llvm dev - Nov 2019 - [cfe-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

There *are* open-source Discord clients, 3rd party tools and the like. The
corporation behind Discord is just not authorising you legally to use any
of those tools at hand. There are rarely any technical barriers or
countermeasures, though.

Roman Lebedev via cfe-dev <cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org> ezt írta (időpont:
2019.
nov. 18., H, 16:08):
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:10 PM Nico Weber via cfe-dev
> <cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >
> > FWIW I'm a fan of using open-source stuff for open-source
projects.
> Discourse looks open source, but Discord doesn't as far as I can tell
(?).
> +1. I don't believe this decision was well thought-through.
> The Discord's ToS, lack of open-source clients (if you can even call
> the situation like that,
> feels like ICQ/Skype all over again), centralization, etc; are pretty
> 'major' regressions.
>
> As a general, not really LLVM-specific remark,
> I find it worrying that the noble goal of usability improvement/entry
> barrier lowering is being applied with only said endgoal in mind
> and no real assessment of the approach taken, the effect produced
> by such approach and the cost it incurs on the existing
> ecosystem/community/etc.
> But this is very much the norm in nowadays world :/
>
>
> Roman.
>
> > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 3:15 AM Chandler Carruth via cfe-dev <
> cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello folks,
> >>
> >> I sent the message quoted below to llvm-dev@ just now, but it
applies
> to the whole community so sending an FYI here. Probably best to follow up
> w/ discussion on llvm-dev.
> >>
> >> The archive link for reference is here:
> >> http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2019-November/136880.html
> >>
> >> On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 11:48 PM Chandler Carruth <chandlerc at
gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hello everyone,
> >>>
> >>> Short version:
> >>> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat
(similar to IRC)
> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> >>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> >>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
> >>>
> >>> Please join and use these new services. They are only
partially set up
> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out
to
> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
> services have dedicated feedback channels.
> >>>
> >>> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions,
although try
> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the
> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the
discussion
> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
> >>>
> >>> Longer version & more details:
> >>> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting,
folks
> expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial
> amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or
> contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form
> discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for
> newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these
> areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us
> as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious
> IRC. ;]
> >>>
> >>> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out
there and
> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord
> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> >>> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> >>> https://llvm.discourse.group/
> >>>
> >>> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be
great for
> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both
> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and
we
> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
> >>>
> >>> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> >>> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in
one place,
> etc.
> >>>
> >>> See the plan here:
>
https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
> >>>
> >>> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
> >>> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving
a
> similarly email-focused workflow.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people
to seriously try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
> >>>
> >>> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT
workshop for
> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a
> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to
> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set
> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially
around
> Discord bots.
> >>>
> >>> -Chandler
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> cfe-dev mailing list
> >> cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org
> >> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > cfe-dev mailing list
> > cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org
> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev
> _______________________________________________
> cfe-dev mailing list
> cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev
>
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On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 08:44, Whisperity via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> There *are* open-source Discord clients, 3rd party tools and the like.
This is a big uphill fight that is rarelly worthy. Not to mention
privacy guarantees and terms and conditions that are not "fixed" by
OSS tooling.
> The corporation behind Discord is just not authorising you legally to use
any of those tools at hand.
That doesn't sound good.

Also, many companies have "approved list" of software, which a
"gaming
chat app" will rarely be.

I'd have to subvert  the private license *and* my company's security
policies. I can assure you, this won't end well.

Slack isn't much better in general, tbh, but more companies allow them
on corporate networks.

IRC has a ton of problems, too, but it's our default. We should only
move to a better tool, not a different tool. We want to bring in new
people without alienating old people, like me.

Discourse seems to be OSS GPLv2, so we could host our own and apply
our own CoC / moderating if providers are not able to meet our needs.
I have real trouble using web BBSs (text ones over dialup were fine),
so I'd really appreciate an email/subscription mechanism.

If we do select a provider (for Discourse, another or even Stack
Overflow), we need to make sure we'll always be able to download the
whole history and move to another service if the terms stop being
reasonable (or we get tired of it).

This was a big point in using Github (vs. self-hosted): it's git, we
can move out whenever we want. We should keep that constraint for
every tool we use.

--renato

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:18 PM Renato Golin <rengolin at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 at 08:44, Whisperity via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> > There *are* open-source Discord clients, 3rd party tools and the like.
>
> This is a big uphill fight that is rarelly worthy. Not to mention
> privacy guarantees and terms and conditions that are not "fixed"
by
> OSS tooling.
>
> > The corporation behind Discord is just not authorising you legally to
use any of those tools at hand.
>
> That doesn't sound good.
>
> Also, many companies have "approved list" of software, which a
"gaming
> chat app" will rarely be.
>
> I'd have to subvert  the private license *and* my company's
security
> policies. I can assure you, this won't end well.
>
> Slack isn't much better in general, tbh, but more companies allow them
> on corporate networks.
>
> IRC has a ton of problems, too, but it's our default. We should only
> move to a better tool, not a different tool. We want to bring in new
> people without alienating old people, like me.
>
> Discourse seems to be OSS GPLv2, so we could host our own and apply
> our own CoC / moderating if providers are not able to meet our needs.
> I have real trouble using web BBSs (text ones over dialup were fine),
> so I'd really appreciate an email/subscription mechanism.
>
> If we do select a provider (for Discourse, another or even Stack
> Overflow), we need to make sure we'll always be able to download the
> whole history and move to another service if the terms stop being
> reasonable (or we get tired of it).
>
> This was a big point in using Github (vs. self-hosted): it's git, we
> can move out whenever we want. We should keep that constraint for
> every tool we use.
+1.

All this disscussion is slightly jumbled together,because i think
a move from IRC to discord/slack/etc, and a move from
mailing lists to Discourse, are two *very* different discussions.
I think latter (provided there is still mail integration!) may be
easy to sell. But the choice of tools in former is just a non-starter.

If anything, Matrix.org does indeed seem like an (only) possible
alternative there.
> --renato
Roman

How to open llvm and clang source tree in QtCreator in same project.

I need to write project using clang but also I need to navigate through llvm
sources (not only headers).

Previous versions of llvm allow clang sources to be located in llvm / tools /
clang, but it seems that current versions need clang (and libcxx, ...) in
separate directories. So when I open main CmakeList of llvm in QtCreator there
is no clang in QtCreator project.

Naturally I can preinstall llvm libraries and clang cmake automatically will
find them and will dinamically linkclang with then. But I need also llvm sources
to be seen in IDE.<br /><div><br /></div>

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 1:18 AM Renato Golin via cfe-dev <
cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> If we do select a provider (for Discourse, another or even Stack
> Overflow), we need to make sure we'll always be able to download the
> whole history and move to another service if the terms stop being
> reasonable (or we get tired of it).
>
I disagree.   This thread is about an IRC replacement, not about a forum
replacement . It is inherently for discussions of a transient nature whose
history need not be preserved.  Like "Hey @rengolin, what's the status
of
bug N that you were looking at?"  Even idle chit-chat and banter.  Exactly
the kinds of discussions that preserving history is not useful for.
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