On 2017-08-14 5:53 AM, peter dalgaard wrote:>> On 14 Aug 2017, at 10:13 , Troels Ring <tring at gvdnet.dk> wrote: >> >> Dear friends - I hope you will accept a naive question on lm: R version 3.4.1, Windows 10 >> >> I have 204 "baskets" of three types corresponding to factor F, each of size from 2 to 33 containing measurements, and need to know if the standard deviation on the measurements in each basket,sdd, is different across types, F. Plotting the observed sdd versus the sizes from 2 to 33, called "k" , does show a decreasing spread as k increases towards 33. >> >> I tried lm(sdd ~ F,weight=k) and got different results if omitting the weight argument but would it be the correct way to use sqrt(k) as weight instead? >> > I doubt that there is a "correct" way, but theory says that if the baskets have the same SD and data are normally distributed, then the variance of the sample VARIANCE is proportional to 1/f = 1/(k-1). Weights in lm are inverse-variance, so the "natural" thing to do would seem to be to regress the square of sdd with weights (k-1). > > (If the distribution is not normal, the variance of the sample variance is complicated by a term that involves both n and the excess kurtosis, whereas the variance of the sample SD is complicated in any case. All according to the gospel of St.Google.)The Wikipedia article on "standard deviation" gives the more general formula. (That article does NOT give a citation for that formula. I you know one, please add it -- or post it here, to make it easier for someone else to add it.) Thanks, Peter. Spencer Graves> > -pd > > >> Best wishes >> >> Troels Ring >> Aalborg, Denmark >> >> ______________________________________________ >> R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.

> On 14 Aug 2017, at 13:43 , Spencer Graves <spencer.graves at effectivedefense.org> wrote: > > > > On 2017-08-14 5:53 AM, peter dalgaard wrote: >>> On 14 Aug 2017, at 10:13 , Troels Ring <tring at gvdnet.dk> wrote: >>> >>> Dear friends - I hope you will accept a naive question on lm: R version 3.4.1, Windows 10 >>> >>> I have 204 "baskets" of three types corresponding to factor F, each of size from 2 to 33 containing measurements, and need to know if the standard deviation on the measurements in each basket,sdd, is different across types, F. Plotting the observed sdd versus the sizes from 2 to 33, called "k" , does show a decreasing spread as k increases towards 33. >>> >>> I tried lm(sdd ~ F,weight=k) and got different results if omitting the weight argument but would it be the correct way to use sqrt(k) as weight instead? >>> >> I doubt that there is a "correct" way, but theory says that if the baskets have the same SD and data are normally distributed, then the variance of the sample VARIANCE is proportional to 1/f = 1/(k-1). Weights in lm are inverse-variance, so the "natural" thing to do would seem to be to regress the square of sdd with weights (k-1). >> >> (If the distribution is not normal, the variance of the sample variance is complicated by a term that involves both n and the excess kurtosis, whereas the variance of the sample SD is complicated in any case. All according to the gospel of St.Google.) > > > The Wikipedia article on "standard deviation" gives the more general formula. (That article does NOT give a citation for that formula. I you know one, please add it -- or post it here, to make it easier for someone else to add it.) >Er, I don't see that (i.e. var(S) etc.) in there? My sources were https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/72975/variance-of-sample-variance https://stats.stackexchange.com/questions/631/standard-deviation-of-standard-deviation which contains further links, but no references to publications. I suspect that this stuff is easy enough to do ab initio that people don't bother to fire up a literature search. -pd> > Thanks, Peter. > Spencer Graves >> >> -pd >> >> >>> Best wishes >>> >>> Troels Ring >>> Aalborg, Denmark >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >>> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.-- Peter Dalgaard, Professor, Center for Statistics, Copenhagen Business School Solbjerg Plads 3, 2000 Frederiksberg, Denmark Phone: (+45)38153501 Office: A 4.23 Email: pd.mes at cbs.dk Priv: PDalgd at gmail.com

> On Aug 14, 2017, at 5:17 AM, peter dalgaard <pdalgd at gmail.com> wrote: > > >> On 14 Aug 2017, at 13:43 , Spencer Graves <spencer.graves at effectivedefense.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2017-08-14 5:53 AM, peter dalgaard wrote: >>>> On 14 Aug 2017, at 10:13 , Troels Ring <tring at gvdnet.dk> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear friends - I hope you will accept a naive question on lm: R version 3.4.1, Windows 10 >>>> >>>> I have 204 "baskets" of three types corresponding to factor F, each of size from 2 to 33 containing measurements, and need to know if the standard deviation on the measurements in each basket,sdd, is different across types, F. Plotting the observed sdd versus the sizes from 2 to 33, called "k" , does show a decreasing spread as k increases towards 33. >>>> >>>> I tried lm(sdd ~ F,weight=k) and got different results if omitting the weight argument but would it be the correct way to use sqrt(k) as weight instead? >>>> >>> I doubt that there is a "correct" way, but theory says that if the baskets have the same SD and data are normally distributed, then the variance of the sample VARIANCE is proportional to 1/f = 1/(k-1). Weights in lm are inverse-variance, so the "natural" thing to do would seem to be to regress the square of sdd with weights (k-1). >>> >>> (If the distribution is not normal, the variance of the sample variance is complicated by a term that involves both n and the excess kurtosis, whereas the variance of the sample SD is complicated in any case. All according to the gospel of St.Google.) >> >> >> The Wikipedia article on "standard deviation" gives the more general formula. (That article does NOT give a citation for that formula. I you know one, please add it -- or post it here, to make it easier for someone else to add it.) >> > > Er, I don't see that (i.e. var(S) etc.) in there? > > My sources were > > https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/72975/variance-of-sample-variance > https://stats.stackexchange.com/questions/631/standard-deviation-of-standard-deviation > > which contains further links, but no references to publications. I suspect that this stuff is easy enough to do ab initio that people don't bother to fire up a literature search.I don't see why that page doesn't cite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unbiased_estimation_of_standard_deviation ... which had several citations including to Johnson, Kotz and Balakrishnan, v 1, ch 13 sect 8.2. I dug out my copy from the bottom of a large pile of tomes that I had not reshelved and can confirm that the formula is almost (but not quite) the same as appears in print. JK&M give a formula (p 127) with no derivation or citation: E[S] = sigma*( 2/n )^(1/2)*Gamma(n/2)/Gamma[ (n-1)/2 ] Whereas the Wikipedia page citing a 1968 TAS article gives: E[S] = sigma*( 2/(n-1) )^(1/2)*Gamma(n/2)/Gamma[ (n-1)/2 ] I looked up the Bloch note online: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00031305.1968.10480476?journalCode=utas20 And it does not have the formula. It was a note on an earlier article by Cureton, who in turn cited an American Journal of Psychology article by Holtxman(1950, v63, 615-617). http://amstat.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00031305.1968.10480435?src=recsys Searching on that article I see the first hit is a citation to some R documentation for hte MBESS::s.u function, which does implement it as recommended by Holtzman. If I were voting on this I would put greater weight on the JK&M but that's just because it is incredibly likely that I could do the math. Best; David.> > -pd > > >> >> Thanks, Peter. >> Spencer Graves >>> >>> -pd >>>David Winsemius Alameda, CA, USA 'Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.' -Gehm's Corollary to Clarke's Third Law