Hello, I am an infant in the world of writing Web Applications. I have only a little programming background. When I took up this new job of writing applications for the web, I started looking for what product or technology I would need to master to ease my tasks to the most extent. After searching on the net and talking to my friends, I learnt that ColdFusion is the exact thing for the purpose and can make a web developer''s work a breeze. I am told their latest release ver 7 was a major hit too. Then I stubmbled on Ruby on Rails on the net. On further exploration, this seemed to be the latest gadget for rapid web application development gaining popularity at a very high rate. The tutorial videos and reviews looked remarkably impressive. Now I am confused :-( Could you guys please give your thoughts and let me know when RoR scores over CF and where CF trumps RoR. This would help me make the decision between the two. RoR being free and CF costing money is not a problem as my company would buy the software for me. I would request you all to contribute as it would help shape my decision and my life too. Many Many Thanks, Gunchi --------------------------------- Check out Yahoo! India Rakhi Special for Rakhi shopping, contests and lots more. http://in.promos.yahoo.com/rakhi/index.html _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Aman wrote:> Could you guys please give your thoughts and let me know when RoR scores > over CF and where CF trumps RoR.Hi Aman, start here: http://www.michaelbuffington.com/archives/2005/08/coldfusion_vs_r.html Also check his archives. Michael has been developing in CF for ten years and now made the switch to RoR. Sascha
On Fri, 2005-08-26 at 14:37 +0100, Aman wrote:> Hello, > > I am an infant in the world of writing Web Applications. I have only a > little programming background. > > When I took up this new job of writing applications for the web, I > started looking for what product or technology I would need to master > to ease my tasks to the most extent. > > After searching on the net and talking to my friends, I learnt that > ColdFusion is the exact thing for the purpose and can make a web > developer''s work a breeze. I am told their latest release ver 7 was a > major hit too. >That''s what their marketing department has been saying for several years. ;-)> Then I stubmbled on Ruby on Rails on the net. On further exploration, > this seemed to be the latest gadget for rapid web application > development gaining popularity at a very high rate. The tutorial > videos and reviews looked remarkably impressive. > > Now I am confused :-( > > Could you guys please give your thoughts and let me know when RoR > scores over CF and where CF trumps RoR. >Open source... all the benefits of open source should be pretty obvious> This would help me make the decision between the two. > > RoR being free and CF costing money is not a problem as my company > would buy the software for me. > > I would request you all to contribute as it would help shape my > decision and my life too. >A quick google search of ''ruby rails versus cold fusion'' lead me to this: http://www.michaelbuffington.com/archives/2005/08/coldfusion_vs_r.html -- /****************************************************** * Robby Russell, Owner.Developer.Geek * PLANET ARGON, Open Source Solutions & Web Hosting * Portland, Oregon | p: 503.351.4730 | f: 815.642.4068 * www.planetargon.com | www.robbyonrails.com *******************************************************/
Robby Russell wrote:>Open source... all the benefits of open source should be pretty obvious. > >Yes, they are ... as are the risks. All told, for me, the benefits outweigh the risks at the home / small business level. It''s not at all clear that they do in the original poster''s "my company would buy the software for me" environment.>>RoR being free and CF costing money is not a problem as my company >>would buy the software for me. >> >>If this is a corporate decision, you aren''t, unless it''s a one-person corporation, going to be able to "run what you want to run" on the company''s dime. I''ve spent most of my career in largeish corporate environments, and I''ve had that rammed at me more times than I care to mention. There are "sneak paths", of course, as noted in another thread not too long ago. So, if you do choose Ruby on Rails over ColdFusion, make sure to get all your ducks (typing or not :) ) in a row, make sure you understand *all* the benefits and *all* the risks. And if, in the end, the powers that be and pointy haired bosses go with ColdFusion, be prepared to support the decision. -- M. Edward (Ed) Borasky http://www.borasky-research.net/ http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/ http://pdxneurosemantics.com http://pdx-sales-coach.com http://algocompsynth.com
Aman, that''s a very hard comparison to make. CF is a language, RoR is a framework. If you''re not as experienced with programming concepts, I believe CF may be easier for you. It can also be detrimental as you can easily fall into bad practices like intermixing queries inside of templates, etc. That said, you can also do some elegant solutions in CF too. It''s really up to the programmer. As for RoR, I''ve just been dabbling in it so far and I really feel comfortable with it. There are some things that I''m not sure how to handle in it, such as application and server level variables. These scopes, available in CF, can have some good uses as in the past, if I have a long running query that is applicable across all users of an application, I can ''cache'' this in an application scoped variable. I''ve done introspection of the database schema as RoR does, but it''s not as elegant as RoR''s implementation and I''m pretty sure it can''t be. Bottom line to me so far is both are very very capable. In RoR you''re going to write less code, but you''ll also have to be smarter about the code you write. While ruby is easy to read, it''s not as explicit as CF. CF on the other hand is going to require a lot more code to write. You''re also not limited to one framework, and there are many available for CF and there''s where a better comparison would be, try out Fusebox 4.1 or Model-glue on CF, then compare it to RoR. On 8/26/05, Aman <cuddlygunchi-/E1597aS9LQxFYw1CcD5bw@public.gmane.org> wrote:> Hello, > > I am an infant in the world of writing Web Applications. I have only a > little programming background. > > When I took up this new job of writing applications for the web, I started > looking for what product or technology I would need to master to ease my > tasks to the most extent. > > After searching on the net and talking to my friends, I learnt that > ColdFusion is the exact thing for the purpose and can make a web developer''s > work a breeze. I am told their latest release ver 7 was a major hit too. > > Then I stubmbled on Ruby on Rails on the net. On further exploration, this > seemed to be the latest gadget for rapid web application development gaining > popularity at a very high rate. The tutorial videos and reviews looked > remarkably impressive. > > Now I am confused :-( > > Could you guys please give your thoughts and let me know when RoR scores > over CF and where CF trumps RoR. > > This would help me make the decision between the two. > > RoR being free and CF costing money is not a problem as my company would buy > the software for me. > > I would request you all to contribute as it would help shape my decision and > my life too. > > Many Many Thanks, > Gunchi > > ________________________________ > Check out Yahoo! India Rakhi Special for Rakhi shopping, contests and lots > more. > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/rakhi/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > >-- Marlon "Now watch what you say or they''ll be calling you a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal. "
Open source is definitely a benefit, as I had a problem with the sqlserver adapter and was able to fix the code myself. This isn''t something possible with CF. On the flip side, being that it''s open source, there doesn''t seem to be a lot of support for the Win32 platform other than a development platform. Macromedia''s got a big enough budget that they can provide a hook into most web servers. The best I''ve been able to do with RoR is to run webrick in production mode as a service. Even then, without more research, I''ve not been able to get it to run on port 80 or 8080 on Win2k3 server. To me, this a biggie. My company is MS based with the one exception of CF. Until installing RoR is as easy as CF, it''s going to be an uphill battle for me at work. Luckily I have a bunch of personal projects that I can use RoR for. On 8/26/05, Robby Russell <robby-/Lcn8Y7Ot69QmPsQ1CNsNQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > Could you guys please give your thoughts and let me know when RoR > > scores over CF and where CF trumps RoR. > > > > Open source... all the benefits of open source should be pretty obvious > > > This would help me make the decision between the two. > > > > RoR being free and CF costing money is not a problem as my company > > would buy the software for me. > > > > I would request you all to contribute as it would help shape my > > decision and my life too. > > > > A quick google search of ''ruby rails versus cold fusion'' lead me to > this: > > http://www.michaelbuffington.com/archives/2005/08/coldfusion_vs_r.html > > > > > -- > /****************************************************** > * Robby Russell, Owner.Developer.Geek > * PLANET ARGON, Open Source Solutions & Web Hosting > * Portland, Oregon | p: 503.351.4730 | f: 815.642.4068 > * www.planetargon.com | www.robbyonrails.com > *******************************************************/ > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- Marlon "Now watch what you say or they''ll be calling you a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal. "
Hello Aman, I''ll chime in here as well since I have been a CF developer for about 9 years and have made the jump over to RoR now as well (heck Michael and I sat down in Portland just to talk about that). In any event, it''s always about the right tool for the right job. I''ve made the switch because open source was important to me first and foremost. I don''t have any ill-will or anything negative to say about CF on any level, it''s served me more than well over the course of my career. Rails takes care of lots of things for you that you''ll have to do with CF. I wouldn''t put it past the CF community to come up with their own CF on Rails in due time. There are lots of other great frameworks that exist for CF and I can say that the hardest part of the transition for me has been dealing with "convention over configuration" since I built a life around configuration in the CF world. I''ve also found that there''s so much spirit in the Rails community and that''s a wonderful thing. For as long as I''ve been doing CF, it sometimes feels like people just mostly use it, but the lust has worn down somewhat. Seeing people move to Rails is lighting a fire under many CF people though. So to summarize, both have active communities, both have great features/frameworks. Choose based on what you need to do, nothing else. There''s tons in CF that are integrated, tested and deployed which we don''t have yet in Rails so if those things are requirements, you might want to go with your first instinct. Best regards, Greg Aman wrote:> Hello, > > I am an infant in the world of writing Web Applications. I have only a > little programming background. > > When I took up this new job of writing applications for the web, I > started looking for what product or technology I would need to master > to ease my tasks to the most extent. > > After searching on the net and talking to my friends, I learnt that > ColdFusion is the exact thing for the purpose and can make a web > developer''s work a breeze. I am told their latest release ver 7 was a > major hit too. > > Then I stubmbled on Ruby on Rails on the net. On further exploration, > this seemed to be the latest gadget for rapid web application > development gaining popularity at a very high rate. The tutorial > videos and reviews looked remarkably impressive. > > Now I am confused :-( > > Could you guys please give your thoughts and let me know when RoR > scores over CF and where CF trumps RoR. > > This would help me make the decision between the two. > > RoR being free and CF costing money is not a problem as my company > would buy the software for me. > > I would request you all to contribute as it would help shape my > decision and my life too. > > Many Many Thanks, > Gunchi > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out Yahoo! India Rakhi Special for Rakhi shopping, contests and > lots more. > http://in.promos.yahoo.com/rakhi/index.html > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Rails mailing list >Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org >http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > >_______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
* M. Edward (Ed) Borasky [2005-08-26 10:51]:> If this is a corporate decision, you aren''t, unless it''s a one-person > corporation, going to be able to "run what you want to run" on the > company''s dime. I''ve spent most of my career in largeish corporate > environments, and I''ve had that rammed at me more times than I care toI''ll second Ed''s points here -- one area lots of people saying "use Rails!" don''t cover much is the sysadmin part of it. Apache is highly visible, so that''s not often a hard sell, but the reliance on FastCGI, which is somewhat dormant and (relatively) obscure is a stumbler for many conservative admins. And lighttpd is probably even harder to get through the door. There''s just much more easily available info for many other server setups out there (cf, tomcat, php, etc.) - doesn''t make them better - but it''s a reasonable factor in decisions. For example, I''m far from clear what the deal is with Apache2 and mod_fastcgi. Mostly based on the frighteningly-worded caveats in the ''Agile Rails'' book. I know many here are BSD fans, but lots of environments run Linux, and many distros are shipping with Apache2 now. So this cloudiness on this topic is a reasonable cause for concern for many people I think. Anyone up on the ap2/fcgi situation who could provide some advice/info/updates? -- ________________________________ toddgrimason*todd[ at ]slack.net
First of all, many thanks to Sacha, Robby and Ed for their response. Much appreciated! Ed wrote:> And if, in the end, the powers that be> and pointy haired bosses go with ColdFusion, be prepared to support the> decision.Lol how did you know my boss is pointy haired...this is not a stake-out is it ;) Actually, surprising as it may seem, I have been given a free hand for the tool I want to choose and i want to make sure I make the right decision that would enable me to create web apps with minimum pain to me and lots of gain to my business. Sacha and Robby both pointed me to: http://www.michaelbuffington.com/archives/2005/08/coldfusion_vs_r.html It was definitely a good read but did not present enough data that could easily point to one choice being more favorable than the other. He looked evenly poised and at times when he swayed in favor of RoR, there would be a comment on his blog trying to highlight some analogous advantage in CF. So I was hoping that I could have the input straight from you, my peers, the developers. You have obviously made a choice and I''m sure at a point you must have been in a dilemma similar to mine. So the points you considered for making the decision, the features that pulled you to RoR, the goodies that potentially dragged you back to CF...this would be very helpful to me in making the decision that would be *right* for me. Many Thanks! Aman --------------------------------- Check out Yahoo! India Rakhi Special for Rakhi shopping, contests and lots more. http://in.promos.yahoo.com/rakhi/index.html _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
First of all, many thanks to Sacha, Robby and Ed for their response. Much appreciated! Ed wrote:> And if, in the end, the powers that be> and pointy haired bosses go with ColdFusion, be prepared to support the> decision.Lol how did you know my boss is pointy haired...this is not a stake-out is it ;) Actually, surprising as it may seem, I have been given a free hand for the tool I want to choose and i want to make sure I make the right decision that would enable me to create web apps with minimum pain to me and lots of gain to my business. Sacha and Robby both pointed me to: http://www.michaelbuffington.com/archives/2005/08/coldfusion_vs_r.html It was definitely a good read but did not present enough data that could easily point to one choice being more favorable than the other. He looked evenly poised and at times when he swayed in favor of RoR, there would be a comment on his blog trying to highlight some analogous advantage in CF. So I was hoping that I could have the input straight from you, my peers, the developers. You have obviously made a choice and I''m sure at a point you must have been in a dilemma similar to mine. So the points you considered for making the decision, the features that pulled you to RoR, the goodies that potentially dragged you back to CF...this would be very helpful to me in making the decision that would be *right* for me. Many Thanks! Aman --------------------------------- Check out Yahoo! India Rakhi Special for Rakhi shopping, contests and lots more. http://in.promos.yahoo.com/rakhi/index.html --------------------------------- Check out Yahoo! India Rakhi Special for Rakhi shopping, contests and lots more. http://in.promos.yahoo.com/rakhi/index.html _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Hi All, I have a call like this in list.rhtml <%= link_to_remote("download selected", :update => nil, :loading => "Element.show(''download_spinner'')", :complete => "Element.hide(''download_spinner'')", :url => { :action => :download }) %> and in my controller.rb, I do the action for download as def download # to add the logic of zipping the files in the folder. zipFilePath = ''public/downloads/document.zip" send_file zipFilePath,:disposition => ''attachment'',:type => ''application/zip'' end But, the problem is, I do not get the save as dialog, back, I want the download_spinner, bcos, I want the give the indication tot he user that something is happening(in this case zipping). Let me know if you have any other ways to do this. Regards Gnan
> I am an infant in the world of writing Web Applications. I have only alittle programming background. [snip]> Could you guys please give your thoughts and let me know when RoRscores over CF and where CF trumps RoR. I think the link to Michael''s blog is a good read. But as someone with a similar perspective as you -- little programming background -- here''s my personal thoughts. Aside from what your requirements are for building web sites and what you ultimately want to do, in terms of just getting a site up, ColdFusion is a powerful language to build dynamic web sites. I also found it to be very newbie-friendly. I came in with zero programming experience, took a three-day ColdFusion class and was up and running the next day. The thing is, although that made me a web developer, it didn''t make me a very good programmer. As you''ve seen, Rails is also a powerful way to build web apps. IMO, however, it''s not for newbies. There are two things you must understand before using Rails that you don''t necessarily need to know with CF: 1) Object-oriented programming 2) Model-View-Controller framework In the end, both with get the job done. But again, choosing between CF or Perl or Java or whatever, really depends on your requirements and what you want to do. However, I think if you invest the time in learning Ruby and Rails, you are going to be better off in the long run. By the way, if you haven''t already, you might want to inquire with a ColdFusion email list, too. Y''know, just for balance and perspective.
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005, Aman wrote:> When I took up this new job of writing applications for the web, I > started looking for what product or technology I would need to master to > ease my tasks to the most extent.What you''ve learned is that last year''s answer may not be next year''s answer. So far, I''m averaging developing for the web in one new language per year (8 so far). Welcome to the wonderful world of programming. -- _Deirdre web / blog: http://deirdre.net/ yarn: http://fuzzyorange.com cat''s blog: http://fuzzyorange.com/vsd/ "Memes are a hoax! Pass it on!"
Brian V. Hughes
2005-Aug-26 19:10 UTC
Re: Deploying Rails on Apache2/mod_fastcgi [was: Comparison between CF and RoR]
Todd Grimason wrote:> For example, I''m far from clear what the deal is with Apache2 and > mod_fastcgi. Mostly based on the frighteningly-worded caveats in the > ''Agile Rails'' book. I know many here are BSD fans, but lots of > environments run Linux, and many distros are shipping with Apache2 now. > So this cloudiness on this topic is a reasonable cause for concern for > many people I think. > > Anyone up on the ap2/fcgi situation who could provide some > advice/info/updates?I would be interested in any info/tips on this, as well. I''ve got a Rails app that''s going to be deployed in the next few weeks, and Apache 2 is part of my deployment platform: Mac OS X 10.3.9, Server Logistics Complete Apache 2. I''ve done some reading on the Wiki, but the Server Logistics URL that is referenced on one of the pages is a dead link... -Brian
> ...this would be very helpful to me in making the decision that wouldbe *right* for me. I think more information about your programming background and what kind of web apps you plan to build would be helpful, in terms of making the *right* decision. Deciding on which technology to use to build a web site is not really a black-and-white thing. As others have told you, it''s highly dependent on your needs... i.e. Right Tool for the Job, and your skills and how you want to develop them. So, here''s some questions for you: * Are you familiar with object-oriented programming concepts? * Are you familiar with the MVC framework? * What''s your planned production environment going to be? * Do you need to integrate legacy apps/data? * And very importantly, how do you feel about pluralization of table names? OK, the last one''s a joke... sorry, couldn''t restrain myself. Because, really, in the end either CF or RoR will do the job. But, what''s right for me or DHH or Sacha for one particular case does not necessarily mean it''s right for you and your business needs. To help you evaluate, I think we need more specific info.
> > > So the points you considered for making the decision, the features > that pulled you to RoR, the goodies that potentially dragged you back > to CF...this would be very helpful to me in making the decision that > would be *right* for me. >I think for many the decision was made because RoR has very clever pluralization rules.
I can try to shed a little light on the experiences we had with FastCGI on Apache2 when we first launched 43 Things. We would routinely see crashes caused by a number of different reasons, such as: - HEAD requests from crawlers would crash Rails. - "get" requests (notice the lowercase GET) from IE 5.5 would crash Rails - the ruby FCGI module didn''t handle SIGPIPE signals properly. - the ruby FCGI module didn''t raise exceptions properly - the ruby FCGI module had several memory leaks. This was made even worse because the Apache FastCGI process manager had trouble logging meaningful errors for the failures. Once we downgraded to Apache 1.3, the better diagnostics made it easier to track down problems. Keep in mind that we were very early adopters of Rails and went into production with FastCGI even before DHH and 37 Signals switched to FastCGI. There were a number of bugs in Rails as well as the native FastCGI Ruby module that were all shaken out and fixed many, many months ago. So, using FastCGI on Apache2 might not be as bad now. But we are happy with Apache 1.3 and haven''t felt the need to give Apache2 another try. Even with Apache 1.3, FastCGI doesn''t work flawlessly. Every now and then, a Rails process will not shut down properly when requested and will hang waiting for a new request. We have a simple cron that runs periodically to kill these orphaned processes to free up memory and database connections. -Bob. On Aug 26, 2005, at 8:31 AM, Todd Grimason wrote:> For example, I''m far from clear what the deal is with Apache2 and > mod_fastcgi. Mostly based on the frighteningly-worded caveats in the > ''Agile Rails'' book. I know many here are BSD fans, but lots of > environments run Linux, and many distros are shipping with Apache2 > now. > So this cloudiness on this topic is a reasonable cause for concern for > many people I think. > > Anyone up on the ap2/fcgi situation who could provide some > advice/info/updates?_______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Aman, personally i would recommend trying them out. depending on what your time schedule looks like, at work and at home, download rails, and the develeloper version of CF and play around with both of them, follow basic tutorials, read articles pertaining to each language[/framework]. letting everyone else decide for you just would not be the "my life" kind of way to do things. personally id be very shaky on taking the time with a Macromedia product, as they are still in motion for being bought out by Adobe, and may never know the fate of ColdFusion. I have never used coldfusion but have seen examples, as well i will not make an oppinion of how it is. as well id be careful asking (probably both) mailing list[s] which is better. you will usually get a lot of biased answers from people that havent even looked at the other for 2.3 seconds. On 8/26/05, Marlon Moyer <marlon.moyer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> Open source is definitely a benefit, as I had a problem with the > sqlserver adapter and was able to fix the code myself. This isn''t > something possible with CF. > > On the flip side, being that it''s open source, there doesn''t seem to > be a lot of support for the Win32 platform other than a development > platform. Macromedia''s got a big enough budget that they can provide > a hook into most web servers. The best I''ve been able to do with RoR > is to run webrick in production mode as a service. Even then, without > more research, I''ve not been able to get it to run on port 80 or 8080 > on Win2k3 server. > > To me, this a biggie. My company is MS based with the one exception > of CF. Until installing RoR is as easy as CF, it''s going to be an > uphill battle for me at work. Luckily I have a bunch of personal > projects that I can use RoR for. > > > On 8/26/05, Robby Russell <robby-/Lcn8Y7Ot69QmPsQ1CNsNQ@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > > Could you guys please give your thoughts and let me know when RoR > > > scores over CF and where CF trumps RoR. > > > > > > > Open source... all the benefits of open source should be pretty obvious > > > > > This would help me make the decision between the two. > > > > > > RoR being free and CF costing money is not a problem as my company > > > would buy the software for me. > > > > > > I would request you all to contribute as it would help shape my > > > decision and my life too. > > > > > > > A quick google search of ''ruby rails versus cold fusion'' lead me to > > this: > > > > http://www.michaelbuffington.com/archives/2005/08/coldfusion_vs_r.html > > > > > > > > > > -- > > /****************************************************** > > * Robby Russell, Owner.Developer.Geek > > * PLANET ARGON, Open Source Solutions & Web Hosting > > * Portland, Oregon | p: 503.351.4730 | f: 815.642.4068 > > * www.planetargon.com | www.robbyonrails.com > > *******************************************************/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > > -- > Marlon > > "Now watch what you say or they''ll be calling you a radical, > liberal, fanatical, criminal. " > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- Zachery Hostens <zacheryph-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
I been hacking ColdFusion for the last 7 years. It has been a serious love/hate relationship. CF allowed me to prototype apps very quickly, but maintenance quickly becomes a nightmare. Once I found Rails, I had found what I was searching for -- for years, and I don''t plan on using Coldfusion every again. Here''s the deal: after you''ve been knocking around with web apps for years as a general web developer, you start to recognize patterns. "Wait a sec, I''ve done this before. Time to copy-and-paste!" You need ways to create forms, ways to validate form fields, ways to get stuff into a database, ways to update stuff in the database, ways to display stuff in the database. The first time you do this type of thing it''s interesting... the 100th or 500th time -- it starts to feel like a waste of time. Instead of doing interesting programming -- you feel like a monkey at a keyboard, repeating yourself ad naseum. So why can''t you build a similar framework in CF? You can -- for instance, I created my own model layer to try to abstract database ''schtuff in CF. Any time a client would request a new field be added to the database, I would have to alter the appropriate forms, but then I would need to go through my model layer and make code changes in at least 5 areas of the file. Abstracting back the model layer was great, I could do powerful things within my code, like loading an object, changing a property and saving it back -- without any SQL. Woot! In Rails, I can add a form field, pop a new field in the database and the magic makes the rest "just work". Rails was designed to eliminate good chunks of this repeatable code. It gives you tremendous power -- but at a cost: there is lots of magical stuff happening, Ruby can be a complicated language, and without years of hacking web apps, you might easily get lost with you run up against general GET and POST stuff that web devs are familiar with. I have always sold new developers on ColdFusion. It gets you started fast. You see the fruits of your labor quickly. Changes are fast, the tags are easy to understand (you only really need to learn CFQUERY and CFOUTPUT to get started). I recommend building version 1.0 of your app in Coldfusion. After a month or two of fusing, consider seeing if you can pick up Rails. All too often, people are able to rebuild apps in days with Rails, because they understand the domain model. Start with Coldfusion, cut your chops on rapid web development -- and when you start to see lots of repetition in your code, pick up the Rails book! :) Ben
On 26-aug-2005, at 17:16, Gregory Narain wrote:> I wouldn''t put it past the CF community to come up with their own > CF on Rails in due time.It''s hard to compare languages, but the MVC methodology transcends that. CF had MVC years ago: Fusebox. And no, it''s not the same, nor will it ever be in any language. -- Regards, Charles.
* Robert Cottrell [2005-08-27 00:42]:> > I can try to shed a little light on the experiences we had with > FastCGI on Apache2 when we first launched 43 Things.> [...]> So, using FastCGI on Apache2 might not be as bad now. But we are > happy with Apache 1.3 and haven''t felt the need to give Apache2 > another try. > > Even with Apache 1.3, FastCGI doesn''t work flawlessly. Every now and > then, a Rails process will not shut down properly when requested and > will hang waiting for a new request. We have a simple cron that runs > periodically to kill these orphaned processes to free up memory and > database connections.Big thanks for the info! So I''m wondering, are there any concerted efforts around getting FCGI "up to snuff" or is it considered Good Enough (TM) by everyone using it in production so far? Or is everyone holding out to use lighttpd someday? Zed''s SCGI? The replacement fastcgid being developed by that Chinese site (can''t remember name)? It just seems odd that something as complete and polished as Rails is on the (relatively) flaky foundation of FastCGI. And that FCGI is kinda stuck at apache1. Any other thoughts/info on this? Is this a non-issue for everyone else and I''m seeing ghosts? -- ________________________________ toddgrimason*todd[ at ]slack.net
Hello, On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:10 AM, Marlon Moyer wrote:> Open source is definitely a benefit, as I had a problem with the > sqlserver adapter and was able to fix the code myself. This isn''t > something possible with CF. > > On the flip side, being that it''s open source, there doesn''t seem to > be a lot of support for the Win32 platform other than a development > platform. Macromedia''s got a big enough budget that they can provide > a hook into most web servers. The best I''ve been able to do with RoR > is to run webrick in production mode as a service. Even then, without > more research, I''ve not been able to get it to run on port 80 or 8080 > on Win2k3 server. > > To me, this a biggie. My company is MS based with the one exception > of CF. Until installing RoR is as easy as CF, it''s going to be an > uphill battle for me at work. Luckily I have a bunch of personal > projects that I can use RoR for.ColdFusion is a terrible (IMHO) language amazingly well adapted to the web. I am working to bring Ruby up to speed with my project "ruby-web". Rails does a lot of work with errors, and logging, I think a better Ruby web layer could help shoulder the load. I hope to make Ruby as easy to install as ColdFusion. Also vaguely on topic, this project adds support for loading ColdFusion-style "application.rb" files. I should have a release, with a windows installer to IIS, by mid September. Rails support should follow. If you are interested, please check out http://www.ruby-web.org. Btw, let me know (offlist) if you considered this post to be off-topic for the Rails discussion list. Cheers, Patrick