I''ve tried a couple of times today to present this question in a couple of threads where it seemed relevant, when realistically, I should have started a new thread: so if you''ve seen this already, my apologies-- I promise not to plaster things all over the list like this again in the future. Here goes: I''m a relative noob to Rails and Ruby, but have experience developing Web apps in PHP,ASP, and .NET/C#, so I am familiar with Server Side frameworks, DB interaction, and OOP design. When I saw the OnLamp tutorial, I wanted to absorb everything I could about RoR- I''ve read LoudThinking, Amy Hoy, Curt Hibbs, 4 Days on Rails, Pickaxe I, Matz''s Ruby documentation, and the documentation for the Rails API, and a good bit of the AR,AP,and AS API docs. By reading the wiki even got the login generator and ActionMailer working on my local Apache. Frequently, I''ve bugged the helpful folks in the Rails IRC channel. But I still feel like none of it is cohesive in my mind. To me, the API docs are more in the style of a quick reference guide for the experienced Rails developer, and the wiki is presents little nuggest of code that, while helpful, still don''t seem to ''glue it all together.'' So my questions are: 1. Several folks on this list are extremly well versed in Rails. How have you obtained your knowledge? Especially in such a short time-- my understanding is that Rails is quite new. Short of examining the Ruby source code for the entire Rails framework (which may be what I need to do?), is there some piece of documentation that I''ve missed that, like PickAxe does for Ruby, takes you step-by-step through Rails, in a linear fashion, with each new concept building on the last? 2. How do you stay abreast of the rapid changes/enhancements? When I went through the Rails 4 Days pdf with Rails .09 everything worked fine. I''ve since upgraded to the current Rails using Gems, and find subtle changes that I have to solve on my own by trial-and-error (e.g. -- accessing varibles passed from a form to a controller; figuring out the paginator, even beginning to understand what the heck AJAX is and how to use it- though the thought of using server side script to interact with the DOM an JavaScript does sound intriguing). I don''t mean to sound like I''m griping without offering solutions. I''m just feeling very bewildered and frustrated. I hope one day to be an active part of the Rails community, and perhaps write tutorails of my own and add to the wiki and such. But, as a noob I feel like there is a huge gap between the getting started docs, and actually doing non-trivial Web apps the Rails way. Thanks for any feedback, and thanks especially to everybody who has worked very hard to make Rails a great framework. cheers, Howard
On 4/28/05, John Wells <lists-y8WhZ5XeQqVfbyii3fMa5/Z4XP/Yx64J@public.gmane.org> wrote:> Howard Roberts said: > > To me, the API docs are more in the style of a quick reference guide for > > the experienced Rails developer, and the wiki is presents little nuggest > > of code that, while helpful, still don''t seem to ''glue it all together.''(...) Same here, I don''t feel alone anymore. I am also still wondering what''s so marvelous about rails which I missed, except the fact it''s slooooow :(. John, I also read typo, tried to add a "board" feature on http://penso.info/blog/tribune/ but I got javascript bug. And I just had to reboot the vserver because too much ''ruby'' instance and I couldn''t log in through my ssh anymore. -- http://penso.info/
> I suspect the upcoming book from the PragProgs and the various O''Reilly > "rush to publish first" efforts will yield what we need, but damn it...I > don''t want to wait that long. I''ve been reading source of Typo to get > further info, but that''s a tedious approach.Start building your app! I immediately started work on my wonderful rails app. I used it as an excuse to learn every little trick I could. Then, when I felt like I was pretty comfortable with Rails, I hit delete and started over. This time it''s going MUCH quicker and my code is cleaner. I also went with more of a "design first" approach instead of a "model first" approach that I''m very used to. My app doesn''t look like a souped-up scaffolded app anymore... Should be ready to go very soon. -- rick http://techno-weenie.net
Howard Roberts wrote:> I''ve tried a couple of times today to present this question in a couple > of threads where it seemed relevant, when realistically, I should have > started a new thread: so if you''ve seen this already, my apologies-- I > promise not to plaster things all over the list like this again in the > future. ><snip> Howard, two of us were just talking about this last night. We started this week looking into Rails as a solution for several clients Intranets. We had looked at several PHP tools from the behemoth BinaryCloud to Seagull to Propel. All offer something, but in general I found that most PHP frameworks were very good at building the same Wiki or message board that the authors used, and nothing else. We like Rails very much, it is lightweight, simple, uncluttered with builtin widgets and kitchen sinks. However, we are both finding that we completely dislike Wikis. For all the information that the Wiki contains, much is out of date (will not work with the current version of Rails). Quite a few of the Wiki pages only offer snippets of code that without the authors knowlege or at the least an idea of the context, is very hard to follow. I had mentioned that I might comment to the list about the documentation, but I was certain I would get a response of "help us with docs" ;^). I would be happy to, but I''m having a very difficult time getting up to speed. The new Pickaxe book comes soon, Ruby looks easy enough to learn (PHP, Perl, Usertalk, Lingo and Hypertalk in the past), we will both be first purchasers of the Rails book as soon as it is ready. Till then, we keep pluging away and resisting the urge to ask a constant stream of question on this list ;^) Thanks, DAve
Rick Olson <technoweenie-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:>> I suspect the upcoming book from the PragProgs and the various O''Reilly >> "rush to publish first" efforts will yield what we need, but damn it...I >> don''t want to wait that long. I''ve been reading source of Typo to get >> further info, but that''s a tedious approach. > > Start building your app!I''m not 100% Rails proficient, but I''m making progress. I think the key is to start an app and keep pushing on it. Between the wiki, the API docs, and IRC the information is mostly out there. Also, following this mailing list is pretty important I think. That''s the only real way to keep up with what''s changing. There''s lots of things you can learn by reading the questions and answers of others even if they don''t seem to apply. -- doug-jGAhs73c5XxeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org
Howard Roberts said:> To me, the API docs are more in the style of a quick reference guide for > the experienced Rails developer, and the wiki is presents little nuggest > of code that, while helpful, still don''t seem to ''glue it all together.''Howard, Thanks for posting these questions...you beat me to it. I''m in the same boat as you: 7 years of experience in Java, PHP, Perl, etc on the server-side but new to RoR. And I''ve come away with the same feeling as you...after reading the OnLamp tutorial and the spotty Four Days on Rails (along with Pickaxe II, in my case), what next? There''s nothing that ties it all together and covers the broad scope of the framework. I suspect the upcoming book from the PragProgs and the various O''Reilly "rush to publish first" efforts will yield what we need, but damn it...I don''t want to wait that long. I''ve been reading source of Typo to get further info, but that''s a tedious approach. So...anyone? John
On 4/28/05, Howard Roberts <howardroberts-Wuw85uim5zDR7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:> I''ve tried a couple of times today to present this question in a couple > of threads where it seemed relevant, when realistically, I should have > started a new thread: so if you''ve seen this already, my apologies-- I > promise not to plaster things all over the list like this again in the > future. > > Here goes: > I''m a relative noob to Rails and Ruby, but have experience developing > Web apps in PHP,ASP, and .NET/C#, so I am familiar with Server Side > frameworks, DB interaction, and OOP design. When I saw the OnLamp > tutorial, I wanted to absorb everything I could about RoR- I''ve read > LoudThinking, Amy Hoy, Curt Hibbs, 4 Days on Rails, Pickaxe I, Matz''s > Ruby documentation, and the documentation for the Rails API, and a good > bit of the AR,AP,and AS API docs. By reading the wiki even got the login > generator and ActionMailer working on my local Apache. Frequently, I''ve > bugged the helpful folks in the Rails IRC channel. But I still feel like > none of it is cohesive in my mind. > > To me, the API docs are more in the style of a quick reference guide for > the experienced Rails developer, and the wiki is presents little nuggest > of code that, while helpful, still don''t seem to ''glue it all together.'' > > So my questions are: > 1. Several folks on this list are extremly well versed in Rails. How > have you obtained your knowledge? Especially in such a short time-- my > understanding is that Rails is quite new. > > Short of examining the Ruby source code for the entire Rails framework > (which may be what I need to do?), is there some piece of documentation > that I''ve missed that, like PickAxe does for Ruby, takes you > step-by-step through Rails, in a linear fashion, with each new concept > building on the last? > > 2. How do you stay abreast of the rapid changes/enhancements? When I > went through the Rails 4 Days pdf with Rails .09 everything worked fine. > I''ve since upgraded to the current Rails using Gems, and find subtle > changes that I have to solve on my own by trial-and-error (e.g. -- > accessing varibles passed from a form to a controller; figuring out the > paginator, even beginning to understand what the heck AJAX is and how to > use it- though the thought of using server side script to interact with > the DOM an JavaScript does sound intriguing). > > I don''t mean to sound like I''m griping without offering solutions. I''m > just feeling very bewildered and frustrated. I hope one day to be an > active part of the Rails community, and perhaps write tutorails of my > own and add to the wiki and such. But, as a noob I feel like there is a > huge gap between the getting started docs, and actually doing > non-trivial Web apps the Rails way. > > Thanks for any feedback, and thanks especially to everybody who has > worked very hard to make Rails a great framework. > > cheers, > > Howard > > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >Others have commented about how important it is to just start building your app and experimenting. This is definitely the best way to get going. In order to keep abreast of both recent and upcoming changes, read the Trac timeline (http://dev.rubyonrails.com/). This will show you any tickets that are filed or resolved, and any commits by the Rails developers. Reading their changelogs will make sure you are always up-to-date. Dave -- Dave Goodlad dgoodlad-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org or dave-eHfbeeWWzZOw5LPnMra/2Q@public.gmane.org http://david.goodlad.ca/
Matthew Margolis wrote:> Just go ahead and build something. Back several months ago before the > OnLamp articles or the four days on rails tutorial I was in the same > boat as you. I was pretty sure I understood the basics but I didn''t > know how to go about learning the more advanced stuff. I decided to > code up the todo app (see the tutorial on rubyonrails.com). After I was > done with that I decided to customize it by adding a login system, > categories, email reminders and a few other things. I didn''t decide on > what features to add by what was available as a tutorial but simply by > what I wanted the app to do. Once I had my list of desired features I > hit the irc chat room, the mailing list, the docs, and the web to find > out how to make these features work. In the process I learned a lot of > tricks and my understanding of the whole framework increased a lot. > When I was done with that I moved onto a blog where I learned even more. > Just practice making apps and hang out in the irc channel and you will > pick up all sorts of great little rails tricks. One of the best things > you can do in my opinion is to read all the code snippets that are > posted on the irc channel by the experienced developers. I have learned > quite a few tricks by looking at their posted code.I know this may sound silly to some of you, I''ve been doing internet work since 96 (after a long hiatus from COBOL and JCL). I''ve used mostly Macs and Unix (FreeBSD, Slackware, Solaris). Currently I am on a XP Pro laptop. What is a good IRC client? The selection is staggering and believe it or not I''ve never used IRC. No "old man" comments please ;^) DAve
(...)> What is a good IRC client? The selection is staggering and believe it or > not I''ve never used IRC. No "old man" comments please ;^)Only old man can comments on IRC, the youth comments on MSN... Try xchat, I it runs under Windows.
> I know this may sound silly to some of you, I''ve been doing internet > work since 96 (after a long hiatus from COBOL and JCL). I''ve used mostly > Macs and Unix (FreeBSD, Slackware, Solaris). Currently I am on a XP Pro > laptop. > > What is a good IRC client? The selection is staggering and believe it or > not I''ve never used IRC. No "old man" comments please ;^)It''s not free, but mIRC is pretty much the canonical Windows IRC client. It''s the only one I''ve ever been able to stand, but that''s primarily because I just can''t use xchat :)
Hi! On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, DAve wrote the following:> What is a good IRC client? The selection is staggering and believe it or > not I''ve never used IRC. No "old man" comments please ;^) >try HydraIRC (http://www.hydrairc.com/) bye Wolfgang
Just go ahead and build something. Back several months ago before the OnLamp articles or the four days on rails tutorial I was in the same boat as you. I was pretty sure I understood the basics but I didn''t know how to go about learning the more advanced stuff. I decided to code up the todo app (see the tutorial on rubyonrails.com). After I was done with that I decided to customize it by adding a login system, categories, email reminders and a few other things. I didn''t decide on what features to add by what was available as a tutorial but simply by what I wanted the app to do. Once I had my list of desired features I hit the irc chat room, the mailing list, the docs, and the web to find out how to make these features work. In the process I learned a lot of tricks and my understanding of the whole framework increased a lot. When I was done with that I moved onto a blog where I learned even more. Just practice making apps and hang out in the irc channel and you will pick up all sorts of great little rails tricks. One of the best things you can do in my opinion is to read all the code snippets that are posted on the irc channel by the experienced developers. I have learned quite a few tricks by looking at their posted code. I am sure that the books will help out too but as you said those are still a bit of a wait. -Matt Margolis John Wells wrote:>Howard Roberts said: > > >>To me, the API docs are more in the style of a quick reference guide for >>the experienced Rails developer, and the wiki is presents little nuggest >>of code that, while helpful, still don''t seem to ''glue it all together.'' >> >> > >Howard, > >Thanks for posting these questions...you beat me to it. I''m in the same >boat as you: 7 years of experience in Java, PHP, Perl, etc on the >server-side but new to RoR. And I''ve come away with the same feeling as >you...after reading the OnLamp tutorial and the spotty Four Days on Rails >(along with Pickaxe II, in my case), what next? There''s nothing that ties >it all together and covers the broad scope of the framework. > >I suspect the upcoming book from the PragProgs and the various O''Reilly >"rush to publish first" efforts will yield what we need, but damn it...I >don''t want to wait that long. I''ve been reading source of Typo to get >further info, but that''s a tedious approach. > >So...anyone? > >John > >_______________________________________________ >Rails mailing list >Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org >http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails > >
On 4/28/05, DAve <dave.list-+JIuMJIPudMuIF41do6k7w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> Matthew Margolis wrote: > > > Just go ahead and build something. Back several months ago before the > > OnLamp articles or the four days on rails tutorial I was in the same > > boat as you. I was pretty sure I understood the basics but I didn''t > > know how to go about learning the more advanced stuff. I decided to > > code up the todo app (see the tutorial on rubyonrails.com). After I was > > done with that I decided to customize it by adding a login system, > > categories, email reminders and a few other things. I didn''t decide on > > what features to add by what was available as a tutorial but simply by > > what I wanted the app to do. Once I had my list of desired features I > > hit the irc chat room, the mailing list, the docs, and the web to find > > out how to make these features work. In the process I learned a lot of > > tricks and my understanding of the whole framework increased a lot. > > When I was done with that I moved onto a blog where I learned even more. > > Just practice making apps and hang out in the irc channel and you will > > pick up all sorts of great little rails tricks. One of the best things > > you can do in my opinion is to read all the code snippets that are > > posted on the irc channel by the experienced developers. I have learned > > quite a few tricks by looking at their posted code. > > I know this may sound silly to some of you, I''ve been doing internet > work since 96 (after a long hiatus from COBOL and JCL). I''ve used mostly > Macs and Unix (FreeBSD, Slackware, Solaris). Currently I am on a XP Pro > laptop. > > What is a good IRC client? The selection is staggering and believe it or > not I''ve never used IRC. No "old man" comments please ;^)Mozilla comes with Chatzilla built in. Don''t know if it would qualify as good, but it''s simple, and convenient.> DAve > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla)
Well, this old-geezer-from-the-last-century uses Chatzilla (mozilla/firefox plugin) when in front of a windows box. Trevor On 28-Apr-05, at 7:45 AM, DAve wrote:> > I know this may sound silly to some of you, I''ve been doing internet > work since 96 (after a long hiatus from COBOL and JCL). I''ve used > mostly Macs and Unix (FreeBSD, Slackware, Solaris). Currently I am on > a XP Pro laptop. > > What is a good IRC client? The selection is staggering and believe it > or not I''ve never used IRC. No "old man" comments please ;^) > > DAve > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
DAve said:> What is a good IRC client? The selection is staggering and believe it or > not I''ve never used IRC. No "old man" comments please ;^)Dave, Try xchat. http://www.xchat.org
DAve said:> What is a good IRC client? The selection is staggering and believe it ornot I''ve never used IRC. No "old man" comments please ;^) Dave, Try xchat. http://www.xchat.org
> Same here, I don''t feel alone anymore. I am also still wondering > what''s so marvelous about rails which I missed, except the fact it''s > slooooow :(.Have you ever loaded snowdevil.ca? Still think rails is slow? If you''re having speed problems, you probably haven''t configured your web server/rails right. Development mode does reloading of models, etc. on each request. Production will be faster. Development mode also disables caching. If you''re using cgi then you''re reloading all of rails on each request. Use fcgi/mod_ruby. Development mode IIRC also reloads the database schema changes on every request. In production all of this happens once at startup. Set it up in a production context. Whenever I do this, it instantly becomes 2-3 times as responsive. Running the ''production'' environment remotely can be faster than running ''development'' locally. Set up a production deployment and you''ll start to see what your users see. Development is slow for legitimate reasons that make development easier. Brian On 4/28/05, Fabien Penso <fabienpenso-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:> On 4/28/05, John Wells <lists-y8WhZ5XeQqVfbyii3fMa5/Z4XP/Yx64J@public.gmane.org> wrote: > > Howard Roberts said: > > > To me, the API docs are more in the style of a quick reference guide for > > > the experienced Rails developer, and the wiki is presents little nuggest > > > of code that, while helpful, still don''t seem to ''glue it all together.'' > > (...) > > Same here, I don''t feel alone anymore. I am also still wondering > what''s so marvelous about rails which I missed, except the fact it''s > slooooow :(. > > John, I also read typo, tried to add a "board" feature on > http://penso.info/blog/tribune/ but I got javascript bug. And I just > had to reboot the vserver because too much ''ruby'' instance and I > couldn''t log in through my ssh anymore. > > -- > http://penso.info/ > _______________________________________________ > Rails mailing list > Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org > http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails >-- The years ahead pick up their dark bags. They move closer. There''s a slight rise in the silence then nothing. -- (If you''re receiving this in response to mail sent to bluczkie-OM76b2Iv3yLQjUSlxSEPGw@public.gmane.org, don''t be concerned This is my new address, but mail will be forwarded here indefinitely)
Trevor Squires wrote:> > Well, this old-geezer-from-the-last-century uses Chatzilla > (mozilla/firefox plugin) when in front of a windows box. > > Trevor > > On 28-Apr-05, at 7:45 AM, DAve wrote: >> >> I know this may sound silly to some of you, I''ve been doing internet >> work since 96 (after a long hiatus from COBOL and JCL). I''ve used >> mostly Macs and Unix (FreeBSD, Slackware, Solaris). Currently I am on >> a XP Pro laptop. >> >> What is a good IRC client? The selection is staggering and believe it >> or not I''ve never used IRC. No "old man" comments please ;^) >>Chatzilla runs like a top and seems to work fine in FireFox. Thanks to everyone for the suggestions! DAve