My Railing friends.... I have a problem. I want to present Rails as an option to the company I work for but have to be really prepared to get hammered with questions and rejection/fear faces during the presentation. The point is that I''d like to know how you would make the pitch and what you''d respond to arguments like: 1. We are hiring more PHP developers. 2. You are the only one that knows ruby and/or rails. 3. We only have PHP and Java developers. 4. We can''t just switch to an obscure language just because you say the framework is great. 5. If you leave us, what do we do? How do we know how to find someone that know this stuff? 6. I don''t like frameworks. (<- I actually got this one from one of the Java developers) 6. I''m scared. I feel confident there are no limitations that really need serious consideration as we are not doing anything out of the ordinary but they will attack me with such arguments. Thank you, Luis Gómez ---------------------- Miami Beach, FL 33139 ---------------------- _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
On 6 Oct 2005, at 17:53, Luis Gómez wrote:> The point is that I''d like to know how you would make the pitch and > what you''d respond to arguments like:Well, I don''t know. If you have a genuinely workable PHP/java model, you may never convince them to change, and perhaps you should not. But here goes, anyway.> 1. We are hiring more PHP developers."Ruby is very easy to learn - a scripting language like PHP - but provides an uncommon opportunity to develop really high quality, modular object oriented code, which PHP can frustrate." Give examples. ;)> 2. You are the only one that knows ruby and/or rails.Run the video, or do a quick rails demo? Show them the book, explain that there are more on the way. Commit to training people, producing documentation, examples. Maybe suggest you should take on a current problem in rails, to show people how it can be done, as an exercise. (Commit to rewriting it in PHP/Java should you fail.)> 3. We only have PHP and Java developers."Ruby is an object oriented (like Java) scripting language (like PHP). It need not be an either/or, but Rails offers a single language platform which should appeal to both PHP and Java developers". "There are tasks which are too complex for PHP, but perhaps need to be developed more rapidly than we can with Java. Rails is in the middle, and uses techniques from both." Compare a PHP template for some simple task with a rails template for the same task. Show them how similar they are, then maybe show them something neat and productive about Rails. Compare a java class with a ruby class - very similar. "This way, we can be more flexible with our teams. PHP and Java developers can work together in a single language, develop prototypes rapidly, and share knowledge."> 4. We can''t just switch to an obscure language just because you say > the framework is great."And nor should you. However, there are many people in the industry who are talking about just how great it is." e.g. Rick Ross, founder of Javalobby: "The next time you need to get the job done very quickly you may want to try out Ruby on Rails for yourself. I don’t know enough yet to say how much it can scale, but Rails is quite clearly a major step forward for those who want web application development to be easier. " ( http://weblog.rubyonrails.com/archives/2005/06/16/javalobby-founder- ruby-on-rails-is-a-powerhouse ) Google for more.> 5. If you leave us, what do we do? How do we know how to find someone > that know this stuff?I think you''ve answered this a bit by the time you''ve dealt with 3. But the crux of it is, you promise to train both PHP and Java developers, and point out there''s an O''Reilly book on the way, which seems to calm Java people a lot.> 6. I don''t like frameworks. (<- I actually got this one from one of > the Java developers)Pros and cons of frameworks time, if the video hasn''t convinced them then maybe you could write a small but meaningful application right in front of them.> 6. I''m scared.Good feeling, isn''t it. ;)> I feel confident there are no limitations that really need serious > consideration as we are not doing anything out of the ordinary but > they will attack me with such arguments.If it emerges that you can''t convince them, don''t try. Life''s too short, and otherwise good jobs too precious - add Rails-like features to the existing framework where appropriate. Have fun, Mike
On 06/10/05, Luis Gómez <lgomez-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > 1. We are hiring more PHP developers. > 2. You are the only one that knows ruby and/or rails. > 3. We only have PHP and Java developers.If they know Java or PHP, they will learn Ruby rather quickly, and (on top) be more productive afterwards. This makes 1,2 and 3 non-arguments :)> 4. We can''t just switch to an obscure language just because you say the framework is > great.Not knowing a language doesn''t make it obscure.> 5. If you leave us, what do we do? How do we know how to find someone that know this > stuff?Answer: Soon all the other programmers will know "this stuff" as good as i do (if they want to), thereafter you may fire me for making this company a more happy and productive place.> 6. I don''t like frameworks. (<- I actually got this one from one of the Java developers)But rails isn''t a framework that dictates alot. It provides a lot of (very good) default settings, but it''s easy to extend/overwrite this standard behaviour.> 7. I''m scared.It is normal to be affraid of someting you don''t know of, but look a little deeper into it, and al your feares will be gone. Hopes this helps a little bit, wannes ps. I haven''t done any rails project yet (only read this list for a few months and read a few beginners-tutorials on rails) but the agile book arrived today so it won''t be long :)
Luis Gómez wrote:> My Railing friends.... I have a problem.I am going through this myself. I don''t have "right" answers, but here is how I''ve been approaching these issues:> 1. We are hiring more PHP developers. > 2. You are the only one that knows ruby and/or rails. > 3. We only have PHP and Java developers. > 4. We can''t just switch to an obscure language just because you say the > framework is great. > 5. If you leave us, what do we do? How do we know how to find someone > that know this stuff?These seem related to me. They are valid concerns, but the question is how much weight they deserve in the evaluation. In no particular order: 1. How many PHP developers did we have when we decided to use PHP? 2. Ruby/Rails is not difficult to learn, the learning curve is probably less than PHP''s. 3. Rails/Ruby has an active development community with job postings. And, Rails/Ruby developers are frequently perceived to be more "advanced" developers than the average PHP developer. (By nature of their having explored a developing language.) 4. Several individuals (myself included) have reported that learning Rails has helped them to organize their work on other projects. At the end of the day, it comes down to weighing the risks against the benefits. Replacing You/Learning Rails seem like trivial concerns. I think the agile development benefits outweigh them, but maybe the best would be a head-to-head comparison. Also: At an organizational level, your company has to decide whether they are "leaders" or "followers" -- "leaders" means taking risks, but being at the fore-front of developing trends. If they can''t make the benefits pay out, there is little motivation to accept the risks.> 6. I don''t like frameworks. (<- I actually got this one from one of the > Java developers)It''s hard to address this without knowing why. I, personally, would be afraid of being stuck in a arduous procedure I have little control over. Others might be afraid of re-learning. Rails API is extensive, I think it could be daunting, but it''s very flexible. I think the best response may to the "Try one bite" that parents use with children. "At least try it once. If you don''t like it, you don''t have to use it further, but at least get some first-hand experience before giving up on the idea out-of-hand."> 6. I''m scared.? Wow. I am amazed how knee-jerk reactionary some have been to Rails/Ruby/new tech. It seems more common with IT/administration than with development -- which makes sense: new technology headaches are more often their "burden to bear". But still, I, at least, got into this field for the "sensawunda", not to mindlessly repeat myself day after day. -- joshua
First, take a look at Obie''s "Ruby and Rails Bullet Points" posting: http://jroller.com/page/obie/20050918 This is a really good overview of the main points at an executive level. Then, check out the repository of Ruby and Rails presentations that you can download from the WhyRuby project: http://rubyforge.org/docman/?group_id=251 Curt On 10/6/05, Luis Gómez <lgomez-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > My Railing friends.... I have a problem. > I want to present Rails as an option to the company I work for but have to > be really prepared to get hammered with questions and rejection/fear faces > during the presentation. > > The point is that I''d like to know how you would make the pitch and what > you''d respond to arguments like: > > 1. We are hiring more PHP developers. > 2. You are the only one that knows ruby and/or rails. > 3. We only have PHP and Java developers. > 4. We can''t just switch to an obscure language just because you say the > framework is great. > 5. If you leave us, what do we do? How do we know how to find someone that > know this stuff? > 6. I don''t like frameworks. (<- I actually got this one from one of the > Java developers) > 6. I''m scared. > > I feel confident there are no limitations that really need serious > consideration as we are not doing anything out of the ordinary but they will > attack me with such arguments. > > Thank you, > > *Luis Gómez* > ---------------------- > Miami Beach, FL 33139 > ---------------------- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > >_______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Also, your point #4 is easy to address. Look at software industry experts are saying: Tim O''Reilly, founder or the O''Reilly media empire: http://weblog.rubyonrails.com/archives/2005/07/08/tim-o-reilly-rails-has-taking-the-world-by-storm http://rubyforge.org/docman/?group_id=251 List of prominent Java developers pushing Rails: http://jroller.com/page/dgeary?entry=tipping_rails Thoughtworks, consultants to the Global 1000 companies: http://www.thoughtworks.com/ruby.html David Duncan Davidson (author of Ant, Tomcat, Servlet API...): http://blog.x180.net/2005/06/rails_a_few_wee.html Tim Bray (co-inventor of XML): http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2005/08/27/Ruby Hope that helps. Curt On 10/6/05, Curt Hibbs <curt.hibbs-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > First, take a look at Obie''s "Ruby and Rails Bullet Points" posting: > > http://jroller.com/page/obie/20050918 > > This is a really good overview of the main points at an executive level. > > Then, check out the repository of Ruby and Rails presentations that you > can download from the WhyRuby project: > > http://rubyforge.org/docman/?group_id=251 > > Curt > > On 10/6/05, Luis Gómez <lgomez-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > My Railing friends.... I have a problem. > > I want to present Rails as an option to the company I work for but have > > to be really prepared to get hammered with questions and rejection/fear > > faces during the presentation. > > > > The point is that I''d like to know how you would make the pitch and what > > you''d respond to arguments like: > > > > 1. We are hiring more PHP developers. > > 2. You are the only one that knows ruby and/or rails. > > 3. We only have PHP and Java developers. > > 4. We can''t just switch to an obscure language just because you say the > > framework is great. > > 5. If you leave us, what do we do? How do we know how to find someone > > that know this stuff? > > 6. I don''t like frameworks. (<- I actually got this one from one of the > > Java developers) > > 6. I''m scared. > > > > I feel confident there are no limitations that really need serious > > consideration as we are not doing anything out of the ordinary but they will > > attack me with such arguments. > > > > Thank you, > > > > *Luis Gómez* > > ---------------------- > > Miami Beach, FL 33139 > > ---------------------- > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Well ... if you approach this as an "objection handling" problem you could very well lose. The key is to address the issues up front, before the audience raises them. So ... 1. Why do you "want to present Rails as an option?" 2. What is the problem that needs to be solved? 3. Why has it not been solved yet with tools other than Rails? 4. Where is the company now relative to this problem? 5. Where would the company like to be relative to this problem? 6. What is the cost of not solving the problem? 7. Who needs to recognize that a problem exists? Once you can answer *these* questions, think again ... is Rails really the way to get from where you are to where you need to be? Luis Gómez wrote:> My Railing friends.... I have a problem. > > I want to present Rails as an option to the company I work for but > have to be really prepared to get hammered with questions and > rejection/fear faces during the presentation. > > The point is that I''d like to know how you would make the pitch and > what you''d respond to arguments like: > > 1. We are hiring more PHP developers. > 2. You are the only one that knows ruby and/or rails. > 3. We only have PHP and Java developers. > 4. We can''t just switch to an obscure language just because you say > the framework is great. > 5. If you leave us, what do we do? How do we know how to find someone > that know this stuff? > 6. I don''t like frameworks. (<- I actually got this one from one of > the Java developers) > 6. I''m scared. > > I feel confident there are no limitations that really need serious > consideration as we are not doing anything out of the ordinary but > they will attack me with such arguments. > > Thank you, > > *Luis Gómez* > ---------------------- > Miami Beach, FL 33139 > ---------------------- > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Rails mailing list >Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org >http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > >-- M. Edward (Ed) Borasky http://www.borasky-research.net/ http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/ http://pdxneurosemantics.com http://pdx-sales-coach.com http://algocompsynth.com