rdominguez@iplan.com.ar ??????rorra@rorra.com.ar www.iplan.com.ar ?????????????www.rorra.com.ar 5031-6303 ????????????????????15-5695-6027 -----Mensaje original----- De: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org [mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org] En nombre de Joerg Diekmann Enviado el: Mi?rcoles, 21 de Junio de 2006 11:38 a.m. Para: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org Asunto: [Rails] Freelance Rate Hi, Not sure where to address this question ... but I guess this is a good start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developing Rails apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an idea of what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8 month project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my contract a little better. Anyway - if you can think of a better forum to ask this question lemme know ... Thanks Joerg -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
On 6/21/06, Rodrigo Dominguez <rails@rorra.com.ar> wrote:> U$S 28/hour? Wow, that''s a lot for me (I live in argentina). > In my country, I just earn U$S 8.33/hour, however, U$S 8.33/hour is > very good money in Argentina.Hmmm... Well standard rates around here (US Mountain) for web development runs around 65-85 per hour with lump discounts for larger projects. But it doesn''t hurt to take your client and such into consideration. I sometimes offer contractual discounts for preferred customers, etc (for instance I maintain my brother''s company website in exchange for him fixing my car--heehee)... :: shrug :: Where you are and what the rest of the market does is going to be a huge driver. -Curtis
Joerg, What is your experience in other web development projects? I am 22, have 3/4 years java experience, 1 year of .net, 3 years php and about a year rails experience. I live in the Netherlands (in U.S. loans are higher) and charge 50 euro to 90 euro/hour for most projects. But some of my friends that are developing full time (I am a parttime developer and fulltime student) are charging 90 euro to 150 euro/hour. Its really rare to find someone charging less then 45 euro/hour. I think most developers are charging much more than I am...(but might have more experience).. Abdul Joerg Diekmann wrote:> Hi, > > Not sure where to address this question ... but I guess this is a good > start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developing Rails > apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an idea of > what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been > charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I > could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8 month > project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my > contract a little better. > > Anyway - if you can think of a better forum to ask this question lemme > know ... > > Thanks > Joerg > >-- Abdur-Rahman Advany http://blog.railsdevelopment.com/
Joerg Diekmann wrote:> Hi, > > Not sure where to address this question ... but I guess this is a good > start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developing Rails > apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an idea of > what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been > charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I > could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8 month > project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my > contract a little better.Around Texas my former company was charging $75 per hour for I.T people and $120 an hour for web developers. Of course the web developers were only seeing maybe $40-$45 an hour out of that after the company tooks it''s cut. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Before everyone starts replying with, ''Well I charge $x...," please read this: http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.html#illegal Beyond the legal ramifications, discussions of pricing tend to be a waste of time. There are so many variables (experience, geography, clients, overhead, etc.) that other people''s numbers are most likely meaningless to you. Do some Googling and you''ll find plenty of articles on how to set your prices. Here''s one to get you started: http://www.blueflavor.com/ed/tips_tricks/pricing_a_project.php Good luck, -- Billy Mabray Smart Goat Web Design http://www.smartgoat.com
WOW!!!!! WOWOWOWOWOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well, I''m 24 years old, I have about 5 years of experience in development, I program in c, c++, perl, php, python, java, .net, asp, ruby, smalltalk, rails, etc. By this time, I''m working in a great communications company in Argentina (Iplan Networks), I''m a project leader, so I started to use ruby on rails for my projects (in Argentina, most people doesn''t know what''s ruby, and when you ask them about rails, they have no idea, so, it was hard to sell ruby on rails to the company :P), I just earn U$S 8.3/hour, but that''s a lot in Argentina. I would love to work as a freelance programmer for any of you, and I can even get cheaper (and really good) programmers for any project, they would be really happy to work for U$S 5-8/Hour. Rodrigo Dominguez ? Iplan Networks ???????????????Datos Personales rdominguez@iplan.com.ar ??????rorra@rorra.com.ar www.iplan.com.ar ?????????????www.rorra.com.ar 5031-6303 ????????????????????15-5695-6027 -----Mensaje original----- De: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org [mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org] En nombre de Abdur-Rahman Advany Enviado el: Mi?rcoles, 21 de Junio de 2006 12:16 p.m. Para: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org Asunto: Re: [Rails] Freelance Rate Joerg, What is your experience in other web development projects? I am 22, have 3/4 years java experience, 1 year of .net, 3 years php and about a year rails experience. I live in the Netherlands (in U.S. loans are higher) and charge 50 euro to 90 euro/hour for most projects. But some of my friends that are developing full time (I am a parttime developer and fulltime student) are charging 90 euro to 150 euro/hour. Its really rare to find someone charging less then 45 euro/hour. I think most developers are charging much more than I am...(but might have more experience).. Abdul Joerg Diekmann wrote:> Hi, > > Not sure where to address this question ... but I guess this is a good> start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developingRails> apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an ideaof> what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been > charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I > could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8month> project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my > contract a little better. > > Anyway - if you can think of a better forum to ask this question lemme> know ... > > Thanks > Joerg > >-- Abdur-Rahman Advany http://blog.railsdevelopment.com/ _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
On 6/21/06, Billy Mabray <smartgoat@gmail.com> wrote:> Before everyone starts replying with, ''Well I charge $x...," please read this: > > http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.html#illegalHmm...interesting. I did not have pricing relations with that mailing list... Regardless, another business consideration to be aware of is "undercutting" which is basically pricing your product lower than the area competition in order to get business. It''s sticky, and hairy, and it would be good to contact a lawyer if you have any questions. I, obviously, am not one. :) -Curtis
Yeah - it''s such a tricky business negotiating rates where everybody is happy. I have more than 10 years experience: five years in London, a few months in Beijing, and the rest in Cape Town. Curtis Spendlove wrote:> On 6/21/06, Billy Mabray <smartgoat@gmail.com> wrote: >> Before everyone starts replying with, ''Well I charge $x...," please read this: >> >> http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.html#illegal > > Hmm...interesting. I did not have pricing relations with that mailing > list... Regardless, another business consideration to be aware of is > "undercutting" which is basically pricing your product lower than the > area competition in order to get business. It''s sticky, and hairy, > and it would be good to contact a lawyer if you have any questions. > I, obviously, am not one. :) > > > -Curtis-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
You''ve got this flipped upside down- it''s not what the market has to offer, it''s what you do and how much that skillset is appreciated (more important than needed) by the potential client, how available it is in your area and how easily it can be shipped elsewhere in the client''s eyes. How do they view consultants- valuable assets, or $/hr _____s? And lastly, what''s your risk quota? Can you live without the contract/get another quickly? Your client will always be able to find someone cheaper (Hi Rodrigo!) and what other guys are charging really doesn''t impact you. Your peceived value is the driving factor. -Greg -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Well, outsourcing is still very complicated as the most difficult part of programming is agreeing upon the clients needs. But you can''t simply hire people for that rate (and asking them to give their full time), you need to pay more because you need to compensate for irregular flow of work. Abdul Rodrigo Dominguez wrote:> WOW!!!!! WOWOWOWOWOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Well, I''m 24 years old, I have about 5 years of experience in > development, I program in c, c++, perl, php, python, java, .net, asp, > ruby, smalltalk, rails, etc. > > By this time, I''m working in a great communications company in Argentina > (Iplan Networks), I''m a project leader, so I started to use ruby on > rails for my projects (in Argentina, most people doesn''t know what''s > ruby, and when you ask them about rails, they have no idea, so, it was > hard to sell ruby on rails to the company :P), I just earn U$S 8.3/hour, > but that''s a lot in Argentina. > > I would love to work as a freelance programmer for any of you, and I can > even get cheaper (and really good) programmers for any project, they > would be really happy to work for U$S 5-8/Hour. > > > Rodrigo Dominguez > > Iplan Networks Datos Personales > rdominguez@iplan.com.ar rorra@rorra.com.ar > www.iplan.com.ar www.rorra.com.ar > 5031-6303 15-5695-6027 > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org > [mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org] En nombre de Abdur-Rahman > Advany > Enviado el: Mi?rcoles, 21 de Junio de 2006 12:16 p.m. > Para: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > Asunto: Re: [Rails] Freelance Rate > > Joerg, > > What is your experience in other web development projects? I am 22, have > > 3/4 years java experience, 1 year of .net, 3 years php and about a year > rails experience. I live in the Netherlands (in U.S. loans are higher) > and charge 50 euro to 90 euro/hour for most projects. But some of my > friends that are developing full time (I am a parttime developer and > fulltime student) are charging 90 euro to 150 euro/hour. Its really rare > > to find someone charging less then 45 euro/hour. I think most developers > > are charging much more than I am...(but might have more experience).. > > Abdul > > Joerg Diekmann wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Not sure where to address this question ... but I guess this is a good >> > > >> start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developing >> > Rails > >> apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an idea >> > of > >> what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been >> charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I >> could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8 >> > month > >> project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my >> contract a little better. >> >> Anyway - if you can think of a better forum to ask this question lemme >> > > >> know ... >> >> Thanks >> Joerg >> >> >> > > >-- Abdur-Rahman Advany http://blog.railsdevelopment.com/
On 6/21/06, Greg <greg_dba@yahoo.com> wrote:> Your client will always be able to find someone cheaper > (Hi Rodrigo!) and what other guys are charging really doesn''t impact > you. Your peceived value is the driving factor.This is very applicable as well. Another aspect is a trust factor. Most customers are willing to pay a higher rate for high quality and good answers. It''s important to build trust with a client. Sometimes you need to eat a bit of time / resources in order to find that answer, but your clients will appreciate your advice and also not charging them for an answer of "not sure, but we''ll find out for you and get back". Trust is more important than money in a long-term business relationship. -Curtis
Absolute minimum should be $40/hr...a good developer can get up to $70/hr Good luck -----Original Message----- From: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org [mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org] On Behalf Of Joerg Diekmann Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 10:38 AM To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org Subject: [Rails] Freelance Rate Hi, Not sure where to address this question ... but I guess this is a good start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developing Rails apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an idea of what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8 month project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my contract a little better. Anyway - if you can think of a better forum to ask this question lemme know ... Thanks Joerg -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
There simplest answer to your question is how much value you are giving to your clients. Since experience, talent, and knowledge vary person to person, so will the rates. I will say this. Being well rounded and having good judgement combined with some decent business sense will go a long way towards making you more valuable. Good judgement is something that you either have or you don''t have, the rest just comes with experience and practice.
Give me a break, this is not price fixing at all. There''s a lot more that goes into price fixing than "Hey, I charge $10 / hr." Puhleeeeeeeeze. On 6/21/06, Curtis <cuspendlove@gmail.com> wrote:> > On 6/21/06, Billy Mabray <smartgoat@gmail.com> wrote: > > Before everyone starts replying with, ''Well I charge $x...," please read > this: > > > > http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.html#illegal > > Hmm...interesting. I did not have pricing relations with that mailing > list... Regardless, another business consideration to be aware of is > "undercutting" which is basically pricing your product lower than the > area competition in order to get business. It''s sticky, and hairy, > and it would be good to contact a lawyer if you have any questions. > I, obviously, am not one. :) > > > -Curtis > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060625/7a630ceb/attachment.html
Tell that to British Airways ;) On 25 Jun 2006, at 22:02, Ted Korolchuk wrote:> Give me a break, this is not price fixing at all. There''s a lot > more that goes into price fixing than "Hey, I charge $10 / hr." > > Puhleeeeeeeeze. >
If discussing pricing is a crime then Janet Ruhl of realrates.com must be in prison already. It is total BS. --- Ted Korolchuk <ted.korolchuk@gmail.com> wrote:> Give me a break, this is not price fixing at all. There''s a lot more that > goes into price fixing than "Hey, I charge $10 / hr." > > Puhleeeeeeeeze. > > > On 6/21/06, Curtis <cuspendlove@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 6/21/06, Billy Mabray <smartgoat@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Before everyone starts replying with, ''Well I charge $x...," please read > > this: > > > > > > http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.html#illegal > > > > Hmm...interesting. I did not have pricing relations with that mailing > > list... Regardless, another business consideration to be aware of is > > "undercutting" which is basically pricing your product lower than the > > area competition in order to get business. It''s sticky, and hairy, > > and it would be good to contact a lawyer if you have any questions. > > I, obviously, am not one. :) > > > > > > -Curtis > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >http://www.ProblemSolvingSkill.net Hone your problem-solving skills
On 6/25/06, Bala Paranj <bparanj@yahoo.com> wrote:> If discussing pricing is a crime then Janet Ruhl of realrates.com must be in prison already. It is > total BS.A little research goes a long way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing http://apa.pmai.org/readall/antitrustlaw.html http://webdesign-l.com/policies/#subectMatter To save people a little bit of reading time: Anonymous, third-party pricing surveys are legal. Discussions among competitors about how much they should charge are not. At least, that''s the way it is in the US. Laws in your country may vary. Again I''ll say, legal or not, such discussions are a waste of time. There are too many variables that go into pricing. Whatever your situation is that causes you to charge what you do probably does not apply to me, and vice versa. Good luck, -- Billy Mabray Smart Goat Web Design http://www.smartgoat.com
It amazes me that people working on web sites, etc that are targeted at the entire internet restrict their thinking to finding work locally. You can find clients from all over the world if you market yourself well (there are plenty of examples of very good designers/coders doing this). I recently hired a company in Spain to perform some branding work, but I am in Australia. If they do a good job they will get more work. The world is your oyster. Keep a blog, publish your work. If you are good people will approach you. You can charge what the market will bear *in another country*. Cheers and have fun! Andrew Rodrigo Dominguez wrote:> WOW!!!!! WOWOWOWOWOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Well, I''m 24 years old, I have about 5 years of experience in > development, I program in c, c++, perl, php, python, java, .net, asp, > ruby, smalltalk, rails, etc. > > By this time, I''m working in a great communications company in Argentina > (Iplan Networks), I''m a project leader, so I started to use ruby on > rails for my projects (in Argentina, most people doesn''t know what''s > ruby, and when you ask them about rails, they have no idea, so, it was > hard to sell ruby on rails to the company :P), I just earn U$S 8.3/hour, > but that''s a lot in Argentina. > > I would love to work as a freelance programmer for any of you, and I can > even get cheaper (and really good) programmers for any project, they > would be really happy to work for U$S 5-8/Hour. > > > Rodrigo Dominguez > ? > Iplan Networks ???????????????Datos Personales > rdominguez@iplan.com.ar ??????rorra@rorra.com.ar > www.iplan.com.ar ?????????????www.rorra.com.ar > 5031-6303 ????????????????????15-5695-6027 > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org > [mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org] En nombre de Abdur-Rahman > Advany > Enviado el: Mi?rcoles, 21 de Junio de 2006 12:16 p.m. > Para: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > Asunto: Re: [Rails] Freelance Rate > > Joerg, > > What is your experience in other web development projects? I am 22, have > > 3/4 years java experience, 1 year of .net, 3 years php and about a year > rails experience. I live in the Netherlands (in U.S. loans are higher) > and charge 50 euro to 90 euro/hour for most projects. But some of my > friends that are developing full time (I am a parttime developer and > fulltime student) are charging 90 euro to 150 euro/hour. Its really rare > > to find someone charging less then 45 euro/hour. I think most developers > > are charging much more than I am...(but might have more experience).. > > Abdul > > Joerg Diekmann wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Not sure where to address this question ... but I guess this is a good > >> start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developing > Rails >> apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an idea > of >> what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been >> charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I >> could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8 > month >> project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my >> contract a little better. >> >> Anyway - if you can think of a better forum to ask this question lemme > >> know ... >> >> Thanks >> Joerg >> >> > > > -- > Abdur-Rahman Advany > http://blog.railsdevelopment.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
I''m sorry to be confrontational, but I really have to chime in here because what you are saying is untrue. Price fixing requires agreements between competitors. These agreements can be unspoken, for sure, but there has to be some kind of evidence that an agreement exists. The cops are not going to kick your door in for asking a mailing list what the going rate seems to be for Rails consulting. http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title7/ant00007.htm There are 3 elements here, the first is an actual agreement and it needs to be made with intent to restrain trade (or actually to have that effect). "In effect, the conspiracy must comprise an agreement, understanding or meeting of the minds between at least two competitors or potential competitors, for the purpose or with the effect of unreasonably restraining trade." Does any of this discussion here seem to be made with that intent? Of course not... Certainly it won''t have the restraining effect, the consulting world is far too large and this list is much too small. It''s a mailing list and a great question to ask. Sorry, Perry Mason, but the DOJ is not going to kick your door in. And if you think the discussions are a waste of time, that''s fine, you don''t have to participate. I think they are potentially very helpful to someone just hanging out his own shingle. It''s tempting to sell yourself short if you are new to consulting. I just knew my JD would come in handy sometime. Ted PS- I charge between $50 to $100 / hr depending on the nature of the project. Yeah, it''s a wide range, but different circumstances call for different rates. I think you shouldn''t have any trouble getting $40+ / hr at any level, but at the same time there are a lot of guys in other countries that will do the work for way less. You can either see this as competition or a great way to outsource business. On 6/25/06, Billy Mabray <smartgoat@gmail.com> wrote:> > On 6/25/06, Bala Paranj <bparanj@yahoo.com> wrote: > > If discussing pricing is a crime then Janet Ruhl of realrates.com must > be in prison already. It is > > total BS. > > A little research goes a long way: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing > http://apa.pmai.org/readall/antitrustlaw.html > http://webdesign-l.com/policies/#subectMatter > > To save people a little bit of reading time: Anonymous, third-party > pricing surveys are legal. Discussions among competitors about how > much they should charge are not. At least, that''s the way it is in the > US. Laws in your country may vary. > > Again I''ll say, legal or not, such discussions are a waste of time. > There are too many variables that go into pricing. Whatever your > situation is that causes you to charge what you do probably does not > apply to me, and vice versa. > > Good luck, > -- > Billy Mabray > Smart Goat Web Design > http://www.smartgoat.com > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060626/8a270cf6/attachment.html
You have a JD?!?! If may ask, why are you hanging around with us IT folks? Do you teach law? Ted Korolchuk wrote:> I''m sorry to be confrontational, but I really have to chime in here > because what you are saying is untrue. > > Price fixing requires agreements between competitors. These > agreements can be unspoken, for sure, but there has to be some kind of > evidence that an agreement exists. The cops are not going to kick > your door in for asking a mailing list what the going rate seems to be > for Rails consulting. > > http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title7/ant00007.htm > <http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title7/ant00007.htm> > > There are 3 elements here, the first is an actual agreement and it > needs to be made with intent to restrain trade (or actually to have > that effect). > > "In effect, the conspiracy must comprise an agreement, understanding > or meeting of the minds between at least two competitors or potential > competitors, for the purpose or with the effect of unreasonably > restraining trade." Does any of this discussion here seem to be made > with that intent? Of course not... Certainly it won''t have the > restraining effect, the consulting world is far too large and this > list is much too small. It''s a mailing list and a great question to > ask. Sorry, Perry Mason, but the DOJ is not going to kick your door in. > > And if you think the discussions are a waste of time, that''s fine, you > don''t have to participate. I think they are potentially very helpful > to someone just hanging out his own shingle. It''s tempting to sell > yourself short if you are new to consulting. > > I just knew my JD would come in handy sometime. > > Ted > > PS- I charge between $50 to $100 / hr depending on the nature of the > project. Yeah, it''s a wide range, but different circumstances call > for different rates. I think you shouldn''t have any trouble getting > $40+ / hr at any level, but at the same time there are a lot of guys > in other countries that will do the work for way less. You can either > see this as competition or a great way to outsource business. > > On 6/25/06, *Billy Mabray* <smartgoat@gmail.com > <mailto:smartgoat@gmail.com> > wrote: > > On 6/25/06, Bala Paranj < bparanj@yahoo.com > <mailto:bparanj@yahoo.com>> wrote: > > If discussing pricing is a crime then Janet Ruhl of > realrates.com <http://realrates.com/> must be in prison already. > It is > > total BS. > > A little research goes a long way: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing> > http://apa.pmai.org/readall/antitrustlaw.html > http://webdesign-l.com/policies/#subectMatter > > To save people a little bit of reading time: Anonymous, third-party > pricing surveys are legal. Discussions among competitors about how > much they should charge are not. At least, that''s the way it is in > the > US. Laws in your country may vary. > > Again I''ll say, legal or not, such discussions are a waste of time. > There are too many variables that go into pricing. Whatever your > situation is that causes you to charge what you do probably does not > apply to me, and vice versa. > > Good luck, > -- > Billy Mabray > Smart Goat Web Design > http://www.smartgoat.com <http://www.smartgoat.com/> > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org <mailto:Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org> > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >
Have to agree with Ted on this one, chatting about rates hardly constitutes price fixing, but Billy did provide you a wonderful idea- an anonymous pricing survey. Why don''t you post your own survey, in your community, on a local or popular job board? Or, if you want to walk on the sneaky side, post your own "job", see who nibbles, what skills they offer and what volume of response you receive and the possibility of using them to outsource. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
On 6/26/06, Ted Korolchuk <ted.korolchuk@gmail.com> wrote:> http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title7/ant00007.htmWhile seeing the actual law is useful, it''s still open to interpretation. JD or not, I hope you won''t mind if I don''t take your advice over *every other source* I''ve found on this: http://www.morebusiness.com/running_your_business/legal/d935705578.brc http://www.limov.com/journal/?jm=1&e=1061 That second link is particularly interesting because the person has done a lot of research, including talking to an attorney.> And if you think the discussions are a waste of time, that''s fine, you don''t > have to participate. I think they are potentially very helpful to someone > just hanging out his own shingle. It''s tempting to sell yourself short if > you are new to consulting.Agreed, but discussing *how* you price yourself would be much more useful. What criteria you use to set your prices, when you offer discounts, what overhead costs to plan for. Talking actual dollar amounts is just silly because the market varies too much. Of course, this whole thing is highly off-topic for this list. Now if someone would write a quick pricing calculator and/or survey app... -- Billy Mabray Smart Goat Web Design http://www.smartgoat.com
Law isn''t fun. IT is really what I love to do, so I decided to do it. Turned down some good $ in law jobs, but it''s good money for 80 hours a week of really dry paper-pushing. That''s not me! I''d seriously jump off a cliff. On 6/26/06, Jason Edgecombe <jedgecombe@carolina.rr.com> wrote:> > You have a JD?!?! > > If may ask, why are you hanging around with us IT folks? > > Do you teach law? > > Ted Korolchuk wrote: > > I''m sorry to be confrontational, but I really have to chime in here > > because what you are saying is untrue. > > > > Price fixing requires agreements between competitors. These > > agreements can be unspoken, for sure, but there has to be some kind of > > evidence that an agreement exists. The cops are not going to kick > > your door in for asking a mailing list what the going rate seems to be > > for Rails consulting. > > > > > http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title7/ant00007.htm > > < > http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title7/ant00007.htm > > > > > > There are 3 elements here, the first is an actual agreement and it > > needs to be made with intent to restrain trade (or actually to have > > that effect). > > > > "In effect, the conspiracy must comprise an agreement, understanding > > or meeting of the minds between at least two competitors or potential > > competitors, for the purpose or with the effect of unreasonably > > restraining trade." Does any of this discussion here seem to be made > > with that intent? Of course not... Certainly it won''t have the > > restraining effect, the consulting world is far too large and this > > list is much too small. It''s a mailing list and a great question to > > ask. Sorry, Perry Mason, but the DOJ is not going to kick your door in. > > > > And if you think the discussions are a waste of time, that''s fine, you > > don''t have to participate. I think they are potentially very helpful > > to someone just hanging out his own shingle. It''s tempting to sell > > yourself short if you are new to consulting. > > > > I just knew my JD would come in handy sometime. > > > > Ted > > > > PS- I charge between $50 to $100 / hr depending on the nature of the > > project. Yeah, it''s a wide range, but different circumstances call > > for different rates. I think you shouldn''t have any trouble getting > > $40+ / hr at any level, but at the same time there are a lot of guys > > in other countries that will do the work for way less. You can either > > see this as competition or a great way to outsource business. > > > > On 6/25/06, *Billy Mabray* <smartgoat@gmail.com > > <mailto:smartgoat@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > On 6/25/06, Bala Paranj < bparanj@yahoo.com > > <mailto:bparanj@yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > If discussing pricing is a crime then Janet Ruhl of > > realrates.com <http://realrates.com/> must be in prison already. > > It is > > > total BS. > > > > A little research goes a long way: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing> > > http://apa.pmai.org/readall/antitrustlaw.html > > http://webdesign-l.com/policies/#subectMatter > > > > To save people a little bit of reading time: Anonymous, third-party > > pricing surveys are legal. Discussions among competitors about how > > much they should charge are not. At least, that''s the way it is in > > the > > US. Laws in your country may vary. > > > > Again I''ll say, legal or not, such discussions are a waste of time. > > There are too many variables that go into pricing. Whatever your > > situation is that causes you to charge what you do probably does not > > apply to me, and vice versa. > > > > Good luck, > > -- > > Billy Mabray > > Smart Goat Web Design > > http://www.smartgoat.com <http://www.smartgoat.com/> > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org <mailto:Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org> > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060626/953d37b8/attachment.html
Joerg, There is no "I charge xx amount" answer for this question that will make you successful or fall within some pre-concieved norm. The question shouldn''t be "How much am I worth?" It should be instead, "How much is what I''m doing for my client worth?" In some cases your client will be a small business that only needs a very basic web application. The more you understand their bottom line and get a feel for what role this application will play in their operation the easier you can see how it might fit into their budget. Similary, you may be approached by a much larger company asking for something more complex where you would have to potentially hire contracted services from a local graphic designer and potentially another programmer to help you out. Those factors will figure in first and foremost. Then you can evaluate, in the same ways as the small business, what the application is worth to the company. So...don''t say, "I''m Joerg and I cost 65 dollars per hour." You''ll want to say, "I''m Joerg. I can offer you a full solution that will impact your business. This project will cost ... to complete. That is based on the level of complexity of the project, my hourly rate of XX dollars per hour, and an initial estimate of time to complete." If you go this route just be very certain you''re working for time & materials and that you''ve made it clear your initial price was an estimate based on full cooperation, a set scope of work, and current external project requirements (like contracting graphic design, etc.). -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Ted Korolchuk wrote:> Law isn''t fun. > > IT is really what I love to do, so I decided to do it. Turned down some > good $ in law jobs, but it''s good money for 80 hours a week of really > dry > paper-pushing. That''s not me! I''d seriously jump off a cliff.Law isn''t fun? Now that''s flame bait! I''m a lawyer, and I find my job very interesting. Clients come up with some interesting situations for me to work on. On the other hand, I program for fun but I can imagine a life in IT that is dreary. I suppose it depends upon one''s circumstances. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
I wonder what DHH''s freelance rate is... BTW, I don''t find this discussion useless. And it''d be next to impossible to price fix with the vast amount of freelancers out there, world-wide. Joe -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Sorry, but this topic frequently makes my blood pressure rise just a little bit. Seems to come up every so often on many different lists.> A little research goes a long way: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing > http://apa.pmai.org/readall/antitrustlaw.html > http://webdesign-l.com/policies/#subectMatterHmm. The Wikipedia article (not my idea of a great source) pretty clearly indicates that this discussion wouldn''t be price fixing. It''s footnotes are pathetic - they rely heavily on the "Art Publishers Association" materials, and those contain virtually nothing outside of speculation and guesswork. The APA article isn''t worth the paper it''s printed on; it''s speculation and guesswork, with the legal heft of my cat''s breakfast. The third article doesn''t seem to mention price fixing at all. Someone else brought up the HTML Writer''s Guild policy. That one makes my cat''s breakfast look like a professionally prepared legal document; it''s precisely the sort of pseudo-legal drivel that should make 100% of its readers assume that the Guild doesn''t have the faintest idea what they''re talking about. A quote from the article: "According to either Marshall Kragen or Lewis Rose (both practicing lawyers), several brokers in DC were successfully prosecuted for simply discussing an increase of fees at a dinner meeting." The National Enquirer would be embarrassed to print something sourced like that. Better to say "My brother-in-law''s wife''s daughter is a lawyer, and she says it''s legal, except in Georgia." After you''ve finished rolling around the floor laughing your guts out, feel free to ignore the rest of the article. There''s no information there at all. Look for actual, honest-to-Ghod legal work on this one. Most of the stuff you find Googling is worse than useless. - James Moore
Screw talking about it, let''s go all the way! Let''s price fix I say $100 an hour or no Rails work. If we all agree to this it will work but if any one of you undercuts us, there will be hell to pay. Who''s with me?!? United we stand. Pricefixing is nothing to worry about, we couldn''t pull it off even if we wanted to... On 6/26/06, James Moore <banshee@banshee.com> wrote:> Sorry, but this topic frequently makes my blood pressure rise just a little > bit. Seems to come up every so often on many different lists. > > > A little research goes a long way: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing > > http://apa.pmai.org/readall/antitrustlaw.html > > http://webdesign-l.com/policies/#subectMatter > > Hmm. > > The Wikipedia article (not my idea of a great source) pretty clearly > indicates that this discussion wouldn''t be price fixing. It''s footnotes are > pathetic - they rely heavily on the "Art Publishers Association" materials, > and those contain virtually nothing outside of speculation and guesswork. > > The APA article isn''t worth the paper it''s printed on; it''s speculation and > guesswork, with the legal heft of my cat''s breakfast. > > The third article doesn''t seem to mention price fixing at all. > > Someone else brought up the HTML Writer''s Guild policy. That one makes my > cat''s breakfast look like a professionally prepared legal document; it''s > precisely the sort of pseudo-legal drivel that should make 100% of its > readers assume that the Guild doesn''t have the faintest idea what they''re > talking about. A quote from the article: > > "According to either Marshall Kragen or Lewis Rose (both practicing > lawyers), several brokers in DC were successfully prosecuted for simply > discussing an increase of fees at a dinner meeting." > > The National Enquirer would be embarrassed to print something sourced like > that. Better to say "My brother-in-law''s wife''s daughter is a lawyer, and > she says it''s legal, except in Georgia." After you''ve finished rolling > around the floor laughing your guts out, feel free to ignore the rest of the > article. There''s no information there at all. > > Look for actual, honest-to-Ghod legal work on this one. Most of the stuff > you find Googling is worse than useless. > > - James Moore > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >
>The question shouldn''t be "How much am I worth?" It should be instead, >"How much is what I''m doing for my client worth?"Exactly. Where is the budget coming from, what are their goals and how do they relate to those of the company? Is your project an experiment? A threat to another team? Smaller companies will expect more, the money is more personal. Larger companies won''t want to tell you much, though they cut checks much easier and generally have a framework for consultants in place. Other helpful tidbits: -Give yourself some wiggle room, "Based on the initial requirements, similar projects in the past were in the range of x to y". You can always change the game later, ie when the scope and requirements change. Just "x" limits you a bit, especially if their req has "y" in the rate col and x>y. -Always introduce yourself to accounting or whoever will cut your check. If you need to invoice, ask them what format they prefer, timing etc. If some day there are seven invoices and only money to pay three, the nice guy usually gets the check. -Admins can make or break you, they often have better relationships with management than directors/managers/project leads etc. Never mistake their title for their role. -Greg -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Tim Case wrote:> Screw talking about it, let''s go all the way! > > Let''s price fix > > I say $100 an hour or no Rails work. If we all agree to this it will > work but if any one of you undercuts us, there will be hell to pay. > > Who''s with me?!? > > United we stand. > > Pricefixing is nothing to worry about, we couldn''t pull it off even if > we wanted to...I will do Rails work for $99/hour. Joe -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Ted Korolchuk''s post was really useful - thanks!> While seeing the actual law is useful, it''s still open to > interpretation. JD or not, I hope you won''t mind if I don''t take your > advice over *every other source* I''ve found on this:You''re comparing a really, _really_ good source to a bunch of random stuff you found in Google, though. It''s not the actual text of the law, it''s what the United States Department of Justice thinks the law says. Thousands of random Google junk links versus the DOJ? I think we can all sleep soundly, knowing that any legal documents served to us on this one will be delived by flying saucers. Found another interesting one while looking for the airline price fixing info: http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/confbd4.htm "If the industry structure is not conducive to coordination, perhaps because entry is easy or because a firm could cut prices in secret and steal business from rivals, a court must recognize that it would be irrational for the firms to engage in the forbidden process which the courts term an agreement, risking prosecution with no hope of gaining market power.(16)" - James Moore
On Jun 26, 2006, at 9:06 PM, Greg Dba wrote:> -Always introduce yourself to accounting or whoever will cut your > check. > If you need to invoice, ask them what format they prefer, timing > etc. If > some day there are seven invoices and only money to pay three, the > nice > guy usually gets the check.What? Were you born yesterday? Nice guys get their check *last*. The outfit that bitches the *loudest* gets paid first. I have never witnessed the converse happening (anecdotes * n = data).> -Admins can make or break you, they often have better relationships > with > management than directors/managers/project leads etc. Never mistake > their title for their role.Okay, so you aren''t a total newbie. :-) cr
Chuck Remes wrote:> On Jun 26, 2006, at 9:06 PM, Greg Dba wrote: > >> -Always introduce yourself to accounting or whoever will cut your >> check. >> If you need to invoice, ask them what format they prefer, timing >> etc. If >> some day there are seven invoices and only money to pay three, the >> nice >> guy usually gets the check. > > What? Were you born yesterday? Nice guys get their check *last*. The > outfit that bitches the *loudest* gets paid first. I have never > witnessed the converse happening (anecdotes * n = data). > >> -Admins can make or break you, they often have better relationships >> with >> management than directors/managers/project leads etc. Never mistake >> their title for their role. > > Okay, so you aren''t a total newbie. :-) > > crSorry Charly- you must have been one of the chumps that didn''t get paid- heh heh. Nice doesn''t mean pushover. It''s common sense- if there isn''t enough money to go around, all else being equal, the person they like gets paid first. If they don''t know you from your contractor number, well, good luck. I''ve gotten paid twice this way when others got stiffed. Granted, that was in days past, when lots more companies went belly up, but a pleasant conversation and a pound of Brasilian coffee can go a long way. And if you do botch your invoice- your first check may hang for a while, simply on procedural levels. Now, if it''s no-pay instead of slow-pay, then I agree, no amount of sweetalking is gonna help ya there, find the biggest stick you can and swing wildly... -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Good idea! But...the rate is too low. Hell, as long as we''re going to corner the market... :-) -- -- Tom Mornini On Jun 26, 2006, at 7:01 PM, Tim Case wrote:> Screw talking about it, let''s go all the way! > > Let''s price fix > > I say $100 an hour or no Rails work. If we all agree to this it will > work but if any one of you undercuts us, there will be hell to pay. > > Who''s with me?!? > > United we stand. > > Pricefixing is nothing to worry about, we couldn''t pull it off even if > we wanted to... > > On 6/26/06, James Moore <banshee@banshee.com> wrote: >> Sorry, but this topic frequently makes my blood pressure rise just >> a little >> bit. Seems to come up every so often on many different lists. >> >> > A little research goes a long way: >> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing >> > http://apa.pmai.org/readall/antitrustlaw.html >> > http://webdesign-l.com/policies/#subectMatter >> >> Hmm. >> >> The Wikipedia article (not my idea of a great source) pretty clearly >> indicates that this discussion wouldn''t be price fixing. It''s >> footnotes are >> pathetic - they rely heavily on the "Art Publishers Association" >> materials, >> and those contain virtually nothing outside of speculation and >> guesswork. >> >> The APA article isn''t worth the paper it''s printed on; it''s >> speculation and >> guesswork, with the legal heft of my cat''s breakfast. >> >> The third article doesn''t seem to mention price fixing at all. >> >> Someone else brought up the HTML Writer''s Guild policy. That one >> makes my >> cat''s breakfast look like a professionally prepared legal >> document; it''s >> precisely the sort of pseudo-legal drivel that should make 100% of >> its >> readers assume that the Guild doesn''t have the faintest idea what >> they''re >> talking about. A quote from the article: >> >> "According to either Marshall Kragen or Lewis Rose (both practicing >> lawyers), several brokers in DC were successfully prosecuted for >> simply >> discussing an increase of fees at a dinner meeting." >> >> The National Enquirer would be embarrassed to print something >> sourced like >> that. Better to say "My brother-in-law''s wife''s daughter is a >> lawyer, and >> she says it''s legal, except in Georgia." After you''ve finished >> rolling >> around the floor laughing your guts out, feel free to ignore the >> rest of the >> article. There''s no information there at all. >> >> Look for actual, honest-to-Ghod legal work on this one. Most of >> the stuff >> you find Googling is worse than useless. >> >> - James Moore >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rails mailing list >> Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org >> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >> > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
On Jun 26, 2006, at 9:41 AM, Billy Mabray wrote:> On 6/26/06, Ted Korolchuk <ted.korolchuk@gmail.com> wrote: > >> And if you think the discussions are a waste of time, that''s fine, >> you don''t >> have to participate. I think they are potentially very helpful to >> someone >> just hanging out his own shingle. It''s tempting to sell yourself >> short if >> you are new to consulting. > > Agreed, but discussing *how* you price yourself would be much more > useful. What criteria you use to set your prices, when you offer > discounts, what overhead costs to plan for. Talking actual dollar > amounts is just silly because the market varies too much.All of these subjects for discussion (criteria, discounts, overhead) are all absolutely worthless to discuss in a market economy, as the only logical means for setting pricing is to set your pricing in a way that optimizes your income, i.e. charge as much as you possibly can. -- -- Tom Mornini
>From my experience I have found this to be true.30-50/hr - Entry level contractor with little to no client base, or doesn''t realize that they can charge more 50-75/hr - Have enough clients to turn down a job or two, but is still very eager to expand and grow 75-100/hr - Sustained client base, their service is in demand, and they are able to charge a premium. 100-150/hr - Expert consulting, which is beginning to separate themselves from other competitors with specialized experience, and a client list of references to ensure success, and build instant trust before the contract is landed. 150-250/hr - This is the league of lawyers and high priced Chartered Accountants. You have an extensive client list, very high caliber of experience, and you offer a solution or services which a) can''t be done by anyone else, b) you are at the level of offering a team based solution, mostly in the case of a firm, c) are able to do as much productivity wise as 3x the 50/hr contractors. 250+ - Haven''t yet seen anyone at this level yet ;) If there is someone out there that charges this, would be nice to know what separates you from the rest. Nathaniel. On 6/26/06 11:16 PM, "Tom Mornini" <tmornini@infomania.com> wrote:> On Jun 26, 2006, at 9:41 AM, Billy Mabray wrote: > >> On 6/26/06, Ted Korolchuk <ted.korolchuk@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> And if you think the discussions are a waste of time, that''s fine, >>> you don''t >>> have to participate. I think they are potentially very helpful to >>> someone >>> just hanging out his own shingle. It''s tempting to sell yourself >>> short if >>> you are new to consulting. >> >> Agreed, but discussing *how* you price yourself would be much more >> useful. What criteria you use to set your prices, when you offer >> discounts, what overhead costs to plan for. Talking actual dollar >> amounts is just silly because the market varies too much. > > All of these subjects for discussion (criteria, discounts, overhead) > are all absolutely worthless to discuss in a market economy, as the > only logical means for setting pricing is to set your pricing in a > way that optimizes your income, i.e. charge as much as you possibly > can.--
2006/6/21, Joerg Diekmann <joergd@pobox.com>:> Not sure where to address this question ... but I guess this is a good > start. I am a freelance Rails developer - and have been developing Rails > apps professionally for about a year now. I just want to get an idea of > what you other freelancers charge yourselves out at. I have been > charging the equivalent of about $28/hour, but get a sense that I > could/should charge a whole lot more. I am about to embark on an 8 month > project - and need to get an idea whether I need to negotiate my > contract a little better.Just found this: http://www.blueflavor.com/ed/tips_tricks/pricing_a_project.php Bye ! -- Fran?ois Beausoleil http://blog.teksol.info/
Nathaniel Brown wrote:> 250+ - Haven''t yet seen anyone at this level yet ;) If there is someone > out > there that charges this, would be nice to know what separates you from > the > rest.I''ve heard of law FIRMS charging as much as $500/hour. Joe -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> I''ve heard of law FIRMS charging as much as $500/hour. > > JoeWe have a lawyer that charges $700 per hour and he''s been worth every cent. I hear David Boies and Larry Tribe get over $1000 per hour. In the UK it''s more per hour than the US but they bill fewer hours per project it seems. Good work if you can get it. Pretty sure it''s not boring either. -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
On 6/26/06, Tim Case <tcrails1@gmail.com> wrote:> Screw talking about it, let''s go all the way! > > Let''s price fix > > I say $100 an hour or no Rails work."CakePHP: The hottest (and cheapest) web framework of 2006."
Bill wrote:>> I''ve heard of law FIRMS charging as much as $500/hour. >> >> Joe > > We have a lawyer that charges $700 per hour and he''s been worth every > cent. I hear David Boies and Larry Tribe get over $1000 per hour. In > the UK it''s more per hour than the US but they bill fewer hours per > project it seems. > > Good work if you can get it. Pretty sure it''s not boring either.It''s the paralegals, interns, and non-partners that do the boring work. ;P Joe -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
On Tue, Jun 27, 2006 at 06:50:04PM -0700, Peter Michaux wrote:> On 6/26/06, Tim Case <tcrails1@gmail.com> wrote: > >Screw talking about it, let''s go all the way! > > > >Let''s price fix > > > >I say $100 an hour or no Rails work. > > "CakePHP: The hottest (and cheapest) web framework of 2006."I think you just demonstrated (or perhaps missed) Tim''s point. - Matt -- "Once one has achieved full endarkenment, one is happy to have an entirely nonfunctional computer" -- Steve VanDevender, ASR
As a practical matter, price fixing is pretty darn legal everywhere outside the US. There was a famous case of the computer memory manufacturers price fixing. They met regularly outside the US and had no trouble at all until they stupidly had a meeting in Hawaii. The FBI got ''em. But it was a big deal for the FBI and there''s no way they have the time and energy to track down piddling contractors. Think how often the FBI goes after plumbers for overcharging. Bubkis. Software people are angels compared to plumbers. Warren Seltzer -----Original Message----- From: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org [mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org] On Behalf Of James Moore Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 5:16 AM To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org Subject: RE: [Rails] Freelance Rate Ted Korolchuk''s post was really useful - thanks!> While seeing the actual law is useful, it''s still open to > interpretation. JD or not, I hope you won''t mind if I don''t take your > advice over *every other source* I''ve found on this:You''re comparing a really, _really_ good source to a bunch of random stuff you found in Google, though. It''s not the actual text of the law, it''s what the United States Department of Justice thinks the law says. Thousands of random Google junk links versus the DOJ? I think we can all sleep soundly, knowing that any legal documents served to us on this one will be delived by flying saucers. Found another interesting one while looking for the airline price fixing info: http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/confbd4.htm "If the industry structure is not conducive to coordination, perhaps because entry is easy or because a firm could cut prices in secret and steal business from rivals, a court must recognize that it would be irrational for the firms to engage in the forbidden process which the courts term an agreement, risking prosecution with no hope of gaining market power.(16)" - James Moore _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Warren Seltzer wrote:> As a practical matter, price fixing is pretty darn legal everywhere > outside the US. There > was a famous case of the computer memory manufacturers price fixing. > They met regularly > outside the US and had no trouble at all until they stupidly had a > meeting in Hawaii. The > FBI got ''em. But it was a big deal for the FBI and there''s no way they > have the time and > energy to track down piddling contractors. Think how often the FBI goes > after plumbers > for overcharging. Bubkis. Software people are angels compared to > plumbers. > > Warren SeltzerAnd much more pleasant to deal with too. When''s the last time you walked by a developer working and went -eeeewwwwwwww! Coder''s-Crack, I didn''t need to see that... -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Is this really being ''pretty darn legal'' or just being outside of the scope of US law? Price fixing (with the exception of published books - a protectionist measure) is quite illegal in the UK and the EU unless I am very much mistaken. Six cement companies were prosecuted, convicted and fined the equivalent of EUR 250 Million for price fixing in the 90s. Their fines were reduced but they were still in the EUR 100 million bracket. Nintendo had been fined 150 million euros for price fixing, VW 31 million, BASF fined the equivalent of $250 million for fixing the price of vitamins. That lot just from one quick google trawl. British Airways are currently under investigation for allegedly attempting to fix the price of the airline fuel surcharge. If this were a mailing list of directors of european firms who together operated in "monopolistic competition" in some niche, and we discussed fixing prices then appeared to profit from doing so, I have little doubt that an investigation could ensue. The point is, we would have to stand to demonstrably gain in ways that we would not have done, absent the discussions. Conditions to do so don''t exist here, not least because there are at least in theory alternatives to using Rails and Rails developers. In theory. :) Mike On 2 Jul 2006, at 16:21, Warren Seltzer wrote:> As a practical matter, price fixing is pretty darn legal everywhere > outside the US. There > was a famous case of the computer memory manufacturers price > fixing. They met regularly > outside the US and had no trouble at all until they stupidly had a > meeting in Hawaii. The > FBI got ''em. But it was a big deal for the FBI and there''s no way > they have the time and > energy to track down piddling contractors. Think how often the FBI > goes after plumbers > for overcharging. Bubkis. Software people are angels compared to > plumbers. > > Warren Seltzer > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org [mailto:rails- > bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org] On > Behalf Of James Moore > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 5:16 AM > To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > Subject: RE: [Rails] Freelance Rate > > > Ted Korolchuk''s post was really useful - thanks! > >> While seeing the actual law is useful, it''s still open to >> interpretation. JD or not, I hope you won''t mind if I don''t take your >> advice over *every other source* I''ve found on this: > > You''re comparing a really, _really_ good source to a bunch of > random stuff > you found in Google, though. > > It''s not the actual text of the law, it''s what the United States > Department > of Justice thinks the law says. > > Thousands of random Google junk links versus the DOJ? I think we > can all > sleep soundly, knowing that any legal documents served to us on > this one > will be delived by flying saucers. > > Found another interesting one while looking for the airline price > fixing > info: > > http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/confbd4.htm > > "If the industry structure is not conducive to coordination, > perhaps because > entry is easy or because a firm could cut prices in secret and steal > business from rivals, a court must recognize that it would be > irrational for > the firms to engage in the forbidden process which the courts term an > agreement, risking prosecution with no hope of gaining market power. > (16)" > > - James Moore > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Changing the topic a bit: What''s the best way to get freelance work? I''d like to start dipping my toe in the freelancing waters, perhaps leading to full-time eventually, but I have no idea how to start. Just start a blog and they will come? Rentacoder.com? Steve -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Stephen Molitor <smolitor@erac.com> writes:> Changing the topic a bit: What''s the best way to get freelance work? > I''d like to start dipping my toe in the freelancing waters, perhaps > leading to full-time eventually, but I have no idea how to start. Just > start a blog and they will come? Rentacoder.com? >Yeah, good question. Will be interesting to know the experience of other people around here. IMO the bids at Rentacoder.com are generally very rock bottom, and I definitely cannot work at such low rates. -- Surendra Singhi http://ssinghi.kreeti.com, http://www.kreeti.com Read my blog at: http://cuttingtheredtape.blogspot.com/ ,---- | "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." | -- Orwell, Animal Farm, 1945 `----
Hi, I wouldn''t got for RentAcoder.com, the rates are too low.... buyers there doesn''t want to spend good money but want to spend a little for a lot of work. I would suggest www.getacoder.com which average $300+ along with $20-$100. Kind Regards, Lennie De Villiers OpenMind Connections Website: www.openmindconnections.co.za New Service: www.win-ads.co.za Online Advertisement Coming Soon! -----Original Message----- From: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org [mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org] On Behalf Of Surendra Singhi Sent: 05 July 2006 11:35 AM To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org Subject: [Rails] Re: Getting freelance work Stephen Molitor <smolitor@erac.com> writes:> Changing the topic a bit: What''s the best way to get freelance work? > I''d like to start dipping my toe in the freelancing waters, perhaps > leading to full-time eventually, but I have no idea how to start. Just > start a blog and they will come? Rentacoder.com? >Yeah, good question. Will be interesting to know the experience of other people around here. IMO the bids at Rentacoder.com are generally very rock bottom, and I definitely cannot work at such low rates. -- Surendra Singhi http://ssinghi.kreeti.com, http://www.kreeti.com Read my blog at: http://cuttingtheredtape.blogspot.com/ ,---- | "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." | -- Orwell, Animal Farm, 1945 `---- _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/381 - Release Date: 2006/07/03 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/381 - Release Date: 2006/07/03