I am Rails newbie; I have gone through the tutorial in ONLamp. Can someone recommend a good rails book that will help me as I start playing around with rails on my own? Thanks GE _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
"Agile Web Development with Rails" by Dave Thomas and DHH. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/097669400X?v=glance I am Rails newbie; I have gone through the tutorial in ONLamp. Can someone recommend a good rails book that will help me as I start playing around with rails on my own? Thanks GE _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Which is not shipping until late October unfortunately. I placed an order on 25 August and am being told that it will ship between 18 October and 7 November! Richard
I got a soft copy from emule, may you can have a try. Good Luck. Gigix>Which is not shipping until late October unfortunately. I placed an >order on 25 August and am being told that it will ship between 18 >October and 7 November! > >Richard >_______________________________________________ >Rails mailing list >Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org >http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
On Thu, Sep 22, 2005, Richard Sandilands wrote:> Which is not shipping until late October unfortunately. I placed an > order on 25 August and am being told that it will ship between 18 > October and 7 November!Or you can order it direct from the publisher at http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails/index.html I''ve also heard that many large bookstore chains carry it. Ben
熊节 wrote:> I got a soft copy from emule, may you can have a try. Good Luck. > > GigixLegit PDF of "Agile Web Development with Rails" here: http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails/index.html -- We develop, watch us RoR, in numbers too big to ignore.
Try www.powells.com if you can''t find it anywhere else. I saw a couple of copies on the shelf there a couple days ago. If the PDX Rails geeks haven''t cleaned them out, they should have a copy. Is the publisher sold out already?? Ben Bleything wrote:>On Thu, Sep 22, 2005, Richard Sandilands wrote: > > >>Which is not shipping until late October unfortunately. I placed an >>order on 25 August and am being told that it will ship between 18 >>October and 7 November! >> >> > >Or you can order it direct from the publisher at >http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/rails/index.html > >I''ve also heard that many large bookstore chains carry it. > >Ben >_______________________________________________ >Rails mailing list >Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org >http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > >-- M. Edward (Ed) Borasky http://www.borasky-research.net/ http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/ http://pdxneurosemantics.com http://pdx-sales-coach.com http://algocompsynth.com
On Wed, Sep 21, 2005, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:> Try www.powells.com if you can''t find it anywhere else. I saw a couple > of copies on the shelf there a couple days ago. If the PDX Rails geeks > haven''t cleaned them out, they should have a copy. Is the publisher sold > out already??Heh, I pre-ordered mine, so the Powell''s stock is safe. PragProg says they have it in stock. Ben
On Sep 21, 2005, at 11:57 PM, 熊节 wrote:> I got a soft copy from emule, may you can have a try. Good Luck.Sigh. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you can''t trust people. Maybe we should have put DRM and copy protection on the PDFs. This makes me sad. Dave
On Sep 21, 2005, at 11:42 PM, Richard Sandilands wrote:> Which is not shipping until late October unfortunately. I placed an > order on 25 August and am being told that it will ship between 18 > October and 7 November!We''re shippng them from stock here. Amazon underordered, and so it out of stock until the second printing hits the streets. Dave
>> I got a soft copy from emule, may you can have a try. Good Luck. > > Sigh. > > Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you can''t trust people. Maybe we should have > put DRM and copy protection on the PDFs. > > This makes me sad.Dave don''t get discouraged. I understand this, and yeah... this guy''s a @*$&$!#% (fill that in however you want :D), but you did a good thing with the branding that you did. I already congratulated you for this privately, and come to think of it on my website as well :) I returned my soft copy of the "The Ruby Way" simply because of the DRM. I didn''t even give the book a chance. I wouldn''t have bought your book in hard-copy form since i think print is dead, but nor would I have bought it in soft-copy form if you did DRM on it. Remember that not every "stolen" copy is a lost sale, but every returned book due to DRM is. Keep up the good fight :) Regs, D P.S. Great @#$%!%! (fill that in however you want as well :D) book! -- Derek Wyatt - C++ / Ruby / Unix Programmer http://derekwyatt.org
Also, overstock.com has it as well. Ron -----Original Message----- From: Ben Bleything [mailto:ben@bleything.net] Sent: Thu 9/22/2005 1:26 AM To: rails@lists.rubyonrails.org Cc: Subject: Re: [Rails] Rails books On Wed, Sep 21, 2005, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote: > Try www.powells.com if you can't find it anywhere else. I saw a couple > of copies on the shelf there a couple days ago. If the PDX Rails geeks > haven't cleaned them out, they should have a copy. Is the publisher sold > out already?? Heh, I pre-ordered mine, so the Powell's stock is safe. PragProg says they have it in stock. Ben _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
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I got a copy of the PDF from a friend. I liked it so much that I
spent the money to get one with my own name at the bottom. I
probably wouldn''t be working with RoR today if there had been DRM on
the PDF.
Thanks Dave,
George
- --
George Hotelling GPG: 0x8175D485 ]
http://george.hotelling.net ]
_ _ _ ___ _ _ _/
On Sep 22, 2005, at 8:00 AM, Dave Thomas wrote:
> Sigh.
>
> Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you can''t trust people. Maybe we should
> have put DRM and copy protection on the PDFs.
>
> This makes me sad.
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Dave Thomas wrote:> > On Sep 21, 2005, at 11:57 PM, 熊节 wrote: > >> I got a soft copy from emule, may you can have a try. Good Luck. > > > Sigh. > > Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you can''t trust people. Maybe we should have > put DRM and copy protection on the PDFs. > > This makes me sad. > > > Dave_______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >Dave, I bought "Programming Ruby" from the regular bookstore already, then I bought the PDF from the website. Thank you for only branding it so that you will know which idiot let it out and not making it so I cannot read it on my PDA. I am pondering buying the Rails book, I just need to decide if it will be enough help to make it worth the expense, or whether I will get every thing I need from the built in API docs. Now, we need to get together and collectively (and figuratively, not physically) pummel not only the guy bragging on downloading and offering to share, but also the idiot whose book it is that originally was that is now shared. We kick him off the mailing list, get the hosting companies to block him, block his IP from Rubyforge and RubyonRails.org. Whatever it takes. Dave has done a great service to the community, not only by authoring these books, but also by making the usable by not putting DRM on them. Let''s stand up and help him in return.
I agree with Derek here. I think the pdfs are great, and that making them any more awkward would not be good. I think that a certain amount of piracy is inevitable, but on top of the fact that you could end up losing more sales from drm as Derek points out, there''s also the factor that a certain amount of piracy is actually healthy. I spend more money on music since I''ve started filesharing than I ever did before. Also I have a huge library of prohibitively expensive proffessional audio software, as a result of which I occasionaly spend money on audio software (if I esp want support/manual/need it now). Had this library not be available to me I would never have considered learning to compose music. And finally, imagine someone who downloads your book, reads it, loves it (which they obviously will) and needs to have the hardcopy buy their side at all times, or recommends it to their boss, who goes out and buys 5 copies. I think fear of piracy is a throwback to the predigital age, and that in reality piracy is a vital part of the economy. I paid for my copies of your books tho :) On 9/22/05, Ron DiFrango <rdifrango-wfttzDtloRfhmZgEOWDAxUEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > Also, overstock.com <http://overstock.com> has it as well. > > Ron > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Bleything [mailto:ben-TGHtUsa5cOzMFIMGWPqnnw@public.gmane.org] > Sent: Thu 9/22/2005 1:26 AM > To: rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > Cc: > Subject: Re: [Rails] Rails books > > > > On Wed, Sep 21, 2005, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote: > > Try www.powells.com <http://www.powells.com> if you can''t find it > anywhere else. I saw a couple > > of copies on the shelf there a couple days ago. If the PDX Rails geeks > > haven''t cleaned them out, they should have a copy. Is the publisher sold > > out already?? > > Heh, I pre-ordered mine, so the Powell''s stock is safe. PragProg says > they have it in stock. > > Ben > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > >_______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
On Sep 22, 2005, at 5:00 AM, Dave Thomas wrote:>> I got a soft copy from emule, may you can have a try. Good Luck. >> > > Sigh. > > Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you can''t trust people. Maybe we should > have put DRM and copy protection on the PDFs. > > This makes me sad.I for one wouldn''t have gotten the PDF version if it had DRM. Been there, done that, burned too many times. A friend lend me the PDF version of "Programming Ruby" which was what tuned me into how well you make the PDFs. I''ve bought the RoR book in both formats by now and a paper copy of Programming Ruby (but not the PDF). The RoR book is still in stock at a few stores: http://www.allbookstores.com/book/compare/097669400X http://www.allbookstores.com/book/097669400X/ Agile_Web_Development_With_Rails.html - ask ps. I agree it is sad that people are distributing the book on the peer to peer networks... :-( -- http://askask.com/ - http://develooper.com/
On 22/09/05, Dave Thomas <dave@pragprog.com> wrote:> > On Sep 21, 2005, at 11:57 PM, 熊节 wrote: > > > I got a soft copy from emule, may you can have a try. Good Luck. > > Sigh. > > Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you can't trust people. Maybe we should have > put DRM and copy protection on the PDFs. > > This makes me sad.I hope it didn't take this long for you to realize there would be bootleg copies of your book circulating. Surely you didn't expect zero presence of the Rails book in the p2p networks? :-) "Emule copies" can easily become 'trial versions' that translate into legit copies, especially paper ones. And in the case it ain't so, it's highly dubious than anyone who settles for a bootleg would actually buy the book. So, cheer up, I heard the book is a success! :-) -- Manuel a veces :) a veces :( pero siempre trabajando duro para Simplelógica: apariencia, experiencia y comunicación en la web. http://simplelogica.net # (+34) 985 22 12 65 ¡Ah! y escribiendo en Logicola: http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Le Jeudi 22 Septembre 2005 14:00, Dave Thomas wrote :> On Sep 21, 2005, at 11:57 PM, 熊节 wrote: > > I got a soft copy from emule, may you can have a try. Good Luck. > > Sigh. > > Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you can''t trust people. Maybe we should have > put DRM and copy protection on the PDFs. > > This makes me sad. >Dave, Saddening it is, indeed. I couldn''t agree more. But there will always be free riders (that can defeat any DRM if they really want). I suppose the vast majority of the people that ordered your book in digital form (beta or final) were both honest and glad to pay for it. As a beta-book reader, I know I sure was (congrats for the good work, BTW!). If free riders don''t consider your book worthy of the few coins it rightfully costs, it means they never really constituted an audience, to begin with. You *do* have an audience and a substantial one, thank goodness. Are these people worth a minute of your concern? dominique rose-rosette
Just read my last post and decided it was somewhat on the caustic side. You're doing a great job, and while I still stand by what I said, I realise it's much easier for me to wax philisophical when it's not my livelyhood that's at stake. Thanks for the great books robbie On 9/22/05, Dominique Rose-Rosette <ml@geronimodirect.com> wrote:> > Le Jeudi 22 Septembre 2005 14:00, Dave Thomas wrote: > > On Sep 21, 2005, at 11:57 PM, 熊节 wrote: > > > I got a soft copy from emule, may you can have a try. Good Luck. > > > > Sigh. > > > > Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you can't trust people. Maybe we should have > > put DRM and copy protection on the PDFs. > > > > This makes me sad. > > > > Dave, > > Saddening it is, indeed. I couldn't agree more. But there will always be > free > riders (that can defeat any DRM if they really want). I suppose the vast > majority of the people that ordered your book in digital form (beta or > final) > were both honest and glad to pay for it. As a beta-book reader, I know I > sure > was (congrats for the good work, BTW!). > > If free riders don't consider your book worthy of the few coins it > rightfully > costs, it means they never really constituted an audience, to begin with. > You > *do* have an audience and a substantial one, thank goodness. Are these > people > worth a minute of your concern? > > > > > dominique rose-rosette > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails@lists.rubyonrails.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >_______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
> > I got a soft copy from emule, may you can have a try. Good Luck. > > This makes me sad.While I had no illusions that the Rails book would ever show up on the p2p networks, I'm extremely sad to see that anyone would have the nerves to actively encourage this conduct on the official Rails list :(. I still totally believe that we're better off without DRM, but I didn't expect someone to walk into our homes and slap us in the face like this. Ugh. Please stop, 熊节 -- David Heinemeier Hansson http://www.loudthinking.com -- Broadcasting Brain http://www.basecamphq.com -- Online project management http://www.backpackit.com -- Personal information manager http://www.rubyonrails.com -- Web-application framework _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
* Dave Thomas (dave-kbbdpT5sCmpWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org) [050922 07:35]:> >I got a soft copy from emule, may you can have a try. Good Luck. > > Sigh. > > Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you can''t trust people. Maybe we should have > put DRM and copy protection on the PDFs. > > This makes me sad.Rightly so. If it''s any consolation, Dave, just knowing that I had a PDF of the Beta Book inspired 2 other people in my office to order the hardcopy when it came out (I think one of them may have even ordered the PDF+hardcopy set). Everybody I see that comes into contact with the book wants a copy. Having my name on the PDF makes it easy for me to say "well, my name''s on it, so why don''t you thumb through my hardcopy?" and then to say, soon thereafter, "hey, gimme my book back -- order your own!" -- and they do. :-) Best, Rick -- http://www.rickbradley.com MUPRN: 93 | reached between the random email haiku | U.S. Justice Department and | nine other states.
> > I still totally believe that we're better off without DRM, but I > didn't expect someone to walk into our homes and slap us in the face > like this. Ugh. > > Please stop, 熊节"Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity" Probably an apt quote here. -- Manuel a veces :) a veces :( pero siempre trabajando duro para Simplelógica: apariencia, experiencia y comunicación en la web. http://simplelogica.net # (+34) 985 22 12 65 ¡Ah! y escribiendo en Logicola: http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
On Sep 22, 2005, at 7:54 AM, Robbie Carlton wrote:> I agree with Derek here. I think the pdfs are great, and that making > them any more awkward would not be good. I think that a certain amount > of piracy is inevitable, but on top of the fact that you could end up > losing more sales from drm as Derek points out, there''s also the > factor that a certain amount of piracy is actually healthy. > I spend more money on music since I''ve started filesharing than I > ever did before. > Also I have a huge library of prohibitively expensive proffessional > audio software, as a result of which I occasionaly spend money on > audio software (if I esp want support/manual/need it now). Had this > library not be available to me I would never have considered learning > to compose music. > And finally, imagine someone who downloads your book, reads it, loves > it (which they obviously will) and needs to have the hardcopy buy > their side at all times, or recommends it to their boss, who goes out > and buys 5 copies. > I think fear of piracy is a throwback to the predigital age, and that > in reality piracy is a vital part of the economy.First, please forgive me for making you the scapegoat, but I have to speak up here. Robbie, no offense to you personally, but this perspective is, IMO, completely wrong. Furthermore, it''s contagious, because it "sounds" right. It''s certainly a valid statement to say that piracy has been at least partly responsible for the increased interest in music, and that as a result, it may have helped the bottom line of recording companies. But it is insane to _suggest_ that piracy benefits the music industry. That''s like saying it''s okay to steal from the rich and give to the jobless poor, because once they have money, they''ll be more likely to want to go work for it. I''ve heard different variations of this rationalization, by the way. "The record industry overcharges for music, anyway. The artists don''t receive much of it, anyway." etc. etc. My response to this is "So?" How does that make it okay to steal the file? I don''t mean to preach, here, but stealing is wrong. Period. If you didn''t buy it, throw it away. If you miss it, go buy it. If it''s not worth what they want for it, don''t buy it. If you "just want to sample it", well that''s what sample chapters are FOR! But don''t try to rationalize stealing it. Okay, if you''re a hurricane victim and need bottled water to survive, then you''re excused. Otherwise, you''re not fooling anybody but yourself. On a side note, my take on DRM is that files should be offered free with an expiration period. ## days (or ## times launched, whichever comes last) after the download, they will require a password (entered once per local source drive) to reopen (or print). I''m sure there are some caveats and technical difficulties for getting this to work, but some form of this would allow the distributers to advertise the product without giving it away.
Doug Hall wrote: > On a side note, my take on DRM is that files should be offered free with> an expiration period. ## days (or ## times launched, whichever comes > last) after the download, they will require a password (entered once per > local source drive) to reopen (or print). I''m sure there are some > caveats and technical difficulties for getting this to work, but some > form of this would allow the distributers to advertise the product > without giving it away.Interesting points all, but I can''t think of a way to make this part work that doesn''t involve phoning home, isn''t trivially breakable, and doesn''t have the potential to break in a way that prevents someone from legitimately accessing something they''ve bought. Anyone smarter''n me got any ideas? -- Alex
> I don''t mean to preach, here, but stealing is wrong. Period. If you > didn''t buy it, throw it away. If you miss it, go buy it. If it''s not > worth what they want for it, don''t buy it. If you "just want to sample > it", well that''s what sample chapters are FOR! But don''t try to > rationalize stealing it. Okay, if you''re a hurricane victim and need > bottled water to survive, then you''re excused. Otherwise, you''re not > fooling anybody but yourself.I dare to say this is a big can of worms / holy war territory and the ensuing discussion can get somewhat long and offtopic for this mailing list (but fascinating nonetheless...) -- Manuel a veces :) a veces :( pero siempre trabajando duro para Simplelógica: apariencia, experiencia y comunicación en la web. http://simplelogica.net # (+34) 985 22 12 65 ¡Ah! y escribiendo en Logicola: http://simplelogica.net/logicola/
Having both the hard copy and the ebook is extremely valuable to me. I don''t really like reading from a screen, because of resolution and other ergonomic factors, ease of manipulation, etc. So, having the hard copy is important to me. OTOH, the ebook can be used on my laptop, where it keeps me from needing to drag around another book. It also makes VERY good use of PDF''s capabilities, providing links to resources in the ebook and on the Internet. The only cavil I have with the Internet links is that they are dependent on connectivity. It might be worthwhile to make the code links point to parts of the ebook, instead (perhaps in the form of an appendix that doesn''t appear in the printed version). -r -- email: rdm-go8te9J4rpw@public.gmane.org; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com - Canta Forda Computer Laboratory http://www.cfcl.com/Meta - The FreeBSD Browser, Meta Project, etc.
I know this will come to bite me in the ass as this thread continues on forever, but... :)> I don''t mean to preach, here, but stealing is wrong. Period. If you > didn''t buy it, throw it away. If you miss it, go buy it. If it''s not > worth what they want for it, don''t buy it. If you "just want to sample > it", well that''s what sample chapters are FOR! But don''t try to > rationalize stealing it. Okay, if you''re a hurricane victim and need > bottled water to survive, then you''re excused. Otherwise, you''re not > fooling anybody but yourself.Stealing is wrong. You''re right. However, the consumer is powerless. They''re bombarded constantly by billions of dollars of research into how to control their purchasing power, and then mark up products by hundreds and hundreds of percents. Yes, stealing is wrong, but a lot of corporations and organizations are equally wrong. The law just doesn''t recognize it. Theft in this manner is perhaps the natural consequence. The trick is to know when to fight and who to fight, and who deserves your hard-earned cash. The daves totally deserve it! That book is _worth_ it. But is a $25 CD worth it when you find out later that only one song is of any use? And it''s put on a medium that, quite frankly is crap (dust affects it, the jewel cases are the worst invention in history, a scratch screws it) and *you''re not allowed to back it up*. Especially when the markup is in the 240% range? And on top of that, you''ve been hit with so much advertising, you''re not very powerful to resist (and this isn''t just tinfoil hat stuff, i know people in marketting and this is their ultimate goal -- they don''t try to hide that)? I don''t know man... theft like this does seem like the only way to fight such measures. "The people" just aren''t powerful enough.> On a side note, my take on DRM is that files should be offered free with > an expiration period. ## days (or ## times launched, whichever comes > last) after the download, they will require a password (entered once per > local source drive) to reopen (or print). I''m sure there are some > caveats and technical difficulties for getting this to work, but some > form of this would allow the distributers to advertise the product > without giving it away.If it''s for 1/5th of the price, i''d agree. But "The Ruby Way" was $1 less for the PDF version and: o couldn''t print it o couldn''t read it on linux o couldn''t read it on my PDA o couldn''t cut and paste from it o couldn''t read it on my work PC (since i can''t install the DRM there) for a buck discount? come on... The trust comes in not screwing the little guy who hasn''t hurt you in any way. I sought out the RoR book. They didn''t sell it to me. Regs, D> _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- Derek Wyatt - C++ / Ruby / Unix Programmer http://derekwyatt.org
On 22/09/05, Doug Hall <doughalldev-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> I''ve heard different variations of this rationalization, by the way.Here''s another :)> "The record industry overcharges for music, anyway. The artists don''t > receive much of it, anyway." etc. etc. My response to this is "So?" How > does that make it okay to steal the file?It''s not a question of Right and Wrong. The point is, all DRM can be worked around. DRMed PDFs can be screenshot, Audio out cables record DRMed audio. It''s a question of effort. If an album costs 15 pounds then you''ll put up with the hassle involved in trawling round p2p networks longer than if it costs 5 pounds. Especially if you don''t have 15 pounds. ITMS see this, and as a result Apples profits are shooting up. The music industry refuses to, and as a consequence we have dozens of expensive and complex DRM mechanisms springing up that don''t make the average ''thiefs'' job any harder, since it only has to be cracked once. It just pisses off the legitimate user, who can''t read the PDF on Linux/his PDA/his GoogleBrain 5000 in 20 years time. Dave made the right call in the personalized PDF case because a) they''re cheap and b) they''re personalized , so everyone can see who''s not playing fair. Investing in a DRM solution would''nt make the theives job any harder, it would just push the production costs up for everyone else.> I don''t mean to preach, here, but stealing is wrong. Period.Blanket statements are always wrong :) -- Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns
On Thu, 2005-09-22 at 12:17 -0400, Derek Wyatt wrote:> If it''s for 1/5th of the price, i''d agree. But "The Ruby Way" was > $1 less for the PDF version and: > > o couldn''t print it > o couldn''t read it on linuxHmm, not having bought The Ruby Way on PDF, I''m curious why not. How did DRM affect this?> o couldn''t read it on my PDA > o couldn''t cut and paste from itYou can copy and paste from a PDF ? :) Obviously, I know it can be done, as I used to do it from a Windows platform, but I''ve tried kpdf, xpdf, and gpdf in Linux, and saw absolutely no way to do this. Was a tad annoying while trying to read AWDWR. Was I overlooking something very obvious? Thanks, Howard
Howard Roberts wrote:> On Thu, 2005-09-22 at 12:17 -0400, Derek Wyatt wrote: > >>If it''s for 1/5th of the price, i''d agree. But "The Ruby Way" was >>$1 less for the PDF version and: >> >> o couldn''t print it >> o couldn''t read it on linux > > Hmm, not having bought The Ruby Way on PDF, I''m curious why not. How did > DRM affect this?The latest version of acroread for linux wouldn''t read it. I''m assuming because it wasn''t DRM enabled.> >> o couldn''t read it on my PDA >> o couldn''t cut and paste from it > > > You can copy and paste from a PDF ? :) > > Obviously, I know it can be done, as I used to do it from a Windows > platform, but I''ve tried kpdf, xpdf, and gpdf in Linux, and saw > absolutely no way to do this. Was a tad annoying while trying to read > AWDWR. Was I overlooking something very obvious?You got me. I''ve been using acroread forever. I haven''t gone open source there. Regs, D> Thanks, > Howard > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- Derek Wyatt - C++ / Ruby / Unix Programmer http://derekwyatt.org
On Sep 22, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Derek Wyatt wrote:> Stealing is wrong. You''re right. However, the consumer is > powerless. They''re bombarded constantly by billions of dollars of > research into how to control their purchasing power, and then mark > up products by hundreds and hundreds of percents.Hmmmm. Then maybe you should become PART of that racket, and provide a good or service yourself, which transfixes an audience and mutates their genetic structure in such a way that they are helpless to resist buying your KOOL AID.> Yes, stealing is wrong, but a lot of corporations and organizations > are equally wrong. The law just doesn''t recognize it. Theft in > this manner is perhaps the natural consequence.So two wrongs DO make a right? Make your mind up. Is it wrong or not?> The trick is to know when to fight and who to fight, and who > deserves your hard-earned cash.Who needs to fight? If it''s not a monopoly or, (in light of recent gas prices) an oligopoly, where''s the rub? I can''t remember the last time McDonald''s force fed me a Big Mac, or for that matter, made me watch their commercials. Your TV DOES have an off button, you know. If it''s not on your remote, then just try pulling the plug that goes from the TV into the wall. ;-)> The daves totally deserve it! That book is _worth_ it. But is a > $25 CD worth it when you find out later that only one song is of any > use? And it''s put on a medium that, quite frankly is crap (dust > affects it, the jewel cases are the worst invention in history, a > scratch screws it) and *you''re not allowed to back it up*. > > Especially when the markup is in the 240% range? And on top of > that, you''ve been hit with so much advertising, you''re not very > powerful to resist (and this isn''t just tinfoil hat stuff, i know > people in marketting and this is their ultimate goal -- they don''t > try to hide that)?Who gives a damn what their markup is? Hell, the higher their markup, the better, I think. All the more motivation for them to write another book that we can benefit from. Look, we live in a capitalistic society and that''s a GOOD thing. All politics aside, if it ain''t worth it to you, you are NOT COMPELLED TO HAVE IT. So don''t bitch about what it costs. JUST DON''T BUY IT! Jeez! If nothing else, there are still many good web sites out and tutorials out there. How do you think the two Daves learned what they know. They didn''t have a Pragmatic Book to learn from, you know.> I don''t know man... theft like this does seem like the only way to > fight such measures. "The people" just aren''t powerful enough. > >> On a side note, my take on DRM is that files should be offered free >> with an expiration period. ## days (or ## times launched, whichever >> comes last) after the download, they will require a password (entered >> once per local source drive) to reopen (or print). I''m sure there are >> some caveats and technical difficulties for getting this to work, but >> some form of this would allow the distributers to advertise the >> product without giving it away. > > If it''s for 1/5th of the price, i''d agree. But "The Ruby Way" was > $1 less for the PDF version and: > > o couldn''t print it > o couldn''t read it on linux > o couldn''t read it on my PDA > o couldn''t cut and paste from it > o couldn''t read it on my work PC (since i can''t > install the DRM there) > > for a buck discount? come on...Just say NO, man. Just say NO!> > The trust comes in not screwing the little guy who hasn''t hurt you > in any way. I sought out the RoR book. They didn''t sell it to me.So, it''s NOT okay for little guys to get big? As soon as they''re "rich", it''s okay to steal from them? Is this what you''re saying to me? Doug
I agree that we should probably truncate this discussion here. I just want to point out that people like Bruce Eckels have found that releasing electronic versions of their books (like his excellent Thinking in Java) actually significantly *increased* sales. That seems to be a more enlightened view. Mike Pence
Ron DiFrango wrote:> Also, overstock.com has it as well. > > RonFrom SOFIA to Rails, huh? LOL Also, looks like CapOne to CapTech. How are you doing these days? I guess I should ask if you remember me at all... Cheers, Jim
On Sep 22, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Derek Wyatt wrote:> Stealing is wrong. You''re right. However, the consumer is > powerless. They''re bombarded constantly by billions of dollars of > research into how to control their purchasing power, and then mark > up products by hundreds and hundreds of percents.The last time I spent billions of dollars, it certainly wasn''t on researching how to control consumers.> Yes, stealing is wrong, but a lot of corporations and organizations > are equally wrong. The law just doesn''t recognize it. Theft in > this manner is perhaps the natural consequence.I think the point here is: once you allow this kind of thinking to say "it''s OK to rip off record companies, or movies studios, or..." then you''re crossed the line and everything becomes fair game. We then see a culture that feels comfortable of stealing from two guys trying to make a living selling books. Protest against large companies by not buying their products, and by supporting folks who find ways of doing the same thing better and cheaper. Buy indie music, and self-distributed music. But don''t do it by stealing--you just degrade the overall values of the community. And if folks continue to think its OK to steal, soon there won''t be any indie music, self-published books, or low-budget movies. Only the companies with big pockets will survive. That seems counter to the original plan. Dave
On Sep 22, 2005, at 4:15 PM, Dave Thomas wrote:> > I think the point here is: once you allow this kind of thinking to > say "it''s OK to rip off record companies, or movies studios, or..." > then you''re crossed the line and everything becomes fair game. We > then see a culture that feels comfortable of stealing from two guys > trying to make a living selling books. > > Protest against large companies by not buying their products, and > by supporting folks who find ways of doing the same thing better > and cheaper. Buy indie music, and self-distributed music. But don''t > do it by stealing--you just degrade the overall values of the > community. And if folks continue to think its OK to steal, soon > there won''t be any indie music, self-published books, or low-budget > movies. Only the companies with big pockets will survive. > > That seems counter to the original plan. >(This thread has been making my blood boil. This is hopefully a summary of the things I''ve been meaning to say all day.) As a developer and an indie musical artist, I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree. Let''s leave the analysis of the benefits and drawbacks of piracy to the economists... when it gets down to the rubber-meets-the-road ethics, ripping off this book (or that CD, or whatever) is taking money away from those who most deserve it. What it comes down to (this was my mindset back when I ripped off music and software) is a situational ethic of justification--any shaky argument looks good if it means I don''t have to pay for the stuff I want. I do believe that the ready availability of the PDF book through illicit means is a testament to the explosive growth of Rails, though. Piracy seems to scale somewhat linearly with the popularity / growth of an interest. I thought it was humorous (if insensitive) that someone so openly advocated it. It''s kind of like being approached at a concert and being asked to sign a CD-R copy of your own music :-) So Dave and David, don''t take it too personally. I''m not sure whether to ascribe it to incompetence or malice. Probably the former. You''ve created a great book and grown a community, and you have the gratitude and respect of the hundreds of us who are also making a living off of Rails. Thank you! -- Brad Ediger 866-EDIGERS
I''m saying goodnight now, because I don''t want to keep pissing people, and I think this has got to the end of the useful discussion , at least as far as my contribution goes. I have to bite my tongue or we''ll just go on and on. But once again, if I thought for a second I was hurting people like the two daves by my actions, I wouldn''t be doing it. regards everyone robbie On 9/22/05, Brad Ediger <brad-sod+mMc99o6+XT7JhA+gdA@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > On Sep 22, 2005, at 4:15 PM, Dave Thomas wrote: > > > > > I think the point here is: once you allow this kind of thinking to > > say "it''s OK to rip off record companies, or movies studios, or..." > > then you''re crossed the line and everything becomes fair game. We > > then see a culture that feels comfortable of stealing from two guys > > trying to make a living selling books. > > > > Protest against large companies by not buying their products, and > > by supporting folks who find ways of doing the same thing better > > and cheaper. Buy indie music, and self-distributed music. But don''t > > do it by stealing--you just degrade the overall values of the > > community. And if folks continue to think its OK to steal, soon > > there won''t be any indie music, self-published books, or low-budget > > movies. Only the companies with big pockets will survive. > > > > That seems counter to the original plan. > > > > (This thread has been making my blood boil. This is hopefully a > summary of the things I''ve been meaning to say all day.) > > As a developer and an indie musical artist, I have to say that I > wholeheartedly agree. Let''s leave the analysis of the benefits and > drawbacks of piracy to the economists... when it gets down to the > rubber-meets-the-road ethics, ripping off this book (or that CD, or > whatever) is taking money away from those who most deserve it. What > it comes down to (this was my mindset back when I ripped off music > and software) is a situational ethic of justification--any shaky > argument looks good if it means I don''t have to pay for the stuff I > want. > > I do believe that the ready availability of the PDF book through > illicit means is a testament to the explosive growth of Rails, > though. Piracy seems to scale somewhat linearly with the popularity / > growth of an interest. I thought it was humorous (if insensitive) > that someone so openly advocated it. It''s kind of like being > approached at a concert and being asked to sign a CD-R copy of your > own music :-) > > So Dave and David, don''t take it too personally. I''m not sure whether > to ascribe it to incompetence or malice. Probably the former. You''ve > created a great book and grown a community, and you have the > gratitude and respect of the hundreds of us who are also making a > living off of Rails. Thank you! > > -- > Brad Ediger > 866-EDIGERS > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >_______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Howard Roberts wrote:> On Thu, 2005-09-22 at 12:17 -0400, Derek Wyatt wrote: >> o couldn''t cut and paste from it > > You can copy and paste from a PDF ? :) > > Obviously, I know it can be done, as I used to do it from a Windows > platform, but I''ve tried kpdf, xpdf, and gpdf in Linux, and saw > absolutely no way to do this. Was a tad annoying while trying to read > AWDWR. Was I overlooking something very obvious?Last time I needed to copy and paste from a PDF I was using xpdf and I just drag-highlighted the text (placing the text into one[0] of the X cut/paste buffers) I was interested in then middle clicked where I wanted it to go. Will. [0] Why X seems to have two independent cut/paste buffers that work differently from one another I don''t know, but it seems that this is the case.
The book publisher Baen has noticed the same thing as well. Full ebook texts in html, pdf, and other ebook formats are available from http://www.baen.com/library/. The openning page has a description about how the Free Library came about and the benefits the authors and the publishers have found. Its kinda like how free copies of the Pickaxe 1 book led me to the Pragmatic Programmers site where I have now purchased Pickaxe 2 (hard and soft) and the Rails book (hard and soft) and I an eyeing a couple more books. In the future if I have the choice between 2 books covering the same material and 1 or them is from Pragmatic Programmers I am going there first because for a few more $$ more I can get a pdf version, and on top of that the pdf version is almost instantly available. - Michael On 9/22/05, Mike Pence <mike.pence-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> I agree that we should probably truncate this discussion here. I just > want to point out that people like Bruce Eckels have found that > releasing electronic versions of their books (like his excellent > Thinking in Java) actually significantly *increased* sales. That seems > to be a more enlightened view. > > Mike Pence > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >
On Fri, 2005-09-23 at 14:16 +0100, will wrote:> Last time I needed to copy and paste from a PDF I was using xpdf and I > just drag-highlighted the text (placing the text into one[0] of the X > cut/paste buffers) I was interested in then middle clicked where I > wanted it to go. > > Will.Thanks much Will! Middle-click worked like a champ. xpdf just became my viewer of choice :)
Dave (and David), I just want to thank you for releasing your book without any DRM. I preordered both PDF and dead tree -- they are great. I appreciate being treated like a valued customer and not a thief. There are theives in the world, and that is a shame, but I am your customer and I have recommend your books without reservation since the first time I read Pragmatic Programmers. I agree recommending p2p as a way to get your book on this list is in poor taste, and that it is stealing; however, (and I am no expert) I doubt you will loose too many sales -- if I were a poor student or living in 3rd world country and stole your book, using whatever rationalizations I am sure would easily spring to mind in these circumstances -- if/when I was able I would feel compelled to purchase the book as it is a true value well worth its purchase price. I hope anyone who does steal their book out of need or perhaps just as a "demo" to ascertain its true value remembers it was the labor of people just like you, and you are stealing their work if you find it valuable (which it is) -- purchase it when you can. Patrick
On Sep 22, 2005, at 5:44 AM, George Hotelling wrote:> I got a copy of the PDF from a friend. I liked it so much that I > spent the money to get one with my own name at the bottom. I > probably wouldn''t be working with RoR today if there had been DRM > on the PDF.I was so impressed with the way there wasn''t DRM on the PDF that I bought another two copies for my small workgroup. (We only have one physical copy of the book, though)