Before I get flamed, I just want to start off by saying that I am new to Ruby and I really enjoy this language and want to see it succeed. But, what niche does this language fill? These are serious question, not a put down of the language. Does it has something to offer for Web 2.0? Is it just another scripting language? Does it suppose to replace something else? Does it suppose to work with something else? Why would someone use Ruby over something else? What''s it''s purpose? I''ve read that it is the successor to Java, how is that without native GUI handling and without ODBC/JDBC database handling? Thanks -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
I think you could answer yes to each one of your questions, but ruby''s purpose for me is help me have a little fun when I code. On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 19:26 +0200, Regg Mr wrote:> Before I get flamed, I just want to start off by saying that I am new to > Ruby and I really enjoy this language and want to see it succeed. > > But, what niche does this language fill? > These are serious question, not a put down of the language. > > Does it has something to offer for Web 2.0? > > Is it just another scripting language? > > Does it suppose to replace something else? > > Does it suppose to work with something else? > > Why would someone use Ruby over something else? > > What''s it''s purpose? > > > I''ve read that it is the successor to Java, how is that without native > GUI handling and without ODBC/JDBC database handling? > > Thanks > > >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060516/75b0c8e4/attachment-0001.html
On 5/16/06, Regg Mr <spamwhite@cox.net> wrote:> Before I get flamed, I just want to start off by saying that I am new > to Ruby and I really enjoy this language and want to see it succeed.> But, what niche does this language fill?Does it have to fill a niche? Or can''t it be a general-purpose language with libraries that help it fill many niches?> Does it has something to offer for Web 2.0?In case you didn''t know, you''re posting on ruby-forum, but you''re actually posting *to* the Rails mailing list. This makes it obvious that Ruby has something to offer "Web 2.0" (and 3.0 and 4.0 and just plain web apps, too, if you want to skip the hype).> Is it just another scripting language?Yes, no. (It''s an interpreted language, but that does not mean that it''s any less a real programming language because of that. People who make that distinction [scripting language != real programming language] these days either don''t know what they''re talking about or have a dog in the fight.)> Does it suppose to replace something else?No, yes. (Ruby isn''t to *replace* anything. It''s a separate language. It will end up replacing other languages for projects, but it was written to solve problems that Matz had with languages before it.)> Does it suppose to work with something else?Yes, no. (Your question is unclear. Ruby is infinitely extensible and will work with just about anything.)> Why would someone use Ruby over something else?It''s fun? It''s more concise and expressive?> What''s it''s purpose?Ruby doesn''t need a purpose. It is.> I''ve read that it is the successor to Java, how is that without native > GUI handling and without ODBC/JDBC database handling?*sigh* Wherever you read that, you either misread or the person who wrote it didn''t know what they were talking about. Ruby isn''t a successor to Java. Ruby is a different way of programming. -austin -- Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com * Alternate: austin@halostatue.ca
I concur with Charlie. I''ve never had so much fun coding in my life as when I work with Ruby (which is all day!) -PJ On 5/16/06, Charlie Bowman <charlie@castlebranch.com> wrote:> > I think you could answer yes to each one of your questions, but ruby''s > purpose for me is help me have a little fun when I code. > > > On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 19:26 +0200, Regg Mr wrote: > Before I get flamed, I just want to start off by saying that I am new to > Ruby and I really enjoy this language and want to see it succeed. > > But, what niche does this language fill? > These are serious question, not a put down of the language. > > Does it has something to offer for Web 2.0? > > Is it just another scripting language? > > Does it suppose to replace something else? > > Does it suppose to work with something else? > > Why would someone use Ruby over something else? > > What''s it''s purpose? > > > I''ve read that it is the successor to Java, how is that without native > GUI handling and without ODBC/JDBC database handling? > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > >
To "get" ruby : Think of a cool app you can make. Read some Rails books (Agile Web Development w/ Rails) and start coding. You will have a series of what I call an "RoR moment". This is when you finish something like AJAX auto-complete or scaffolding for the first time, and you think to yourself "Wow, that was neat." You complete your application. You''ve learned some ruby and rails doing this. Time passes by, and you''re doing your day job, which might be in Java. You get a new assignment, a web app, in struts/tapestry/jsf/whatever You start the app. Almost line by line, you will start to think to yourself "I can save so much time in RoR/this functionality is easy to implement in RoR" Then you''ll cry. Then you''ll beg your uppers to adopt RoR. and then you will "get" ruby. Jin (yeah, I cried) On 5/16/06, PJ Hyett <pjhyett@gmail.com> wrote:> > I concur with Charlie. I''ve never had so much fun coding in my life as > when I work with Ruby (which is all day!) > > -PJ > > On 5/16/06, Charlie Bowman <charlie@castlebranch.com> wrote: > > > > I think you could answer yes to each one of your questions, but ruby''s > > purpose for me is help me have a little fun when I code. > > > > > > On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 19:26 +0200, Regg Mr wrote: > > Before I get flamed, I just want to start off by saying that I am new > to > > Ruby and I really enjoy this language and want to see it succeed. > > > > But, what niche does this language fill? > > These are serious question, not a put down of the language. > > > > Does it has something to offer for Web 2.0? > > > > Is it just another scripting language? > > > > Does it suppose to replace something else? > > > > Does it suppose to work with something else? > > > > Why would someone use Ruby over something else? > > > > What''s it''s purpose? > > > > > > I''ve read that it is the successor to Java, how is that without native > > GUI handling and without ODBC/JDBC database handling? > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060516/e4163aec/attachment.html
Regg Mr wrote:> Before I get flamed, I just want to start off by saying that I am new to > Ruby and I really enjoy this language and want to see it succeed. > > But, what niche does this language fill? > These are serious question, not a put down of the language. > > Does it has something to offer for Web 2.0? > > Is it just another scripting language? > > Does it suppose to replace something else? > > Does it suppose to work with something else? > > Why would someone use Ruby over something else? > > What''s it''s purpose? > > > I''ve read that it is the successor to Java, how is that without native > GUI handling and without ODBC/JDBC database handling? > > ThanksThis is a good place to start http://www.artima.com/intv/rubyP.html -- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
On May 16, 2006, at 19:26, Regg Mr wrote:> Does it suppose to replace something else?Ruby: Perl is a kludge, and Lisp syntax is scary. "What Languages Fix" http://www.paulgraham.com/fix.html Cheers -- PA, Onnay Equitursay http://alt.textdrive.com/
Good evening, In the June edition of "Dr Dobb''s Journal", the cover story is "Ruby On Rails Java''s Successor? Check it out next month at www.ddj.com I''ve been working with ASP.Net, C#, VB.Net and SQL Server for the past two years. I''ve started working with RoR [Ruby On Rails] and MySql. I''m going thru the book AWDWR ["Agile Web Development with Rails"] and I''m finding it to fun...first time I could say that in long time. Try it, I''m sure you''ll like it. Cheers, Pat -----Original Message----- From: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org [mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org] On Behalf Of PA Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 2:18 PM To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org Subject: Re: [Rails] Ruby''s purpose? On May 16, 2006, at 19:26, Regg Mr wrote:> Does it suppose to replace something else?Ruby: Perl is a kludge, and Lisp syntax is scary. "What Languages Fix" http://www.paulgraham.com/fix.html Cheers -- PA, Onnay Equitursay http://alt.textdrive.com/ _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Hi, Check out the June issue of Dr. Dobb''s Journal -- the cover article is "Ruby On Rails Java''s Successor?" -- interesting article...see next month www.ddu.com -----Original Message----- From: rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org [mailto:rails-bounces@lists.rubyonrails.org] On Behalf Of Austin Ziegler Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 1:46 PM To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org Subject: Re: [Rails] Ruby''s purpose? On 5/16/06, Regg Mr <spamwhite@cox.net> wrote:> Before I get flamed, I just want to start off by saying that I am new > to Ruby and I really enjoy this language and want to see it succeed.> But, what niche does this language fill?Does it have to fill a niche? Or can''t it be a general-purpose language with libraries that help it fill many niches?> Does it has something to offer for Web 2.0?In case you didn''t know, you''re posting on ruby-forum, but you''re actually posting *to* the Rails mailing list. This makes it obvious that Ruby has something to offer "Web 2.0" (and 3.0 and 4.0 and just plain web apps, too, if you want to skip the hype).> Is it just another scripting language?Yes, no. (It''s an interpreted language, but that does not mean that it''s any less a real programming language because of that. People who make that distinction [scripting language != real programming language] these days either don''t know what they''re talking about or have a dog in the fight.)> Does it suppose to replace something else?No, yes. (Ruby isn''t to *replace* anything. It''s a separate language. It will end up replacing other languages for projects, but it was written to solve problems that Matz had with languages before it.)> Does it suppose to work with something else?Yes, no. (Your question is unclear. Ruby is infinitely extensible and will work with just about anything.)> Why would someone use Ruby over something else?It''s fun? It''s more concise and expressive?> What''s it''s purpose?Ruby doesn''t need a purpose. It is.> I''ve read that it is the successor to Java, how is that without native > GUI handling and without ODBC/JDBC database handling?*sigh* Wherever you read that, you either misread or the person who wrote it didn''t know what they were talking about. Ruby isn''t a successor to Java. Ruby is a different way of programming. -austin -- Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com * Alternate: austin@halostatue.ca _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> > Is it just another scripting language? > > Yes, no. (It''s an interpreted language, but that does not > mean that it''s > any less a real programming language because of that. People who make > that distinction [scripting language != real programming > language] these > days either don''t know what they''re talking about or have a dog in the > fight.)Interpreted languages, lets see, all of .NET (inc C++), Perl, Python, PHP, Lisp, Smalltalk, Java and the list goes on. The runtime execution environment doesn''t really have much to do with the language contructs. Even at the processor level CISC byte codes get executed/interpreted into microcode. All these languages can do scripting (quick and dirty) or more robust dare I say enterprise systems. Really the scripting language debate should be dead. In this day and age we should be getting away from low level constructs in our development in 95% of cases. I want to get on with the job of developing business solutions not worrying about memory allocation, how to slice and dice arrays et al. I want to program at a higher level of abstraction (with the ability to drill down in the 5% of cases I need to). Ruby is an enabler in that direction (Yay for Meta programming)
Regg Mr wrote:> Before I get flamed, I just want to start off by saying that I am new to > Ruby and I really enjoy this language and want to see it succeed. > > But, what niche does this language fill? >Since you''re on a Rails list, certainly one niche it fills is the niche occupied by agile methodology for developing Model-View-Controller web applications.> These are serious question, not a put down of the language. > > Does it has something to offer for Web 2.0? >Web 2.0 is a buzzword more than anything else.> Is it just another scripting language? >It certainly started out as a scripting language, but when I look at the language now (1.8.4) it seems more like a general-purpose object-oriented programming language. The only thing in Ruby that I think would put it in a "scripting" class is the fact that it contains built-in regular expression processing, like Perl.> Does it suppose to replace something else? >Not that I know of. Billions of lines of code exist in other languages -- C, Perl, Python, Java, Lisp, Fortran, PHP, ... There isn''t much reason for those lines to get rewritten as long as their owners can find programmers who know the languages. New code, on the other hand, is a whole different story. Most of the programming I do is in a specialized domain, computational mathematics and statistics. For that purpose, I mostly use R and occasionally Axiom. And I still maintain a fairly large base of Perl scripts that I have written over the past ten years or so -- well before I knew of Ruby''s existence. My preference for new non-numeric code now would be Ruby.> Does it suppose to work with something else? >It works on its own or with most anything else. See "Enterprise Integration with Ruby" for some of the "anything else".> Why would someone use Ruby over something else? >Because they get paid to do it, because they enjoy doing it, or because their parents forbade them to. :)> What''s it''s purpose? > > > I''ve read that it is the successor to Java, how is that without native > GUI handling and without ODBC/JDBC database handling? >There is actually a "native" Ruby GUI, an interface to the Tk toolkit similar to Perl/Tk. Most other toolkits, like Fox and QT, have Ruby bindings. And there are numerous Ruby interfaces to databases, including the free ones -- MySQL, SQLite, PostgreSQL -- and Oracle, MS SQL Server and probably Sybase too.> Thanks > > > >-- M. Edward (Ed) Borasky http://linuxcapacityplanning.com
All of what you have listed is what got me looking at Rubt in the first place. Other than the language being fun, I have to make a living, what can it do for me that i don''t already have? Pat Lynch wrote:> Good evening, > > In the June edition of "Dr Dobb''s Journal", the cover story is "Ruby On > Rails Java''s Successor? Check it out next month at www.ddj.com > > I''ve been working with ASP.Net, C#, VB.Net and SQL Server for the past > two years. I''ve started working with RoR [Ruby On Rails] and MySql. I''m > going thru the book AWDWR ["Agile Web Development with Rails"] and I''m > finding it to fun...first time I could say that in long time. > > Try it, I''m sure you''ll like it. > > Cheers, > Pat-- Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
What would you like it to do for you? On 5/16/06, Regg Mr <spamwhite@cox.net> wrote:> > All of what you have listed is what got me looking at Rubt in the first > place. > > Other than the language being fun, I have to make a living, what can it > do for me that i don''t already have? > > > > Pat Lynch wrote: > > Good evening, > > > > In the June edition of "Dr Dobb''s Journal", the cover story is "Ruby On > > Rails Java''s Successor? Check it out next month at www.ddj.com > > > > I''ve been working with ASP.Net, C#, VB.Net and SQL Server for the past > > two years. I''ve started working with RoR [Ruby On Rails] and MySql. I''m > > going thru the book AWDWR ["Agile Web Development with Rails"] and I''m > > finding it to fun...first time I could say that in long time. > > > > Try it, I''m sure you''ll like it. > > > > Cheers, > > Pat > > > -- > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/. > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wrath.rubyonrails.org/pipermail/rails/attachments/20060517/351c6df6/attachment.html
On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 20:32 -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:> > Does it suppose to work with something else? > > > It works on its own or with most anything else. See "Enterprise > Integration with Ruby" for some of the "anything else". >We have been reviewing this book at work. The book''s definition of enterprise computing is a couple of scales smaller than my real world day-to-day work. Ruby is there for "bread and butter" applications, but it isn''t quite up to interacting with a mission critical, busy (1.2M transactions per hour average, 2.4M peak) database that is shared amongst multiple applications. However, that level of support is coming as the language matures. What I find most lacking is support for prepared statements in the SQL drivers. In most circumstances, the prepare actually consumes more time than the execution of a query. I have seen real queries take 20 minutes to prepare, but 30 milliseconds to execute. In a busy production environment, you can often afford a one-time startup cost of prepare, but you can''t afford to spend 80% of your DBMS CPU on repeated prepares of the same query. In a really busy enterprise scale database, prepared statements are the difference between doesn''t work at all and flies through work without any stress. JDBC gets around the lack of prepared statement support in some DBMS''s by faking the prepared statements with sanitized string substitution (like ActiveRecord uses), but supporting it fully where a native DBMS solution exists. So far, I have confirmed that prepared statement support exists for firebird (and interbase), DB2, Oracle, MS-SQL, Sybase, and Access. With Jim Starkey (architect of Firebird/Interbase/RDB and Netfrastructure) moving to MySQL, we can expect MySQL to support prepared statements in the near future (about the same time it supports real ACID transactions).
> Other than the language being fun, I have to make a living, > what can it > do for me that i don''t already have?Express the solution in a clear and elegant fashion ;-D , but your existing platforms may have that already for the desired domain. At the end of the day Ruby is just another language. + It''s fully OO from the ground up (everything is an object) which is nice. Not tacked on like C++ and derivatives like Java, C#, Perl, PHP etc. +/- It''s not the fastest out there but the expression of purpose can provide hidden gains. + It''s certainly powerful. You can use it to develop a Web Server (WebBrick, Mongrel or a complete Web framework (Rails) and lots more besides. - It''s still maturing, the library certainly isn''t as big as Perl''s CPAN + It''s brief without being terse. + It''s principle of "least surprise" to an experienced Ruby developer. It''s suits Matz''s purpose it may suit yours, you wont know till you try. Even if you don''t end up using Ruby you may learn some programming constructs that will be useful to you existing toolset. I think it was Chad Fowler that advocates learning a new language every year or so. I don''t think anyone on the list can tell you if Ruby is right for you. You''ll have to take a look at it and make the assesment yourself. Most problems can be solved in any Von-Neumann complete language. The expression of being fun is by no means an indicator of a toy language. It''s more an expression of "I enjoyed writing that code, it went the way I expected, or, why don''t all languages express construct X that way because it was easy to express and made sense".
On 5/16/06, Ross Dawson <Ross_Dawson@aas.kaz.com.au> wrote:> Interpreted languages, lets see, all of .NET (inc C++), Perl, Python, PHP, Lisp, > Smalltalk, Java and the list goes on. The runtime execution environment doesn''t > really have much to do with the language contructs. Even at the processor level > CISC byte codes get executed/interpreted into microcode. All these languages > can do scripting (quick and dirty) or more robust dare I say enterprise systems. > Really the scripting language debate should be dead.Um. Actually, none of the .NET languages are interpreted (and neither is Java). Java is compiled to bytecode which may then be interpreted, but Java itself isn''t interpreted. The .NET languages are all compiled to MSIL (an intermediate language) which will *then* be converted into machine code on first execution. I agree with what you said about higher levels of abstraction, but your statement above about interpreted languages is not quite correct. -austin -- Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com * Alternate: austin@halostatue.ca
On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 08:08 -0400, Austin Ziegler wrote:> Java is compiled to bytecode which may then be interpreted, > but Java itself isn''t interpreted.With JIT compilers, the bytecode is compiled to native machine code. Some midrange systems (RS/6000 and AS/400) actually implement come of the java byte code in microcode, making java lightning fast on those systems.
On 5/16/06, PA <petite.abeille@gmail.com> wrote:> "What Languages Fix" > http://www.paulgraham.com/fix.htmlJavaScript doesn''t fix anything. Interesting.
Woof... don''t tell Douglas Crockford that! b (http://www.crockford.com/javascript/javascript.html) Peter Michaux wrote:> On 5/16/06, PA <petite.abeille@gmail.com> wrote: > >> "What Languages Fix" >> http://www.paulgraham.com/fix.html > > > JavaScript doesn''t fix anything. Interesting. > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails