Hi, I understand that this might be off topic, but it''s still rails related. I have a meeting tomorrow with a manager about a database front end project. He want to use jdbc, but for a change I would like to use rails. What do you think could convince him that Rails is a viable choice? (I don''t know much about the project, but it is small: 5 weeks from design to delivery, 3 users or less, no authentification... this will replace a "ms access" tool) Regards, Nicolas _______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
If you know Rails at all yet, see if you could code up a working prototype by then and show it to him. On 8/21/05, Nicolas Buet <nicolas.buet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > Hi, > > I understand that this might be off topic, but it''s still rails related. I > have a meeting tomorrow with a manager about a database front end project. > He want to use jdbc, but for a change I would like to use rails. What do you > think could convince him that Rails is a viable choice? > > (I don''t know much about the project, but it is small: 5 weeks from design > to delivery, 3 users or less, no authentification... this will replace a "ms > access" tool) > > Regards, > > Nicolas > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > >
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I would bring a laptop to the meeting, loaded with ruby, rails and mysql. While you''re all talking, pay attention to what they want to do. While someone else takes minutes, you do implementation. If i were your manager, i''d notice three things: 1) You''re paying attention and giving ideas (i.e. don''t ignore everyone and just start writing :) 2) Implementation during a meeting is one hell of a great way to get feedback on what can/should be done. After you''ve got something up, have people kick the tires on it. 3) You could probably finish it under budget... managers like that sort of thing :) Regs, Derek Nicolas Buet wrote: | | Hi, | | I understand that this might be off topic, but it''s still rails related. | I have a meeting tomorrow with a manager about a database front end | project. He want to use jdbc, but for a change I would like to use | rails. What do you think could convince him that Rails is a viable choice? | | (I don''t know much about the project, but it is small: 5 weeks from | design to delivery, 3 users or less, no authentification... this will | replace a "ms access" tool) | | Regards, | | Nicolas | | | - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | | _______________________________________________ | Rails mailing list | Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org | http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails - -- Derek Wyatt - C++ / Ruby / Unix Programmer http://derekwyatt.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDCNFTwwHFeC88e2IRAjsNAJ9INPlTkc8A/QBPB+s8UzWBaNO3xACg1nZq sO074HtJJ7f/9ZvRLNqQoq8=BBai -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
If you don''t know much about the project and want to use Ruby/Rails
only for novelty ("for a change") you might want to hold off on this
one. If you don''t have strong, project-specific reasons, you *might*
blow any chance with that manager of ever allowing you to use it.
Instead, find out as much as you can about the project and mention
that you are going to look into a framework that will help with rapid
development. Then go back to your office and write up a set of
project-specific reasons. :)
On Aug 21, 2005, at 2:53 PM, Nicolas Buet wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I understand that this might be off topic, but it''s still rails
> related. I have a meeting tomorrow with a manager about a database
> front end project. He want to use jdbc, but for a change I would
> like to use rails. What do you think could convince him that Rails
> is a viable choice?
>
> (I don''t know much about the project, but it is small: 5 weeks
from
> design to delivery, 3 users or less, no authentification... this
> will replace a "ms access" tool)
>
> Regards,
>
> Nicolas
> _______________________________________________
> Rails mailing list
> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
>
Hi Toby, You''re right: "for a chance" is not a good way to describe the situation. Last week, I worked a bit around rails and found that it could become a great asset to permorm my work faster and possibly better. Under what condition? that''s something I don''t know (yet). Could you give me some reasons to go for rails, or to keep from it? My current mind is that going rails on a small project is safe, especially when requirements remain "standard". Is this false? On 8/21/05, Toby Boudreaux <rails-lb8SQxIZKShBDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > If you don''t know much about the project and want to use Ruby/Rails > only for novelty ("for a change") you might want to hold off on this > one. If you don''t have strong, project-specific reasons, you *might* > blow any chance with that manager of ever allowing you to use it. > > Instead, find out as much as you can about the project and mention > that you are going to look into a framework that will help with rapid > development. Then go back to your office and write up a set of > project-specific reasons. :) > > On Aug 21, 2005, at 2:53 PM, Nicolas Buet wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > I understand that this might be off topic, but it''s still rails > > related. I have a meeting tomorrow with a manager about a database > > front end project. He want to use jdbc, but for a change I would > > like to use rails. What do you think could convince him that Rails > > is a viable choice? > > > > (I don''t know much about the project, but it is small: 5 weeks from > > design to delivery, 3 users or less, no authentification... this > > will replace a "ms access" tool) > > > > Regards, > > > > Nicolas > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >_______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Hi Nicolas, i''m sure that the point 3) of Derek''s answer will be really appreciated by your manager but i''ll just react on a part of your mail that has caught my eyes: "...but for a change I would like to use rails..." IMHO never (ever) tell that kind of thing to a suit, if you''re proposing a new or different way of doing things in your company you''re going to need some strong justification, and as "change" is basically what frightened to death most managers...just don''t tell it like that :) also if you want to get your hands on Rails i don''t think that a company project is the most obvious thing to do as a starter, even if it''s a small one...(but hey that''s just my opinion, others may disagree on that...) maybe you may use it for a personal project before so you''ll be experienced with it and i''m sure way more convincing to your management. just my 2 cents, bests, Richard On 8/21/05, Nicolas Buet <nicolas.buet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > Hi, > > I understand that this might be off topic, but it''s still rails related. I > have a meeting tomorrow with a manager about a database front end project. > He want to use jdbc, but for a change I would like to use rails. What do you > think could convince him that Rails is a viable choice? > > (I don''t know much about the project, but it is small: 5 weeks from design > to delivery, 3 users or less, no authentification... this will replace a "ms > access" tool) > > Regards, > > Nicolas > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > >
On Aug 21, 2005, at 2:58 PM, Joe Van Dyk wrote:> If you know Rails at all yet, see if you could code up a working > prototype by then and show it to him.People can be very dismissive of prototypes, sometimes for good reason. There''s the first ninety percent of an application, and then there''s the other ninety percent. Consider setting up a meeting with a projector and showing the manager and your team the most recent demo movie -- the Blog one. I got converted by an earlier movie, and I know of someone else who became a Rails convert due to the current one. After people see that, they''ll be begging to evaluate Rails more fully. Regards, Ed> On 8/21/05, Nicolas Buet <nicolas.buet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote: > >> >> Hi, >> >> I understand that this might be off topic, but it''s still rails >> related. I >> have a meeting tomorrow with a manager about a database front end >> project. >> He want to use jdbc, but for a change I would like to use rails. >> What do you >> think could convince him that Rails is a viable choice? >> >> (I don''t know much about the project, but it is small: 5 weeks >> from design >> to delivery, 3 users or less, no authentification... this will >> replace a "ms >> access" tool) >> >> Regards, >> >> Nicolas >> _______________________________________________ >> Rails mailing list >> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org >> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > >-- Transmogrify, LLC * <http://xmog.com/>
Zed A. Shaw
2005-Aug-22 01:28 UTC
[LONG] Re: How to convince a manager to use Ruby & Rails?
Nicolas, Sounds like you were in exactly the same position as I was with our first Rails app. In my situation our boss asked what we could use to replace VB and MS Access applications that were going the way of the Dodo Bird soon. In my case it wasn''t that hard of a sell since I proposed we spend one month doing a pilot project to see how much we could get done. Turned out we did the entire project''s functionality in about 2.5 weeks so it turned into a big win for us. The general strategy I proposed to the head honchos is that we use Rails for small quick agile applications with a small number of users and then leave the established Java stuff to the big applications. This is a total farce though as Rails can handle all the same stuff if not more than Java (and I''ve proven this time and again with consistent statistically based performance metrics). The big things I can recommend you hit in your presentation are the following: 1. Seriously propose a range of alternatives--including continuing with the current platform--and present the pros/cons of each. They can smell when you''re "stuffing the ballot" so be honest. For example, have you considered just pointing Brio, Cognos, or similar tool at your data? 2. Plan to handle the following questions: * "What about security?" * "How well does it scale?" * "What''s the performance (see below) like?" * "How many users can it handle?" * "How would we deploy it?" * "Do we have the hardware to support it?" * "How does it fit into our current deployment setup?" * "What happens if we have to reboot the server?" * "Is it robust enough to handle our complex business needs?" 3. Give some anecdotes from other sources about the efficiency of Ruby on Rails, and also present the alternative rebutals from similar sources. 4. Demonstrate the #1 thing that Rails has over nearly every other framework: Native Ajax support. I''d take the time to whip up a simple "Ajax Demo" that showed off the cool stuff you can do with Ajax. Other platform advocates will have a hard time competing with that, especially if you show how most Ajax in Rails involves about 10 lines of code (if that). 5. If you''re not good at making cheeze charts (powerpoint to biz people) then get ahold of a friend from marketing to help you out. Buy him/her lunch and they''ll probably kick in some assistance. Especially if they can put their name on the proposal and win some cool points. Just be careful they don''t stab you in the back and try to take credit for the idea (depends on where you work). Finally, here''s some common answers to the questions I gave above: * "What about security?" -- Rails, being a web application framework is just as secure as every other framework. It provides all the normal features for AAA (Authentication, Authorization, Auditing) such as LDAP, logging, etc. and has the same weaknesses if used by uneducated developers. (It helps if you can find a piece of previously written vulnerable or bad code from the other frameworks). * "How well does it scale?" -- First, get them to define scalability. If they say, "You know, how many users can it handle?" Then be prepared to educate them that scalability is about being able to start small, and expand later, not about how many users a given system can handle. *That* is performance. Once you''ve nailed that down, tell them Rails adopts the "share nothing" idea so you can easily scale it out by adding more hardware and running more Rails. This is in contrast to complex Java App server deployments which require MQ systems, NFS, complex session shuffling, and lots of software just to scale. * "What''s the performance like?" -- Tell them it performs just about the same as other platforms, sometimes better, sometimes worse. The advantage that Rails has over many other architectures is that it''s simplicity makes it easier to tune and (drumroll) scale to meet performance needs. In addition, say that if they can come up with solid performance requirements, then it''ll be possible to kill the project early if Rails can''t meet the needs. The nice thing about this last strategy is that they are now on the hook to develop a set of metrics which you can then verify against existing systems. For example, they say, "It needs to handle 500 connections/second." Don''t let them say "users", "users" means nothing. Then you go test their current WizBangOMatic and find it only handles 10 conn/second. You can then come to them and say that Rails can''t do 500 conn/second, but it can do better than the WizBangOMatic which only has 10 conn/second performance. It''s evil, but it puts the performance harpies at rest. * "How many users can it handle?" -- See performance. In addition, "users" is a very vague term you can''t measure. You can measure requests, connections, bytes transfered, simultaneous connected clients, but not users. * "How would we deploy it?" -- Explain the software needed, platforms it runs on, how well it runs on them, etc. * "Do we have the hardware to support it?" -- Yes, it runs on nearly everything, and more than Java. * "How does it fit into our current deployment setup?" -- This one is up to you. Figure it out because they''ll ask. * "What happens if we have to reboot the server?" -- Reboot it. You can configure Rails to start up on reboot just like any other piece of software on the planet. * "Is it robust enough to handle our complex business needs?" -- Explain that several businesses are basing their lives on Rails, and that it seems to be as robust as every other software system. Good luck. On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:53:17 +0200 Nicolas Buet <nicolas.buet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> Hi, > I understand that this might be off topic, but it''s still rails related. I > have a meeting tomorrow with a manager about a database front end project. > He want to use jdbc, but for a change I would like to use rails. What do you > think could convince him that Rails is a viable choice? > (I don''t know much about the project, but it is small: 5 weeks from design > to delivery, 3 users or less, no authentification... this will replace a "ms > access" tool) > Regards, > Nicolas >
Ronny Hanssen
2005-Aug-22 03:19 UTC
Re: [LONG] Re: How to convince a manager to use Ruby & Rails?
GREAT post. I''ve flagged it for use when the time comes for me to pitch Rails at work :) Thanks. Ronny Zed A. Shaw wrote:> Nicolas, > > Sounds like you were in exactly the same position as I was with our first Rails app. In my situation our boss asked what we could use to replace VB and MS Access applications that were going the way of the Dodo Bird soon. In my case it wasn''t that hard of a sell since I proposed we spend one month doing a pilot project to see how much we could get done. Turned out we did the entire project''s functionality in about 2.5 weeks so it turned into a big win for us. > > The general strategy I proposed to the head honchos is that we use Rails for small quick agile applications with a small number of users and then leave the established Java stuff to the big applications. This is a total farce though as Rails can handle all the same stuff if not more than Java (and I''ve proven this time and again with consistent statistically based performance metrics). > > The big things I can recommend you hit in your presentation are the following: > > 1. Seriously propose a range of alternatives--including continuing with the current platform--and present the pros/cons of each. They can smell when you''re "stuffing the ballot" so be honest. For example, have you considered just pointing Brio, Cognos, or similar tool at your data? > 2. Plan to handle the following questions: > * "What about security?" > * "How well does it scale?" > * "What''s the performance (see below) like?" > * "How many users can it handle?" > * "How would we deploy it?" > * "Do we have the hardware to support it?" > * "How does it fit into our current deployment setup?" > * "What happens if we have to reboot the server?" > * "Is it robust enough to handle our complex business needs?" > 3. Give some anecdotes from other sources about the efficiency of Ruby on Rails, and also present the alternative rebutals from similar sources. > 4. Demonstrate the #1 thing that Rails has over nearly every other framework: Native Ajax support. I''d take the time to whip up a simple "Ajax Demo" that showed off the cool stuff you can do with Ajax. Other platform advocates will have a hard time competing with that, especially if you show how most Ajax in Rails involves about 10 lines of code (if that). > 5. If you''re not good at making cheeze charts (powerpoint to biz people) then get ahold of a friend from marketing to help you out. Buy him/her lunch and they''ll probably kick in some assistance. Especially if they can put their name on the proposal and win some cool points. Just be careful they don''t stab you in the back and try to take credit for the idea (depends on where you work). > > Finally, here''s some common answers to the questions I gave above: > > * "What about security?" -- Rails, being a web application framework is just as secure as every other framework. It provides all the normal features for AAA (Authentication, Authorization, Auditing) such as LDAP, logging, etc. and has the same weaknesses if used by uneducated developers. (It helps if you can find a piece of previously written vulnerable or bad code from the other frameworks). > > * "How well does it scale?" -- First, get them to define scalability. If they say, "You know, how many users can it handle?" Then be prepared to educate them that scalability is about being able to start small, and expand later, not about how many users a given system can handle. *That* is performance. Once you''ve nailed that down, tell them Rails adopts the "share nothing" idea so you can easily scale it out by adding more hardware and running more Rails. This is in contrast to complex Java App server deployments which require MQ systems, NFS, complex session shuffling, and lots of software just to scale. > > * "What''s the performance like?" -- Tell them it performs just about the same as other platforms, sometimes better, sometimes worse. The advantage that Rails has over many other architectures is that it''s simplicity makes it easier to tune and (drumroll) scale to meet performance needs. In addition, say that if they can come up with solid performance requirements, then it''ll be possible to kill the project early if Rails can''t meet the needs. The nice thing about this last strategy is that they are now on the hook to develop a set of metrics which you can then verify against existing systems. > For example, they say, "It needs to handle 500 connections/second." Don''t let them say "users", "users" means nothing. Then you go test their current WizBangOMatic and find it only handles 10 conn/second. You can then come to them and say that Rails can''t do 500 conn/second, but it can do better than the WizBangOMatic which only has 10 conn/second performance. It''s evil, but it puts the performance harpies at rest. > > * "How many users can it handle?" -- See performance. In addition, "users" is a very vague term you can''t measure. You can measure requests, connections, bytes transfered, simultaneous connected clients, but not users. > > * "How would we deploy it?" -- Explain the software needed, platforms it runs on, how well it runs on them, etc. > > * "Do we have the hardware to support it?" -- Yes, it runs on nearly everything, and more than Java. > > * "How does it fit into our current deployment setup?" -- This one is up to you. Figure it out because they''ll ask. > > * "What happens if we have to reboot the server?" -- Reboot it. You can configure Rails to start up on reboot just like any other piece of software on the planet. > > * "Is it robust enough to handle our complex business needs?" -- Explain that several businesses are basing their lives on Rails, and that it seems to be as robust as every other software system. > > Good luck. > > On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:53:17 +0200 > Nicolas Buet <nicolas.buet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > >>Hi, >> I understand that this might be off topic, but it''s still rails related. I >>have a meeting tomorrow with a manager about a database front end project. >>He want to use jdbc, but for a change I would like to use rails. What do you >>think could convince him that Rails is a viable choice? >> (I don''t know much about the project, but it is small: 5 weeks from design >>to delivery, 3 users or less, no authentification... this will replace a "ms >>access" tool) >> Regards, >> Nicolas >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ /*Ronny Hanssen*/
OK, just to keep you informed, here''s what happened: I went to the meeting a simple demo I wrote (no ajax, but a nice layout and several tables with all the kinds of relationships). The discussion went as follows: 1) demo of my small app. What was really enjoyed was a "search" module (very simple from the engineering point of view). 2) Explanation of "how it was done", focusing on the mvc model, and on the fact that "you know where''s what". 3) Time, delays to write a such an application 4) Available "modules" (login & pdfwriter) Then we came to the conclusion that rails was perfectly fitted to the application (the demo was covering 80% of the requirements, pdfwriter the last 20%), and that it was worth a try. Thanks to all for your advices, Nicolas On 8/21/05, Ed Watkeys <edw-tIV1OJqwIcc@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > > On Aug 21, 2005, at 2:58 PM, Joe Van Dyk wrote: > > > If you know Rails at all yet, see if you could code up a working > > prototype by then and show it to him. > > People can be very dismissive of prototypes, sometimes for good > reason. There''s the first ninety percent of an application, and then > there''s the other ninety percent. Consider setting up a meeting with > a projector and showing the manager and your team the most recent > demo movie -- the Blog one. I got converted by an earlier movie, and > I know of someone else who became a Rails convert due to the current > one. > > After people see that, they''ll be begging to evaluate Rails more fully. > > Regards, > Ed > > > > On 8/21/05, Nicolas Buet <nicolas.buet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I understand that this might be off topic, but it''s still rails > >> related. I > >> have a meeting tomorrow with a manager about a database front end > >> project. > >> He want to use jdbc, but for a change I would like to use rails. > >> What do you > >> think could convince him that Rails is a viable choice? > >> > >> (I don''t know much about the project, but it is small: 5 weeks > >> from design > >> to delivery, 3 users or less, no authentification... this will > >> replace a "ms > >> access" tool) > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Nicolas > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rails mailing list > >> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > >> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > >> > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > > > > -- > Transmogrify, LLC * <http://xmog.com/> > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >_______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Great! My congratulations :) Frederic Jean On 8/26/05, Nicolas Buet <nicolas.buet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> OK, just to keep you informed, here''s what happened: > I went to the meeting a simple demo I wrote (no ajax, but a nice layout and > several tables with all the kinds of relationships). The discussion went as > follows: > 1) demo of my small app. What was really enjoyed was a "search" module (very > simple from the engineering point of view). > 2) Explanation of "how it was done", focusing on the mvc model, and on the > fact that "you know where''s what". > 3) Time, delays to write a such an application > 4) Available "modules" (login & pdfwriter) > > Then we came to the conclusion that rails was perfectly fitted to the > application (the demo was covering 80% of the requirements, pdfwriter the > last 20%), and that it was worth a try. > > Thanks to all for your advices, > > Nicolas > > > > On 8/21/05, Ed Watkeys <edw-tIV1OJqwIcc@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > > On Aug 21, 2005, at 2:58 PM, Joe Van Dyk wrote: > > > > > If you know Rails at all yet, see if you could code up a working > > > prototype by then and show it to him. > > > > People can be very dismissive of prototypes, sometimes for good > > reason. There''s the first ninety percent of an application, and then > > there''s the other ninety percent. Consider setting up a meeting with > > a projector and showing the manager and your team the most recent > > demo movie -- the Blog one. I got converted by an earlier movie, and > > I know of someone else who became a Rails convert due to the current > > one. > > > > After people see that, they''ll be begging to evaluate Rails more fully. > > > > Regards, > > Ed > > > > > > > On 8/21/05, Nicolas Buet <nicolas.buet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> I understand that this might be off topic, but it''s still rails > > >> related. I > > >> have a meeting tomorrow with a manager about a database front end > > >> project. > > >> He want to use jdbc, but for a change I would like to use rails. > > >> What do you > > >> think could convince him that Rails is a viable choice? > > >> > > >> (I don''t know much about the project, but it is small: 5 weeks > > >> from design > > >> to delivery, 3 users or less, no authentification... this will > > >> replace a "ms > > >> access" tool) > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> > > >> Nicolas > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Rails mailing list > > >> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > > >> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rails mailing list > > > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Transmogrify, LLC * < http://xmog.com/> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > >-- Frederic Jean fredjean-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
2005-Aug-28 07:23 UTC
Re: How to convince a manager to use Ruby & Rails?
On Aug 26, 2005, at 1:55 PM, Nicolas Buet wrote:> Then we came to the conclusion that rails was perfectly fitted to > the application (the demo was covering 80% of the requirements, > pdfwriter the last 20%), and that it was worth a try.Good job! If you need help, there''s always the list and #rubyonrails on irc.freenode.net.
I''ve had success with a similar approach several times; not just with Rails, but introducing new technology to a workplace. In general, this approach works well when: - the problem isn''t e.g. building a new enterprise app that will be mission critical from day one. The "problem" should annoy a relatively small group of people, but it should annoy them a great deal, to the point where, when a solution is presented to them, they embrace the solution before questioning the approach taken to deliver the solution - the solution to the problem, using Rails (in this case), should take only a short time to build and deploy. In particular, building the solution (using Rails) shouldn''t take dramatically longer than e.g. discussing which of the 117 possible Java approaches to the problem would be optimal - the problem is such that it''s difficult to define what the actual solution should look like. A sizeable chunk of building the solution is made up of defining what the solution should look like (so an Agile approach wins out), and in some cases it involves getting to consensus of what the problem really is. In this case, you can often gain acceptance of Rails by agreeing to change your solution slightly to fit someone else''s expectations of how it should be solved - there''s other techos around, who can be reasonably expected to pick up the new technology once they see its advantages. Once you show a techo how to quickly solve a problem using a new tool, it''s almost a point of honour that he/she then needs to (a) learn about the tool, (b) demonstrate competence with the tool, and (c) discover some aspect or use of the tool that you didn''t know or think about. You''ll do well to accept and encourage this If in doubt, have a chat with any sys admins old enough to remember when tools like Perl, Apache & Samba were "unacceptable"; in all the cases I''ve seen, these tools were brought in (unauthorised) to solve some specific problem, then retained and enhanced once their usefulness was shown Regards Dave M. On 8/27/05, Nicolas Buet <nicolas.buet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> OK, just to keep you informed, here''s what happened: > I went to the meeting a simple demo I wrote (no ajax, but a nice layout and > several tables with all the kinds of relationships). The discussion went as > follows: > 1) demo of my small app. What was really enjoyed was a "search" module (very > simple from the engineering point of view). > 2) Explanation of "how it was done", focusing on the mvc model, and on the > fact that "you know where''s what". > 3) Time, delays to write a such an application > 4) Available "modules" (login & pdfwriter) > > Then we came to the conclusion that rails was perfectly fitted to the > application (the demo was covering 80% of the requirements, pdfwriter the > last 20%), and that it was worth a try. > > Thanks to all for your advices, > > Nicolas > > > > On 8/21/05, Ed Watkeys <edw-tIV1OJqwIcc@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > > On Aug 21, 2005, at 2:58 PM, Joe Van Dyk wrote: > > > > > If you know Rails at all yet, see if you could code up a working > > > prototype by then and show it to him. > > > > People can be very dismissive of prototypes, sometimes for good > > reason. There''s the first ninety percent of an application, and then > > there''s the other ninety percent. Consider setting up a meeting with > > a projector and showing the manager and your team the most recent > > demo movie -- the Blog one. I got converted by an earlier movie, and > > I know of someone else who became a Rails convert due to the current > > one. > > > > After people see that, they''ll be begging to evaluate Rails more fully. > > > > Regards, > > Ed > > > > > > > On 8/21/05, Nicolas Buet <nicolas.buet-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> I understand that this might be off topic, but it''s still rails > > >> related. I > > >> have a meeting tomorrow with a manager about a database front end > > >> project. > > >> He want to use jdbc, but for a change I would like to use rails. > > >> What do you > > >> think could convince him that Rails is a viable choice? > > >> > > >> (I don''t know much about the project, but it is small: 5 weeks > > >> from design > > >> to delivery, 3 users or less, no authentification... this will > > >> replace a "ms > > >> access" tool) > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> > > >> Nicolas > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Rails mailing list > > >> Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > > >> http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rails mailing list > > > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Transmogrify, LLC * < http://xmog.com/> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rails mailing list > > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > > >
Just curious, what types/sizes of the companies have you had successes with? On 8/28/05, David Mitchell <monch1962-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> I''ve had success with a similar approach several times; not just with > Rails, but introducing new technology to a workplace. > > In general, this approach works well when: > - the problem isn''t e.g. building a new enterprise app that will be > mission critical from day one. The "problem" should annoy a > relatively small group of people, but it should annoy them a great > deal, to the point where, when a solution is presented to them, they > embrace the solution before questioning the approach taken to deliver > the solution > - the solution to the problem, using Rails (in this case), should take > only a short time to build and deploy. In particular, building the > solution (using Rails) shouldn''t take dramatically longer than e.g. > discussing which of the 117 possible Java approaches to the problem > would be optimal > - the problem is such that it''s difficult to define what the actual > solution should look like. A sizeable chunk of building the solution > is made up of defining what the solution should look like (so an Agile > approach wins out), and in some cases it involves getting to consensus > of what the problem really is. In this case, you can often gain > acceptance of Rails by agreeing to change your solution slightly to > fit someone else''s expectations of how it should be solved > - there''s other techos around, who can be reasonably expected to pick > up the new technology once they see its advantages. Once you show a > techo how to quickly solve a problem using a new tool, it''s almost a > point of honour that he/she then needs to (a) learn about the tool, > (b) demonstrate competence with the tool, and (c) discover some aspect > or use of the tool that you didn''t know or think about. You''ll do > well to accept and encourage this > > If in doubt, have a chat with any sys admins old enough to remember > when tools like Perl, Apache & Samba were "unacceptable"; in all the > cases I''ve seen, these tools were brought in (unauthorised) to solve > some specific problem, then retained and enhanced once their > usefulness was shown >
Specifically with Rails? Only one success so far, at a large telco. With similar "disruptive" tools? Off the top of my head: - Ethereal and Python for use in analysing and reconstructing network traffic to allow us to recreate a problem at one of the big 3 car manufacturers. - Python and R (a statistical language) to capture and wade through ~70Gb/day of network traffic to isolate a problem at a high security government facility. All traffic was encrypted, so I had to resort to statistical analysis of piles of data to detect patterns rather than examining individual packets. Couldn''t take data out of the room I was working in, had someone monitoring what I was doing constantly, etc. - paid well though! - Perl to generate transaction-like traffic at high volumes to test a packet switching application at a large bank - Ruby for reducing and reporting on SAS data (I''ve got a few scripts that I use regularly for this stuff, for several customers) Except for the R stuff, all the rest was pretty simple work; the challenge was to start with the correct toolset for the problem, rather than using e.g. Java to try to do everything. I''m sure it''s possible, just as I know it''s possible to hammer in nails using a screwdriver, but some IT tasks are orders of magnitude similar when you use the "correct" tools. Regards Dave M. On 8/29/05, Cuong Tran <cuong.tran-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> Just curious, what types/sizes of the companies have you had successes with?
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky
2005-Aug-31 14:03 UTC
Re: How to convince a manager to use Ruby & Rails?
David Mitchell wrote:>Specifically with Rails? Only one success so far, at a large telco. > >With similar "disruptive" tools? Off the top of my head: >- Ethereal and Python for use in analysing and reconstructing network >traffic to allow us to recreate a problem at one of the big 3 car >manufacturers. > >I wouldn''t call Etheral a disruptive tool. I *would* call it a hacking tool, though :). I don''t know Python, so I can''t comment on its ruptiveness. :)>- Python and R (a statistical language) to capture and wade through >~70Gb/day of network traffic to isolate a problem at a high security >government facility. All traffic was encrypted, so I had to resort to >statistical analysis of piles of data to detect patterns rather than >examining individual packets. Couldn''t take data out of the room I >was working in, had someone monitoring what I was doing constantly, >etc. - paid well though! > >Hmmm ... I sense a pattern here ... you''re a network performance analyst. :) For a while -- until last year''s CMG Conference, anyhow, I thought I was the only one who was (semi-publicly) using R for performance modeling and analysis. (Bear with me here, there''s actually a Ruby/Rails connection coming). Specifically, I have mounds of performance data, some of it in "real" databases but much more of it in flat compressed CSV files. Once I get it into a database, it''s easy to use R through a library routine called RODBC. Most of the machines are Windows and most of the databases are SQL Server, though there is some MS Abscess and there is starting to be PostgreSQL. So ... two questions: 1. Is there a (Pure Ruby preferably) ODBC connection capability available, preferably in a Gem package? 2. Can RoR be made to work with ODBC? What I''m looking to do is organize and archive all of this data, with an RoR application to manage promotion and demotion of the data to a (Windows) analysis server; the analysis will still be done in R. My preference would be a Linux server because tape drive access is a PITA in Windows, but ... Incidentally, we also run CygWin on the server and a couple of the workstations. I installed the Gem package manager and Rails and got Webrick to display the congratulations page using the CygWin Ruby 1.8.2 on one of the workstations. Unless there are compelling reasons otherwise, I''d just as soon not mess with the Windows installer, since I''m used to the CygWin command line and have more or less forgotten the native Windows command line. Typing back-slashes sends my brain in random directions for unacceptable periods of time, as does typing "dir" to list all the files in a directory in black-and-white. :) So, is running Rails on Windows systems under CygWin putting me at risk of being deprecated upon? :) Or will the CygWin platform be able to track RoR?>- Perl to generate transaction-like traffic at high volumes to test a >packet switching application at a large bank > >Hmm ... speaking of the "right tool for the job", did you look at any lower-level tools for this one? I have quite a collection of network performance gadgets that come free with Gentoo Linux, including the ns/nam simulator and lots of tools for replaying real-world traffic. There''s also a way to emulate a WAN using the Linux kernel, iproute2 and two NICs. As far as I''m concerned, I wouldn''t get involved in any kind of network performance evaluation again without a laptop with two NICs running Gentoo and all the packages in their net-analyzer category (and R, of course). But I digress. :). -- M. Edward (Ed) Borasky http://www.borasky-research.net/ http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/ http://pdxneurosemantics.com http://pdx-sales-coach.com http://algocompsynth.com
On 8/31/05, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb-2WxwdZd67h7R7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:> David Mitchell wrote: > > >Specifically with Rails? Only one success so far, at a large telco. > > > >With similar "disruptive" tools? Off the top of my head: > >- Ethereal and Python for use in analysing and reconstructing network > >traffic to allow us to recreate a problem at one of the big 3 car > >manufacturers. > > > > > I wouldn''t call Etheral a disruptive tool. I *would* call it a hacking > tool, though :). I don''t know Python, so I can''t comment on its > ruptiveness. :) > > >- Python and R (a statistical language) to capture and wade through > >~70Gb/day of network traffic to isolate a problem at a high security > >government facility. All traffic was encrypted, so I had to resort to > >statistical analysis of piles of data to detect patterns rather than > >examining individual packets. Couldn''t take data out of the room I > >was working in, had someone monitoring what I was doing constantly, > >etc. - paid well though! > > > > > Hmmm ... I sense a pattern here ... you''re a network performance > analyst. :) For a while -- until last year''s CMG Conference, anyhow, I > thought I was the only one who was (semi-publicly) using R for > performance modeling and analysis. (Bear with me here, there''s actually > a Ruby/Rails connection coming). > > Specifically, I have mounds of performance data, some of it in "real" > databases but much more of it in flat compressed CSV files. Once I get > it into a database, it''s easy to use R through a library routine called > RODBC. Most of the machines are Windows and most of the databases are > SQL Server, though there is some MS Abscess and there is starting to be > PostgreSQL. So ... two questions: > > 1. Is there a (Pure Ruby preferably) ODBC connection capability > available, preferably in a Gem package? > > 2. Can RoR be made to work with ODBC? > > What I''m looking to do is organize and archive all of this data, with an > RoR application to manage promotion and demotion of the data to a > (Windows) analysis server; the analysis will still be done in R. My > preference would be a Linux server because tape drive access is a PITA > in Windows, but ...You may want to check out ODBTP. I''ve used the php extension to connect to a Pervasive.SQL database located on a Windows machine from a FreeBSD web server. You could use the command line client with Ruby though... or make a ruby client. http://odbtp.sourceforge.net/
For the R fans, there is a project on Rubyforge to allow control of R from within Ruby. There isn''t a release for it yet, but maybe with some help it might bring it on faster. "R is a statistical language quite but not like S. This project aims at enabling full access to R functions from Ruby, including all statistical libraries written in R." http://rubyforge.org/projects/r4ruby/ Cheers On 9/1/05, James Earl <jamesd.earl-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> > On 8/31/05, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb-2WxwdZd67h7R7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > David Mitchell wrote: > > > > >Specifically with Rails? Only one success so far, at a large telco. > > > > > >With similar "disruptive" tools? Off the top of my head: > > >- Ethereal and Python for use in analysing and reconstructing network > > >traffic to allow us to recreate a problem at one of the big 3 car > > >manufacturers. > > > > > > > > I wouldn''t call Etheral a disruptive tool. I *would* call it a hacking > > tool, though :). I don''t know Python, so I can''t comment on its > > ruptiveness. :) > > > > >- Python and R (a statistical language) to capture and wade through > > >~70Gb/day of network traffic to isolate a problem at a high security > > >government facility. All traffic was encrypted, so I had to resort to > > >statistical analysis of piles of data to detect patterns rather than > > >examining individual packets. Couldn''t take data out of the room I > > >was working in, had someone monitoring what I was doing constantly, > > >etc. - paid well though! > > > > > > > > Hmmm ... I sense a pattern here ... you''re a network performance > > analyst. :) For a while -- until last year''s CMG Conference, anyhow, I > > thought I was the only one who was (semi-publicly) using R for > > performance modeling and analysis. (Bear with me here, there''s actually > > a Ruby/Rails connection coming). > > > > Specifically, I have mounds of performance data, some of it in "real" > > databases but much more of it in flat compressed CSV files. Once I get > > it into a database, it''s easy to use R through a library routine called > > RODBC. Most of the machines are Windows and most of the databases are > > SQL Server, though there is some MS Abscess and there is starting to be > > PostgreSQL. So ... two questions: > > > > 1. Is there a (Pure Ruby preferably) ODBC connection capability > > available, preferably in a Gem package? > > > > 2. Can RoR be made to work with ODBC? > > > > What I''m looking to do is organize and archive all of this data, with an > > RoR application to manage promotion and demotion of the data to a > > (Windows) analysis server; the analysis will still be done in R. My > > preference would be a Linux server because tape drive access is a PITA > > in Windows, but ... > > You may want to check out ODBTP. I''ve used the php extension to > connect to a Pervasive.SQL database located on a Windows machine from > a FreeBSD web server. You could use the command line client with Ruby > though... or make a ruby client. > > http://odbtp.sourceforge.net/ > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >_______________________________________________ Rails mailing list Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky
2005-Sep-02 13:27 UTC
Re: How to convince a manager to use Ruby & Rails?
Liquid wrote:> For the R fans, there is a project on Rubyforge to allow control of R > from within Ruby. There isn''t a release for it yet, but maybe with > some help it might bring it on faster. > > "R is a statistical language quite but not like S. This project aims > at enabling full access to R functions from Ruby, including all > statistical libraries written in R." > > http://rubyforge.org/projects/r4ruby/ > > CheersYeah, I saw that ... I think I''ll do some basic testing over the weekend if there''s anything to test. The folks at Omegahat have hooked R (and S) to Perl, and IIRC Java and Python as well. I think the URL is www.omegahat.org. -- M. Edward (Ed) Borasky http://www.borasky-research.net/ http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/ http://pdxneurosemantics.com http://pdx-sales-coach.com http://algocompsynth.com