I''m posting this to confirm that what I''m doing should work before I log an official bug. I have two tables, "folders" and "messages" with a habtm relationship between them. In folders, the relationship is defined as: has_and_belongs_to_many :messages, :order => "date DESC" I also have a FeedFolder model, which is a subclass of Folder. When, in a controller, I do a find as follows: @folder = FeedFolder.find @params["id"], :include => [:messages] the find returns the correct results, but @folders.messages is not ordered correctly. Looking at the SQL in development.log, I see: SELECT ... FROM folders LEFT OUTER JOIN folders_messages ON folders_messages.folder_id = folders.id LEFT OUTER JOIN messages ON folders_messages.message_id = messages.id WHERE folders.id = ''11'' AND (folders.type = ''FeedFolder'' ) Note the lack of an ORDER BY clause. I can force the correct result by doing: @folder = FeedFolder.find @params["id"], :include => [:messages], :order => "messages.date DESC" If this is me stuffing something up rather than a bug then feel free to put me in my place. :) Cheers, Pete Yandell